Post-production Hot Stamps are Illegal

[PastorofMuppets]

Random grey area. For DDO in 2022, part of your player's pack was a clean unstamped Culprit. You then went to the DDO warehouse and walked through everything to their hot stamping machines and stamped your own disc. Pretty neat part of DDO. So is that disc legal or not? Latitude 64 made the disc (and is the manufacturer), DD purchased them stamp free, you received it stamp free, and you physically stamped the disc yourself (using DD's stamping machine). I would never argue that the discs wouldn't be PDGA tournament legal, but technically if you really wanted to get finicky, it's illegal.

And this just goes to show how dumb this rule is on it's face.

 

[uncle pennybags]

Random grey area. For DDO in 2022, part of your player's pack was a clean unstamped Culprit. You then went to the DDO warehouse and walked through everything to their hot stamping machines and stamped your own disc. Pretty neat part of DDO. So is that disc legal or not? Latitude 64 made the disc (and is the manufacturer), DD purchased them stamp free, you received it stamp free, and you physically stamped the disc yourself (using DD's stamping machine). I would never argue that the discs wouldn't be PDGA tournament legal, but technically if you really wanted to get finicky, it's illegal.

And this just goes to show how dumb this rule is on it's face.

I was just about to post this from my time at GBO in 2016....same kind of deal. I'm pretty sure I didn't see any injection molding machines in the warehouse then.

The hot stamping machine is not super fancy. I'm not sure about the stamp itself, but I'd hazard a guess that it's a pretty cheap thing to get into for customizing discs.

 

[Countchunkula]

Random grey area. For DDO in 2022, part of your player's pack was a clean unstamped Culprit. You then went to the DDO warehouse and walked through everything to their hot stamping machines and stamped your own disc. Pretty neat part of DDO. So is that disc legal or not? Latitude 64 made the disc (and is the manufacturer), DD purchased them stamp free, you received it stamp free, and you physically stamped the disc yourself (using DD's stamping machine). I would never argue that the discs wouldn't be PDGA tournament legal, but technically if you really wanted to get finicky, it's illegal.

And this just goes to show how dumb this rule is on it's face.

First off, that's really cool! As someone who's always been fascinated by how things are made, I would love to have that opportunity.

Secondly, how do you define manufacturer here is important. In some ways, you could consider DD a manufacturer although they're using a contract manufacturer (Lat64) to do the production. Especially in the case you described. Discs are generally sold with a hot stamp. You could say that the blank discs received from Lat 64 were not finished goods until they were hotstamped at DD's warehouse. Making DD the manufacturer (of that specific batch) and Lat 64 a supplier.

In the case of the company I work for, although we have a plant of our own, product for our largest customer is produced at the factory of one of our sister companies. As far as our customer is concerned, we are the manufacturer and have all the responsibilities that go along with it.

We used to do buy/resell products where the only thing done at our plant was slapping a label on a motor we'd bought from someone else, which is basically what happened in your example.

 

[Rastnav]

First off, that's really cool! As someone who's always been fascinated by how things are made, I would love to have that opportunity.

Secondly, how do you define manufacturer here is important. In some ways, you could consider DD a manufacturer although they're using a contract manufacturer (Lat64) to do the production. Especially in the case you described. Discs are generally sold with a hot stamp. You could say that the blank discs received from Lat 64 were not finished goods until they were hotstamped at DD's warehouse. Making DD the manufacturer (of that specific batch) and Lat 64 a supplier.

In the case of the company I work for, although we have a plant of our own, product for our largest customer is produced at the factory of one of our sister companies. As far as our customer is concerned, we are the manufacturer and have all the responsibilities that go along with it.

We used to do buy/resell products where the only thing done at our plant was slapping a label on a motor we'd bought from someone else, which is basically what happened in your example.

I agree this is super cool. I'd love to be able to do something like that. But, none of the people actually doing the stamping were DD employees. Now imagine, say, an Am. OTB Open tournament that did the exact same thing. All of a sudden any ambiguity goes away.

Also, I have a bunch of OTB Open discs with OTB Open hot stamps on them. How would I even know where they were stamped? It's not as if they can't get blank discs from MVP.

You might ask why they would want to stamp them themselves and the answer would be that they would want to be able adjust to market demand. Which is the "hot" stamp? You won't know until you start sellling.

 

[biscoe]

Secondly, how do you define manufacturer here is important.

I would imagine that DD is seen as the manufacturer by the PDGA since the discs are approved under DD's name.

 

[biscoe]

I agree this is super cool. I'd love to be able to do something like that. But, none of the people actually doing the stamping were DD employees. Now imagine, say, an Am. OTB Open tournament that did the exact same thing. All of a sudden any ambiguity goes away.

Also, I have a bunch of OTB Open discs with OTB Open hot stamps on them. How would I even know where they were stamped? It's not as if they can't get blank discs from MVP.

You might ask why they would want to stamp them themselves and the answer would be that they would want to be able adjust to market demand. Which is the "hot" stamp? You won't know until you start sellling.

It has been a while since I tried but getting blank discs from manufacturers used to be fairly difficult- pretty sure Innova still won't let them out the door. (The way around that is to order a bottom stamp.)

 

[Rastnav]

It has been a while since I tried but getting blank discs from manufacturers used to be fairly difficult- pretty sure Innova still won't let them out the door. (The way around that is to order a bottom stamp.)

I just bought multiple blank discs from OTB and had them shipped directly to someone who put custom dye jobs on them. They were described as "dyers delight". I suppose they might have had the stamps wiped, but they look pristine.

In addition, none of the F2 discs from Innova have stamps (maybe a small F2? Can't remember atm)

 

[TheOtherBill]

The F2s all have stamps, but most are very light and wipe off easily. What about the stamps that press into the disc so much it leaves easily detectable lines in the top of the disc? That happens on many discs but seems to be another grey area, even though it isn't post-production, gouges in the flight plate would make the disc illegal.

 

[Countchunkula]

The F2s all have stamps, but most are very light and wipe off easily. What about the stamps that press into the disc so much it leaves easily detectable lines in the top of the disc? That happens on many discs but seems to be another grey area, even though it isn't post-production, gouges in the flight plate would make the disc illegal.

Afaik, nothing in the rules in regards to quality standards for manufacturers. What is acceptable is entirely up to them (in the short term and their customers in the long term). Whatever leaves the factory is acceptable. No post production modifications (except for a few exceptions).

I get what you're saying, but if it's the result of anything that happened at the manufacturer, it's kosher.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

How many DGPT players are bagging "illegal" discs?

This, ISTM, is one of the issues with the approach to the DG rules, that we don't officially recognize the importance of intent. This despite the fact that intent is implicit in certain rules.

Applying something to the disc intended to change the flight characteristics should be illegal, period. Applying something that doesn't actually change the flight characteristics, especially something that is in fact applied to legal discs all the time, cant be illegal if you expect people to take the rules, as written, seriously.

I think the intent, is to stop people with intent to alter the disc. Or that it is in frequent enough production that anyone has the opportunity to throw the same disc, it's not a rare one off.

Intent is a good word... Glow tape is a frequent issue with our crew when they hit a sanctioned tournament, we know it's wrong but generally most people don't care. The intent isn't to alter the disc, it's to find the dam thing at dusk or night golf. I have not seen anyone called on it yet, surprisingly.

Has there been a rash of people modifying discs? What made them so concerned? Is this an archaic rule with a poorly thought out update or some kind of pinch on 3rd party artwork? Many of us have been concerned about this for years, between flashing removal and lighter welds it's good that is acceptable to return a disc to "factory" intended shape and remove sharp or dangerous damage.

Is the PDGA trying to drive someone out of business? I say if it comes from a store and is readily available it should be legal, mostly I'm following because I'm concerned about legality of my DFX discs when I win the pro open... what a way to get DQ'd.

 

[Rastnav]

I think the intent, is to stop people with intent to alter the disc. Or that it is in frequent enough production that anyone has the opportunity to throw the same disc, it's not a rare one off.

Intent is a good word... Glow tape is a frequent issue with our crew when they hit a sanctioned tournament, we know it's wrong but generally most people don't care. The intent isn't to alter the disc, it's to find the dam thing at dusk or night golf. I have not seen anyone called on it yet, surprisingly.

Has there been a rash of people modifying discs? What made them so concerned? Is this an archaic rule with a poorly thought out update or some kind of pinch on 3rd party artwork? Many of us have been concerned about this for years, between flashing removal and lighter welds it's good that is acceptable to return a disc to "factory" intended shape and remove sharp or dangerous damage.

Is the PDGA trying to drive someone out of business? I say if it comes from a store and is readily available it should be legal, mostly I'm following because I'm concerned about legality of my DFX discs when I win the pro open... what a way to get DQ'd.

I don't know when the rule was introduced (too lazy to figure it out, I'm guessing I could?) but given a process that requiress approving discs, a rule that prevents modifying discs is almost inevitable.

Given that, preventing the addition or removal of any substantial amount of material makes for a nice clean line. That's what the current rule reads like. Some specific exceptions come in for an obvious reason, that wear and tear necessitates it.

The fact that hot stamps are legal at all, and fall under the ambiguous category of "production" is simple a kludge. The disc can have been made 3 years ago, sat in the warehouse, transferred to some other warehouse amd eventually hot stamped by a player with their own custom stamp in the warehouse, and it counts ad part of production. Heck it could have wandered around in a players van, then brought back to the warehouse and stamped.

Just make an exception for hot stamps.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I think that's the core of it right there.

There's no reason hot Stamos hahaha well maybe he should, but hot stamps should be legal. I think that should be immediately amended to allow them. The harm that may come to the sport with this policy and potential feel bad issues is worse than the harm of some bad hot Stamos. Stamps, I do not know any Stamos haha well OK both...( I seriously do not know why my phone knows this word, I have never Googled John...) I don't know of any addition to a disc being that offensive.

I have always been concerned about this paint job, my kid did it when she was 12 over a decade ago.. should this be illegal, I think not. I did sand some of the globs off haha.

 

[araytx]

Random grey area. For DDO in 2022, part of your player's pack was a clean unstamped Culprit. You then went to the DDO warehouse and walked through everything to their hot stamping machines and stamped your own disc. Pretty neat part of DDO. So is that disc legal or not? Latitude 64 made the disc (and is the manufacturer), DD purchased them stamp free, you received it stamp free, and you physically stamped the disc yourself (using DD's stamping machine). I would never argue that the discs wouldn't be PDGA tournament legal, but technically if you really wanted to get finicky, it's illegal.

And this just goes to show how dumb this rule is on it's face.

I was just about to post this from my time at GBO in 2016....same kind of deal. I'm pretty sure I didn't see any injection molding machines in the warehouse then.

The hot stamping machine is not super fancy. I'm not sure about the stamp itself, but I'd hazard a guess that it's a pretty cheap thing to get into for customizing discs.

C'mon gents. How many times have we all on these pages referred to Dynamic Discs as a "disc manufacturer?"

I agree this is super cool. I'd love to be able to do something like that. But, none of the people actually doing the stamping were DD employees. Now imagine, say, an Am. OTB Open tournament that did the exact same thing. All of a sudden any ambiguity goes away.

Also, I have a bunch of OTB Open discs with OTB Open hot stamps on them. How would I even know where they were stamped? It's not as if they can't get blank discs from MVP.

You might ask why they would want to stamp them themselves and the answer would be that they would want to be able adjust to market demand. Which is the "hot" stamp? You won't know until you start sellling.

I may be wrong but I think OTB is one as well.

And those were all done at DD under the supervision of a Dynamic Discs employee. Are you guys implying that a legit manufacturer can ONLY have its own paid employees working in on discs? No volunteers, no temp help, no people needing to serve their community service, etc., with full supervision of the company? Hmmmm.. stretching to try an make a point ... ?????

Afaik, nothing in the rules in regards to quality standards for manufacturers. What is acceptable is entirely up to them (in the short term and their customers in the long term). Whatever leaves the factory is acceptable. No post production modifications (except for a few exceptions).

I get what you're saying, but if it's the result of anything that happened at the manufacturer, it's kosher.

I'd like to think that there is something, possibly not known to the general public, in the relationship/contract/agreement/whatever between the manufacturers and PDGA that may contradict the assumption above.

 

[txmxer]

I think that's the core of it right there.

There's no reason hot Stamos hahaha well maybe he should, but hot stamps should be legal. I think that should be immediately amended to allow them. The harm that may come to the sport with this policy and potential feel bad issues is worse than the harm of some bad hot Stamos. Stamps, I do not know any Stamos haha well OK both...( I seriously do not know why my phone knows this word, I have never Googled John...) I don't know of any addition to a disc being that offensive.

I have always been concerned about this paint job, my kid did it when she was 12 over a decade ago.. should this be illegal, I think not. I did sand some of the globs off haha.

Hot Stamos? Seems very Freudian .

Lol

 

[Rastnav]

I may be wrong but I think OTB is one as well.

The PDGA does not list Only The Best Discs nor OTB as a manufacturer of any approved discs. All of the OTB Open stamped discs are MVP discs, as they are the disc manufacturer that sponsors the OTB Open.

As to hanging one's hat on whether the people are DD employees or not, the ridiculousness of the distinction is the whole point. Why does it matter whether the disc is stamped in a DD warehouse or not?

Imagine the exact same hot stamp machine brought in a van to DDO and "loaned out" to a local children's cancer charity. They collect donations and in turn let people hot stamp their own discs. No DD employee is present and it's not at a DD warehouse. There are just a bunch of custom hot stamps, a unique experience for fans and some money raised for kids. If you are telling me that the exact same hot stamps, applied by the same machine, change the legality of the disc not based on what they are, nor how they were applied, nor what equipment they were applied with, but based on the exact location in which they were stamped and whether or not a DD employee was "supervising", this seems to be distinction without a difference.

If you somehow think that's legal, but that some other hot stamp should be illegal because Powergrip, Flight Factory, or some other retailer applied it … I don't see the logic.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

If you have to split hairs and call in a lawyer that's not disc golf.

Someone should call Simon on his glitsch in a planned protest. If there's any damage being done its to "innocent" players, companies and artists who more than likely all love the sport.

 

[Rastnav]

If you have to split hairs and call in a lawyer that's not disc golf.

Someone should call Simon on his glitsch in a planned protest. If there's any damage being done its to "innocent" players, companies and artists who more than likely all love the sport.

Eh, I get the thought, but this basic impulse is, IMO, actually the problem.

The rules are written with the idea that they should be as simple as possible. At least that is what I have been led to believe by various posts from those who have been part of the rulemaking process, whether currently or in the past.

I believe there is an underlying assumption that this will make them easy to understand and easy to apply. However this can also make them easy to misunderstand and simple rules are frequently more complex to apply, because they revolve around interpretation.

You make a simple rule that says "don't add anything to the disc or it's illegal" and then interpret it so that the thing frequently added after the disc is actually made is still legal. This naturally leads to confusion, because how can hot stamps be illegal.

If I buy a disc directly from DD with a price sticker still on it, is it legal? If someone called me on that, I have a feeling the TD would tend to agree with the challenge, as "everyone" commonly thinks of price stickers to be obviously not part of producing the disc. What if I buy it from PIAS? But what if it was actually a used disc from DD? Do I have to take off one sticker, but not the other? The simple rule makes for one that is actually unclear.

Weight stickers (owing to the common practice at Discraft, and the fact that they are small and unobtrusive) seem to mostly get a pass. It all ends up being down to the general zeitgeist and tradition.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

C'mon gents. How many times have we all on these pages referred to Dynamic Discs as a "disc manufacturer?"

Congrats on missing the entire point of us pointing out how dumb this interpretation of the rule is. DD (in this case) or OTB, or Infinite, or Mint, or Hooligan etc all have contracts for other companies to manufacture their discs. Some stamp their own, some have the manufacturer stamp them for them. Is the only difference between that and you or I stamping our own discs a contract? What is your local club buys 1000 blanks and you guys stamp your club logo on it. According the to the PDGA, that's illegal. But certain retailers, who aren't even considered manufacturers by the authority of the old heads on this page, can post production stamp and it is legal. See the problem?

 

[PastorofMuppets]

There's no reason hot Stamos hahaha well maybe he should, but hot stamps should be legal.

I laughed so hard at this the first time I read it, that it scared my dog.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Eh, I get the thought, but this basic impulse is, IMO, actually the problem.

The rules are written with the idea that they should be as simple as possible. At least that is what I have been led to believe by various posts from those who have been part of the rulemaking process, whether currently or in the past.

So I think we are mostly saying the same thing. This shouldn't be that hard to interpret for an average player. Hot stamps should be legal, the "detectable with fingernail" rule is the problem, the intent originally is likely to stop someone from modifying the disc. Such as adding weight(s), wings, what have you, or perhaps even to stop the use of unsightly duct tape patching to a broken disc. We wouldn't want to look like bums

Perhaps it reads more like "... other than hot stamping.

Google keyboard is getting a bad review on yelp for its affair with Stamos.