PDGA Board of Director Elections

[txmxer]

Fun fact. When scientists developed the IQ Test it originally had random questions and those infernal women scored 35 points higher on average than men. The scientists realized that would be a huge barrier to acceptance of the test, so they started tracking which questions men and women did better on and weighted the test with questions s to cause each gender to average 100 IQ points. In doing so, the standard deviation and mean for women were rendered much smaller than for men, so the highest end and lowest end scores mostly go to men. Surely the same would not have occurred if men tended to score higher than women. Happily for the scientists, the early IQ tests were heavy in questions about yachting and tulip bulbs and other things the privileged, wealthy elite were more likely to answer correctly, so the skew was in favor of those people. The scientists didn't do anything about that, of course. Class and racial scoring differences continue today, and the highest scores still tend to go to men. Curiously, the average gay man has an IQ score of 125, and the average transwoman has an IQ score of 135.

You mean they fixed the IQ tests when they realized they were erroneous?

 

[Dingus]

Lia Thompson was setting new records before she started estrogen

Could you spare a source on this, as wikipedia and my google search doesn't validate your claim?

 

[ChrisWoj]

Could you spare a source on this, as wikipedia and my google search doesn't validate your claim?

I think jenb overstated it slightly, but the fact is that Lia Thomas was on pace to be one of the best male swimmers in the country by her senior year as a male. A top 6 in the nation time in her primary event as a freshman, second in Ivy in three events as a sophomore. If you'd told me that athlete would win an NCAA title by senior year I would not have been surprised. And after transitioning that's what she did - she won one NCAA title and she didn't break any NCAA records.

 

[jenb]

Could you spare a source on this, as wikipedia and my google search doesn't validate your claim?

An article I read awhile back mentioned records set in high school iirc. Recently, I have not been able to locate that article. I did find "As a freshman, Thomas set a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle, the 6th-fastest men's time in the country. "

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/22/us/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer-ivy-league/index.html

I have found mentions of her being a "star swimmer" and an "All American" in high school. I'll let you know if I find the info on the records she broke. Notably, she may not have started estrogen right away, but it's fairly common for trans women to start anti androgens as soon as they turn 18 or earlier (with parental permission) and start transitioning later.

 

[jenb]

Could you spare a source on this, as wikipedia and my google search doesn't validate your claim?

https://swimswam.com/will-thomas-sets-pool-record-penn-hosts-west-chester/

Closest thing I've found so far relates to her breaking a pool record and ranking 4th in her conference during her freshman year in college.

 

[R-Ogre]

Passive discouragement of a group that already feels "othered" is enough to discourage many.
No one says there is active discouragement; passive is effective enough to achieve the same result.

How many men have rolled their eyes when they drew the one single woman present?
How many women have seen that man roll their eyes?

How many women have stayed home to look after the kids while the boyfirend or husband went out to play that tournament?
How often did the man stay home to "allow" their woman or girlfriend to go and play instead?
Even just the "allow" is enough of societal expectation and imbalance.
It's not supposed to be the woman's job raising the kid; it's a shared responsibility.

I (as a dude, married to a woman, with 3 kids) have been fortunate to have a job for the last 4+ years where I've been either off work or working on-call at home a lot of the time. Lemme tell ya, the insight I've gained into our society's norms in this respect, and how much of it I'd internalized really shook up my entire worldview about gender roles, home life, even our economic system. There is so much truth in your post here.

 

[jenb]

How many men have rolled their eyes when they drew the one single woman present?
How many women have seen that man roll their eyes?

More like threw a tantrum and left, peeling rubber out of the parking lot.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Laura, I have only one question for you. And the answer will require a serious conversation with yourself. But I am very curious of the answer.

Is it possible that living life as a male for 30+ years may have given you physical and even mental advantages over a woman who has never had that opportunity? Is it possible that all of those years being a man and treated as a man gives you a slight mental edge over those females who never had that opportunity to experience life as a male?

I totally understand that you are fully a woman now, but did having prior experience as a male give you any advantages over a female who never experienced that?

That's really the only question that matters in the discussion.

Congratulations on getting elected again.

Thank you for this question; you're the first person to address any "nurture" questions w/r/t sports.

I did get the "nurture" side of male advantage yes, but I think I only got a smidge of it; not the full dose for sure. and I "forced myself to", because I felt I had to, to be able to successfully pretend to be a boy.
My parents didn't hone, or stimulate it; I'd even say they "discouraged" it. They were horribly unathletically focused in their body and mind.
I never ever "threw a ball" with either parent.

The most hilarious thing is, this totally showed when I first tried to "impress a girl I had a crush on".
We were outside of my house with a group of friends, and my brother and sister, playing ball, with the side of our house being "the goal".
I started to take the ball, head butt it against the wall, and trying to do that without the ball dropping to the floor".
My mom, who was annoyed by the constant, now almost rhythmical, banging against the wall, came outside and saw me, and made a remark about it "are you trying to impress her?"

Already from about 6 years of age, I never felt "a boy", (I didn't act out by dressing up in my mom's clothing until age 10), but feeling terribly guilty towards the universe for not being happy with the cards I was dealt, I realised I could only survive by basically doing the whole-body-version of "sticking my fingers in my ears and saying "lalala, I can't hear you, I can't hear you", pretending the girl inside me screaming to be acknowledged wasn't there.

In the same way, the job that I have, working as "a roadie" (deprecated and condescending term, but makes it easier for people outside of that industry to get (I know you DO understand my job) in the live music industry; I am convinced I chose that "to be able to hide as a sheep (woman) among wolves (men) without being caught.
I masked the "not being a wolf" by focusing hard on the actual WORK part of that "lifestyle choice"; I never partook in the sex, drugs&rock'n'roll part of that "lifestyle".

Okay, back to sports.

I played association football, the "manliest sport", in my opinion, my mom even said "that sport is too aggressive, I don't want you to." Four years later, I was finally allowed to.

I've never been remotely athletic; the only two sporty activities I fared fairly well at were long distance running and cycling (never competitely aside from one universite relay race - I ran one of the longest distances); because I could - for lack of a better word - "punish my body" then (remarkably easy to achieve, actually, when that body isn't really YOURS: i was stuck in it, and had to make do - I made sure life and myself banged it up as badly as possible without doing illegal things, I just passively self-destructed); by going into the red all the time.

(I'm learning things about myself, even now, putting some of this in writing for the first time. I knew most of it, but not connected all of the dots throughout my life)

Acknowledging there is a mental side to being (forcibly) socialised as a man, w/r/t life in general, but sports in particular is good.
It is an aspect that is much more important than people want to give it credit.
It is indelibly part of "male privilege", and that is as uncomfortable a discussion as "white privilege" for most.

I "taught" myself to be competitive; it was never "inside of me", but I gathered from all of the men and boys around me, that "being competitive" was required.
I never wanted to best OTHERS, I wanted to beat (in positive and negative connotations) myself. See the going in the red when doing long distance running and cycling.

It never remotely compared with what society and cisgender men consider "competitive" (beating the other, coming out victorious).
Let's call my version "competitive light".

That one competitive round we played together, TDTM I in 2013, with Barrett Johnson and Feldberg. Do you know how I went into that round?

"Okay, Feldberg is 1039 rated, I am 860 rated. I figure it's a bit harder as a course (it turned out to be 8 points per stroke difference) that should be about 22-24 strokes difference separating us by the time we're done with hole 18, and that will give me my player rating as a round rating if I can keep it in that 22-24 difference range. Let's go!"
We were 24 strokes apart after round 1. I played 868 (+8) disc golf, and I was proud of my accomplishment.

-

There is a "nature" component to my transition too.

Pre HRT, I peaked at a 905 rating in 2015; I was hoping I could one day hit 915, but it wasn't to be; I spent 6 months as a 900+ man.
Ironically enough, my sliding back under 900 completely overlapped with me learning to accept myself as a woman.
As I - on the mental side - started unlearning "the manly competitiveness", I hovered in the mid 890's, and that was okay.
Fast forward to a year later, the start of HRT, and my ratings free fall started. My max usable distance and stamina were the first to crumble.
I went from easily playing 4 rounds a day to barely making it through the 2nd (by hole 13-15 2nd round, I'd typically lose steam), and my distance went from about 380-390 to 290-300ft.

By the time I was reclassified as "eligible to compete in gender-based divisions", I was as low-rated as 874/869, that was after 16 months of being free of testosterone.

Being able to play in gender-based divisions was a big mental boost for me, but not in the way you'd expect.
"ah, finally not haivng to keep up with the men, I can finally play where I belong" That removed a lot of anxiety and stress for me. I played with less "have to" in my body and mind; I played with "allowed to" in my mind.
The only thing where my disc golf skills improved were "c1 putting" (that had a trickle down effect on part of c2 putting).

I improved there (I started practicing my putting routine) because I understood that I could never outthrow my competition again (I never could, but at least I could sort of keep up). Remember TDTM I? You, Barrett, and Feldberg typically outthrew me by 50-100ft (Barrett sometimes more, he has a looong drive) on the holes that permitted full drives to be sent.
I worked my rating back up to 909 (new max), now 906.

Because of being a proficient c1 putter. (c1x % averages are 80-85, I get 100% occasionally) - HOFC2019, R2, I ranked 4th in c1x, and 2nd in c2, and conesequentially, I ranked 1st in gained putting. I sucked in every other stat.

With my 280-290 drive nowadays, I can outthrow women that are rated well below me, but I end up with shortest drives against women rated like I am (I played Lexington Open last May against Macie Velediaz, Holly Finley, Nina Guerrero, Ali Smith, Taylor Crammer, Stacie Hass) My drives were typically 30-60ft shorter than that of my peers.

TL;DR version.
Yes, "nature" matters in sports. "nurture" does more than we want to admit to.

My story with "nurture" is troubled (decidedly under-performing compared to cis boys, possibly a slight advantage over cis girls) because I had to look for it internally with a torch, and found something that I moulded into "competitiveness" (seen as a male trait), rather than my surrounding stimulating/honing (like happens with boys) what was readily available within.

 

[gingerandhoney]

asking about physical advantages is obvious.

Asking about mental advantages is a different ball game. Maybe you might want to reconsider your question?

I'll give you a for instance--a woman doesn't have the right mentality to be a leader (CEO, POTUS, etc.). These are all positions that people have taken over the years. By asking that question, you are applying the same logic to disc golf.

You're right, it's a question that is "troubled" to a large degree".
But I decided to answer anyway; I play with my cards on the table, open, in life.

(In this discussion in general, not here on dgcr, I am being accused of such nefarious and duplicitous activity.)

see https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr6dG_loWf5d1iTu2ifF5og who has been running a crusade against me for the last 6 months, constantly deliberately pulling things I said out of context and framing it as "Laura caused all of this **** deliberately and she's lying to your face about it"

 

[gingerandhoney]

When I think of mental differences I'm referring more about the way men are treated vs women. It's pretty obvious that women are treated differently than men are so does that have any effect on the players mental abilities?

I don't mean if they are smarter. I'm just curious if being treated as a man for so many years, do they have different coping mechanisms or any other inherent advantages that a women who didn't have these experiences might have?

Same for the physical part. It's really the only thing that matters. If the answer is yes even if it's a doubtful yes or they don't want to admit yes, then something must change.

My only coping mechanisms used were:

to myself "Lalala, I can't hear you (Laura). Shut up!"

to the outside world: "this is the rule, this is the law" (I could not and would not answer from my soul/feeling/heart; there was no "me")
I used "first person narrative", but I technically spoke in 3rd person observer mode, like I wasn't in the room, like I was unaffected.

 

[gingerandhoney]

You really interpreted what I was trying to say wrong. I think women are superior to men actually. My lady proves it to me daily.

I just wonder if being treated as a male vs a female growing up has any sort of inherit advantages over someone who never had that experience. It's also a question that can't be answered by anyone other than someone who has gone through a transformation.

Male privilege!

I happily discarded it when I got the chance.
Knowing full well I dove off the privilege platform, head first, no safety, when I started telling the world I was never a boy.

 

[gingerandhoney]

I (as a dude, married to a woman, with 3 kids) have been fortunate to have a job for the last 4+ years where I've been either off work or working on-call at home a lot of the time. Lemme tell ya, the insight I've gained into our society's norms in this respect, and how much of it I'd internalized really shook up my entire worldview about gender roles, home life, even our economic system. There is so much truth in your post here.

Thank you for stating that out loud for all to read! <3

 

[gingerandhoney]

More like threw a tantrum and left, peeling rubber out of the parking lot.

I am so sorry you had to witness that!

 

[TimSyl]

Pure projection. It is not OK to hate and fear those that are different than you and those you don't agree with. You have not posted any cognizant opinion. Self actualization and growth is a personal journey...read a book, find a mentor and seek your path. :thmbup:

No more attention for you.

ru4por. I have read most, if not all of this thread, why do you continue to say people opposed to this have "hate and fear". Someone having differing opinions than you does not make them "haters" or "fear mongerers".

 

[GMcAtee]

ru4por. I have read most, if not all of this thread, why do you continue to say people opposed to this have "hate and fear". Someone having differing opinions than you does not make them "haters" or "fear mongerers".

ru4por is right though. I hate seeing the women's division get destroyed by opportunists, and fear this will slow growth for women's disc golf.

 

[dmoore1998]

How many men have rolled their eyes when they drew the one single woman present?
How many women have seen that man roll their eyes?

Is it common practice where you're from to go around the group and tell everyone if you identify as a man or woman before you play? I've played quite a few random doubles leagues, but I've never been asked to identify my gender before.

 

[gingerandhoney]

@GMcAtee.

Calling transgender women opportunists is completely and utterly missing the point of what it is to be transgender.

Even calling transgender women IN SPORTS opprtunists is completely and utterly missing the point of what it is to be transgender.

But oh no, "we must protect women's sports!"

I call BS on that. It was never about protecting women's sports.

To quote Ella Hansen (31jul22):
"It's a lot of crickets about gender equity/title nine in women's sports until a trans woman is successful. If you really want to show that you care about women's sports, there's so many more things you can do to help than tear someone down."

Remember the outcry about DGPT deciding to write the SAME CHEQUE to the FPO champion as they did to the MPO champion?!?!?!?

Where were you and yours protecting women's sports then?!?!?!?

The MPO players in the DGPT Championship applauded DGPT's move.
The FPO players in the DGPT Championship applauded DGPT's move.
The FPO* players not in the DGPT Championship applauded DGPT's move.
The FA1* players not in the DGPT Championship applauded DGPT's move.

The (I am horribly generalising here, but you'll have to excuse me) the "MPO* and MA1* players not in the DGPT Championship" cried in unsion: ""This is so unfair, the FPO champion should get less than the MPO champion!" (, because ....insert random "facts" on participation and rating levels, and opinions)

The DGPT did an amazing thing to level the playing field for women there. Both for equality, and for equity.


* = For the sake of brevity I am using the mixed and women's top level divisional bracket codes, I am not saying this did not involve MA55 or FA3 players)

 

[gingerandhoney]

Is it common practice where you're from to go around the group and tell everyone if you identify as a man or woman before you play? I've played quite a few random doubles leagues, but I've never been asked to identify my gender before.

Got troll?

 

[dmoore1998]

Got troll?

Ahhhh yes...exactly what we want from board members. When you show a bias towards someone's outer appearance, just insult the person who points out your bias instead of dealing with your own internal flaws.

Don't take responsibility for your flaws, deflect deflect deflect miss politician.

You of all people should understand that women don't look one certain way...or even give off the appearance of a "traditional" woman.

 

[GMcAtee]

@GMcAtee.

Calling transgender women opportunists is completely and utterly missing the point of what it is to be transgender.

Even calling transgender women IN SPORTS opprtunists is completely and utterly missing the point of what it is to be transgender.

But oh no, "we must protect women's sports!"

I call BS on that. It was never about protecting women's sports.

To quote Ella Hansen (31jul22):
"It's a lot of crickets about gender equity/title nine in women's sports until a trans woman is successful. If you really want to show that you care about women's sports, there's so many more things you can do to help than tear someone down."

Remember the outcry about DGPT deciding to write the SAME CHEQUE to the FPO champion as they did to the MPO champion?!?!?!?

Where were you and yours protecting women's sports then?!?!?!?

The MPO players in the DGPT Championship applauded DGPT's move.
The FPO players in the DGPT Championship applauded DGPT's move.
The FPO* players not in the DGPT Championship applauded DGPT's move.
The FA1* players not in the DGPT Championship applauded DGPT's move.

The (I am horribly generalising here, but you'll have to excuse me) the "MPO* and MA1* players not in the DGPT Championship" cried in unsion: ""This is so unfair, the FPO champion should get less than the MPO champion!" (, because ....insert random "facts" on participation and rating levels, and opinions)

The DGPT did an amazing thing to level the playing field for women there. Both for equality, and for equity.


* = For the sake of brevity I am using the mixed and women's top level divisional bracket codes, I am not saying this did not involve MA55 or FA3 players)

I stated my case, and that's where I stand. All you're doing is trying to put words in my mouth.