Provisional Nuances

[Steve West]

This is a spin-off from the Broken Disk in Basket thread

What's the penalty for playing a provisional when the situation does not qualify? (Especially when the Competition Committee via Big Dog and others encourage players to take provisionals when the group is unclear on a ruling, presumably to save time per the provisional rule)

That's a good question.

First, we can ask: What should be the penalty for intentional misuse? Say a player just wanted to throw a couple more "funsies" from a top of the world tee during a round and tried to call them provisional throws.

Second, we can ask about a good-faith effort to use provisional throws correctly in a situation where neither of the two reasons to start a set of provisional throws was in effect.

Third, we can ask whether the TD can modify the provisional rule by asking players to throw provisional throws whenever they are unclear about a ruling.

Fourth, we can address what happens when someone (not the TD) with apparent authority gives instructions that seem to go counter to the rule book.

Everyone's thoughts?

 

[Steve West]

It seems to me a provisional would "save time" in this example. The written rule doesn't explicitly state a broken disc, but IMO it reads like it's open ended and related to the status of a disc/lie.

The RC cannot be expected to conceive of and/or list all the ways a disc's status might be in question.
[...]

Saving time is not enough. The disc must be in a status that cannot be readily determined, and for one of the listed reasons.

The written rule says: "because it may be lost, out-of-bounds, or have missed a mandatory;"

That is a complete list. On purpose. If there were other allowable reasons that could cause the status to be unclear, they would be listed. Or the rule would add something like" "or other reasons". Or the rule would have said something like: "for reasons including, but not limited to, ...".

 

[roblee]

Saving time is not enough. The disc must be in a status that cannot be readily determined, and for one of the listed reasons.

The written rule says: "because it may be lost, out-of-bounds, or have missed a mandatory;"

That is a complete list. On purpose. If there were other allowable reasons that could cause the status to be unclear, they would be listed. Or the rule would add something like" "or other reasons". Or the rule would have said something like: "for reasons including, but not limited to, ...".

Could you add: Hazard, Buncr, determining a playing surface?

 

[txmxer]

Saving time is not enough. The disc must be in a status that cannot be readily determined, and for one of the listed reasons.

The written rule says: "because it may be lost, out-of-bounds, or have missed a mandatory;"

That is a complete list. On purpose. If there were other allowable reasons that could cause the status to be unclear, they would be listed. Or the rule would add something like" "or other reasons". Or the rule would have said something like: "for reasons including, but not limited to, ...".

That may be the complete list as written, but it is not a complete list IMO. It is possible that your reply-write addition would be appropriate.

The alternative is to wait for the TD to address the situation, which clearly would take time to do.

I personally believe the rule is clear about how to play the broken disc, but it is fair to say the language of the rules could be seen as in conflict with no specific order of precedence established.

 

[biscoe]

First, we can ask: What should be the penalty for intentional misuse? Say a player just wanted to throw a couple more "funsies" from a top of the world tee during a round and tried to call them provisional throws.

DQ (bolding mine)

Second, we can ask about a good-faith effort to use provisional throws correctly in a situation where neither of the two reasons to start a set of provisional throws was in effect.

Practice throws seem the closest thing in a general sense- probably situational though given what the question at hand actually is.

Third, we can ask whether the TD can modify the provisional rule by asking players to throw provisional throws whenever they are unclear about a ruling.

Likely not without some kind of waiver although it might be a good idea.

Fourth, we can address what happens when someone (not the TD) with apparent authority gives instructions that seem to go counter to the rule book.

By "apparent authority" I assume you mean designated tournament official or marshal- no one else would hold any authority. I would assume provisional coupled with appeal to the TD becomes the next line of defense.

 

[_MTL_]

First, we can ask: What should be the penalty for intentional misuse? Say a player just wanted to throw a couple more "funsies" from a top of the world tee during a round and tried to call them provisional throws.

We had this kinda happen at US Masters. A player was throwing multiple Provisionals and we were alerted about it. Our concern was this example.

We all agreed that each provisional that wasn't used to save time or allowed would simply be a practice throw and or misplay, pending which lie played, etc.

It turns out it wasn't someone just randomly having fun, rather very poor shots where a provisional was being used in the case of a lost of a lost disc. I agree with Biscoe, however, if this continued to happen and or had "oh I was just throwing for fun" vibe to it, DQ should be discussed.

Second, we can ask about a good-faith effort to use provisional throws correctly in a situation where neither of the two reasons to start a set of provisional throws was in effect.

To me it's much easier to identify when a provisional cannot be used. For example, a potential optional re-throw cannot be a provisional. Imagine if I threw a crappy tee shot on an easy hole and said "provisional in case I want to abandon my throw" I would do this EVERY time because I would ace run and lets say I aced, well, thats now a 3 (original tee shot, penalty for abandoned lie and then successful completion of the hole) and likely a 3 is best case from original lie. In the likely outcome that I don't throw it in, I just play original lie without penalty.

Our sport pushes Provisionals left and right, but I feel we need to do a better job explaining when they should not be used. The most common misuse is "we couldn't agree whether he was in or out" which obviously is not a provisional situation (unless you are confused about what the line is - I'm talking about stuff like "it was so close to the water, we weren't sure" stuff).

Third, we can ask whether the TD can modify the provisional rule by asking players to throw provisional throws whenever they are unclear about a ruling.

This is a no without a waiver. TDs can change the rules of the game.

Fourth, we can address what happens when someone (not the TD) with apparent authority gives instructions that seem to go counter to the rule book.

When this occurs, players should do the following:
- Alert the TD of the issue.
- Show evidence in the rules of play why the TD is wrong.
- Follow the instruction of the TD, even if wrong.
- If wrong, player should email [email protected] and they will reach out to the TD to explain in the future the error.

 

[krupicka]

Could you add: Hazard, Buncr, determining a playing surface?

There is no reason to throw a provisional for Hazards as the lie does not change. Provisionals can only be used if the lies are different (809.02.B.2). Buncrs are special areas that require a waiver, thus they don't really exist in the ORDG.

 

[_MTL_]

This is a no without a waiver. TDs can change the rules of the game.

silly typo!!

TD's CANNOT change the rules.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

So what happens in the case of that person that threw the provisionals and their disc was found but was a worse shot like deep in the bush awful and they decided to abandon the throw? Can they use their provisional shot? Or do they need walk back and re tee?

 

[Cgkdisc]

So what happens in the case of that person that threw the provisionals and their disc was found but was a worse shot like deep in the bush awful and they decided to abandon the throw? Can they use their provisional shot? Or do they need walk back and re tee?

When you take a provisional, you are essentially stating that you'll use it if your original throw was lost (or in other penalty location). If original throw is found, then you have to play it or abandon it by going back to re-throw. The provisional can't be used in that case.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

When you take a provisional, you are essentially stating that you'll use it if your original throw was lost (or in other penalty location). If original throw is found, then you have to play it or abandon it by going back to re-throw. The provisional can't be used in that case.

Thanks. I kind of thought so, it would be problematic as stated earlier to allow that kind of thing but it did occur to me it could be useful after being mentioned haha i guess you should abandon it while still at the teepad if you think it's that bad and don't want to walk twice and delay the game.

 

[txmxer]

A provisional throw should be a no-brainer for a no harm no foul situation. That is the basis for this discussion. A disc broke in the basket. A significant portion was in the basket while the largest piece was on the ground.

1) I believe the rules address this—largest piece IS the disc.
2) there is no order of precedence established in the rules.
3) if two people on the card think the disc is in the hole, then the options are, rule for the player (tie goes to runner), provisional, or wait for TD/rules official.

Distinctly a time saving issue.

 

[krupicka]

A provisional throw should be a no-brainer for a no harm no foul situation. That is the basis for this discussion. A disc broke in the basket. A significant portion was in the basket while the largest piece was on the ground.

1) I believe the rules address this—largest piece IS the disc.
2) there is no order of precedence established in the rules.
3) if two people on the card think the disc is in the hole, then the options are, rule for the player (tie goes to runner), provisional, or wait for TD/rules official.

Distinctly a time saving issue.

While using a provisional to get a ruling later from an official does save time, throwing a provisional to get a ruling later is different than throwing a provisional to save time. These are two separate reasons for using a provisional.

 

[DavidSauls]

First, we can ask: What should be the penalty for intentional misuse? Say a player just wanted to throw a couple more "funsies" from a top of the world tee during a round and tried to call them provisional throws.

One limitation is that throwing provisionals to save time requires agreement of the group. So one player can't abuse the rule; he'd need a rogue group to go along with him.

Not to say it couldn't happen -- I once joked with my group, This is a cool hole. Let's agree that we may not find our drives, so we can throw it twice -- but I'd think the chances of it being done, particularly multiple times, would be pretty limited.

 

[txmxer]

While using a provisional to get a ruling later from an official does save time, throwing a provisional to get a ruling later is different than throwing a provisional to save time. These are two separate reasons for using a provisional.

So the broken disc question would comply with B.2.?

 

[krupicka]

So the broken disc question would comply with B.2.?

Yes as there would be two different lies depending on the ruling.

 

[BillFleming]

One thing about playing a provisional....a player CAN'T play a provisional just because they want to do so. They have to announce it to the group and the group can deny the player the provisional if they feel/determine there is no reason to be throwing one.

 

[thecandydan]

One thing about playing a provisional....a player CAN'T play a provisional just because they want to do so. They have to announce it to the group and the group can deny the player the provisional if they feel/determine there is no reason to be throwing one.

I don't read 809.02(B)(2) that way. 809.02(B)(1) requires group agreement. That's the "save time" provision. But 809.02(B)(2) allows a set of provisional throws when "a player in the group" wishes to appeal a group decision to an official. Reads as singular to me.

My main takeaway from this discussion is that the new PDGA LIVE app made a great decision to incorporate the rules as a tab on the app. They are so much easier to look up now.