Stepping on marker or partially off tee pad

[Cgkdisc]

Noticed several foot faults today both stepping on discs left on ground as their marker and less commonly seen was a plant foot partially off the side of the tee pad touching the playing surface during release. In each case, the player slipped enough that it appeared to affect the quality of their shot. Of course, contacting your marker or having your foot partially contacting the surface outside the pad during release won't always be an issue but it's something the player will not be attempting to do.

We have this inconsistency embedded in the rules where the plant foot partially off the tee pad upon release is not a foot fault if tee pad is far enough above the adjoining surface but a foot fault if the pad is level with the adjoining surface. Supporting point behind marker on release can be in contact with playing surface beyond the 20x30cm lie BUT not in contact in front of it and other supporting points can be in contact with the playing surface behind the front of the lie as long as there's at least one supporting point contacting the 20x30cm lie.

Seems like it would be much simpler to explain, make calls and look more legal on camera if the 802.07 Stance rule would be merged with 802.04 for teeing off and become something like:

Releasing a Throw (modified Stance rule)
When disc is released from a tee pad lie, fairway lie or drop zone lie player must:
1. Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,
2. Have no supporting points NOT in contact with the lie, closer to the target than the lie; and,
3. Have all supporting points inbounds.

Inserting "NOT in contact with the lie" allows additional supporting points to be on the playing surface off the lie during release if they are no closer to the target. In addition, it allows supporting points contacting the lie during release to be partially off the lie in any direction including slightly towards the target including contact with the marker.

 

[BillFleming]

I think the issue with the supporting point ahead of the lie (off the tee pad and touching ground, or moving marker), is that it is very hard to catch when it happens. Basically, was the disc released or not? Since you have to have at least one other person spot it and agree with the call, it is difficult to call it out. And then what happens if you and one other call it, but the third player says they didn't see it, or they say the disc was released? The player is going to say they released the disc first and you have 2 vs 2.

I know I have this 'issue'. Many times during my follow through, after the disc has been released, my lead foot pivots and bumps the disc/marker out of position. I've been working on having my foot a bit further back, but still within the lie, so that when the lead foot pivots I don't hit my disc/marker. For me, it's only an issue when I throw backhand.

 

[txmxer]

I saw players bumping markers frequently at the blue ridge. No calls.

 

[Sewer bill]

I have never seen a marker bump called.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I saw players bumping markers frequently at the blue ridge. No calls.

Exactly.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I have never seen a marker bump called.

Exactly. If it's not called, it's de facto legal. Just make it officially legal. No one is intentionally stepping on their marker for an advantage.

 

[Sewer bill]

Exactly. If it's not called, it's de facto legal. Just make it officially legal. No one is intentionally stepping on their marker for an advantage.

I agree.

 

[jupiterboy]

There is a nuance to an unenforced rule.

 

[Innova63]

Exactly.

So you want to change the wording so players will actually call it?

Or so it is less likely to actually occur , thus no need to call it?

 

[Cgkdisc]

So you want to change the wording so players will actually call it?

Or so it is less likely to actually occur , thus no need to call it?

No need to call it. However, the rarer infractions will be easier to call when it's apparent the player took their stance completely in front of the pad, their lie or too far off to either side. The most likely "cheat" or advantage taken under this proposed change is players standing on the front edge of their lie and executing a stand and deliver or step putt just a little closer than currently allowed. But is it an advantage if everyone can do it legally?

 

[DavidSauls]

Exactly. If it's not called, it's de facto legal. Just make it officially legal. No one is intentionally stepping on their marker for an advantage.

The constraint of stance rules isn't just to prevent a player from using an advantageous lie.

The consciousness of the lie, and attempt to comply with the rule, affects the shot as well.

It's a bit easier to pull off a shot if you're casually trying to "about" hit the lie, than if you're concentrating on precisely hitting it.

Of course, lots of rules in lots of sports are called based on judgment and degree, not the exact wording. And part of the marker bumps is the difficulty in determining whether the disc has been released yet. But I'd keep the rule, even if rarely called, because the threat of the call affects the throw.

As for off the side of the tee? Maybe. I've seen people take crazy routes by crossing the tee at an angle, and work hard to get their back foot in the air before release.

 

[txmxer]

DS makes a great point. This rule in particular exists because there has to be A rule. Precision enforcement isn't possible nor practical. You have to draw the line somewhere and typically only egregious violations are called if at all.

The lie itself is an imaginary box. The only explicit boundary is the marker. If the tip of a players tie nudges the edge of the marker, it doesn't offer any meaningful advantage to the player.

In order to modify the rule I think you would have to provide some means to visibly define the lie and make it a positive application—player must be in contact with the visibly defined lie. Imagine the marker being replaced by something durable about the size of a piece of paper and require the player be in contact with that. More or less what a tee box provides only small. It would be a major nuisance without meaningfully altering the skill required to olay the game.

 

[DavidSauls]

Chuck's proposal, if I read it correctly*, is just as precise. It just extends the "other supporting point" leniency on tee and drop zone shots, to match the fairway shot. That is, with one supporting point in contact with the tee, it wouldn't matter if the other point was off the tea, as long as it wasn't in front of the tee.

* - important caveat.

 

[BillFleming]

DS makes a great point. This rule in particular exists because there has to be A rule. Precision enforcement isn't possible nor practical. You have to draw the line somewhere and typically only egregious violations are called if at all.

The lie itself is an imaginary box. The only explicit boundary is the marker. If the tip of a players tie nudges the edge of the marker, it doesn't offer any meaningful advantage to the player.

In order to modify the rule I think you would have to provide some means to visibly define the lie and make it a positive application—player must be in contact with the visibly defined lie. Imagine the marker being replaced by something durable about the size of a piece of paper and require the player be in contact with that. More or less what a tee box provides only small. It would be a major nuisance without meaningfully altering the skill required to olay the game.

Maybe we will soon be required to use a marker disc and all marker discs will have a towel attached that is the exact dimension of the 'lie'. You'll put the marker down and flatten out the towel/lie flat before making your throw. There will be the additional benefit of always having a towel handy.

 

[Countchunkula]

Maybe we will soon be required to use a marker disc and all marker discs will have a towel attached that is the exact dimension of the 'lie'. You'll put the marker down and flatten out the towel/lie flat before making your throw. There will be the additional benefit of always having a towel handy.

I think Douglas Adams would approve.

 

[robdeforge]

The lie itself is an imaginary box. The only explicit boundary is the marker. If the tip of a players tie nudges the edge of the marker, it doesn't offer any meaningful advantage to the player.

completely 100% disagree with you on this.

It offers the advantage of not having to pay attention to their stance/plant foot as much as somebody who makes sure not to have a stance violation when throwing.