Inconsistency between new rule 803.01 B.1.and Q&A?

[peabody]

How many foursomes in a typical pdga tournament? 20-40? Thats 40 different rulling bodies. How many are calling foot faults compared to those who do not? How many are calling 30 second infractions compared to those who do not?
If we are going to let each foursome rule themselves then leave the professional players to their own devices.
Unless special rulings are requested by the group, all rule calls during the round are made by the group and only that group.
Until we get as big as PGA with rules officials on every hole then being selective in our rule officiating should be discouraged.

 

[ToddL]

Until we get as big as PGA with rules officials on every hole then being selective in our rule officiating should be discouraged.

Even in the PGA Tour, there are only a handful of rules officials on the course, and they typically do not weigh in on anything unless requested by the players.

 

[dmoore1998]

Even in the PGA Tour, there are only a handful of rules officials on the course, and they typically do not weigh in on anything unless requested by the players.

Yes, but the PGA doesn't really ask players to run around calling violations on one another. It's more self-reporting, which likely doesn't work well on things like foot faults (I think most people who fault while straddling probably aren't meaning to do so, and those who do it on run-ups probably don't see it because they're throwing). They also don't have the shot clock.

It's a lot easier to know if you accidentally tapped a golf ball while addressing it than it is to know if your shoe crossed your lie by 1/4 inch on your full run-up.

Seems like PGA officials get called in more for course-specific things, like relief.

 

[krupicka]

The PGA seems to have a better culture of players calling their own faults. We have plenty of public cases where some players know they are not following the rules and would rather not. If players are willing to call their own and not be touchy when they do get called, then it's really no issue for their card mates to make the calls.

 

[ToddL]

Yes, but the PGA doesn't really ask players to run around calling violations on one another. It's more self-reporting, which likely doesn't work well on things like foot faults (I think most people who fault while straddling probably aren't meaning to do so, and those who do it on run-ups probably don't see it because they're throwing). They also don't have the shot clock.

It's a lot easier to know if you accidentally tapped a golf ball while addressing it than it is to know if your shoe crossed your lie by 1/4 inch on your full run-up.

Seems like PGA officials get called in more for course-specific things, like relief.

Agreed, in general. It is indeed really hard to tell if you committed a stance violation - you need the other players on your card to watch. But also, it's nice that most penalties are not violations (stance, courtesy, time, etc). Most violations are determinations (OB, hazard, etc), and our players are typically very honorable and ethical on those calls.

 

[robdeforge]

https://twitter.com/prez017/status/1514530925845094400

from Andrew Presnell:

"A hot disc golf topic the past week or 2 has been the rule change of no longer being able to clear debris from a player's run-up. At the Champions Cup player meeting, @PDGA addressed this issue and said, If there's a safety concern just throw a stand-still. Seriously?"

I wonder why it took multiple events for the pros to start discussing this

 

[Steve West]

https://twitter.com/prez017/status/1514530925845094400

from Andrew Presnell:

"A hot disc golf topic the past week or 2 has been the rule change of no longer being able to clear debris from a player's run-up. At the Champions Cup player meeting, @PDGA addressed this issue and said, If there's a safety concern just throw a stand-still. Seriously?"

I wonder why it took multiple events for the pros to start discussing this

No pine cones until this event.

 

[txmxer]

Did catch Ricky confirming with his card about clearing debris on one of his upshot's.

 

[Rastnav]

OK, unless I'm missing something, this seems to be a fairly poorly executed rule change.

As worded, If I'm walking to my lie, which is currently 10 feet away, and I trip over a dead branch, moving it, I've committed a violation. If I'm practicing my run-up and stumble on a small rock, moving it, I've committed a violation.

Then you have the more pressing issue where you are punishing shots that are in the dead middle of the fairway simply because there is a fallen branch or stick that impedes the run-up. These aren't in any way designed obstacles. You've basically recreated the issue the PGA had with bunker violations. The one they recently eliminated because it didn't make sense.

I don't even understand what issue this was designed to address.

 

[robdeforge]

OK, unless I'm missing something, this seems to be a fairly poorly executed rule change.

As worded, If I'm walking to my lie, which is currently 10 feet away, and I trip over a dead branch, moving it, I've committed a violation. If I'm practicing my run-up and stumble on a small rock, moving it, I've committed a violation.

"A player may restore course equipment to its proper working order, including the removal of obstacles."

I think I agree with your reading, but also can't you just move it back to where it was and call it a day?

I don't even understand what issue this was designed to address.

My guess is that it was trying to address the fact that "run-up" was not defined in the previous rule, but I am not sure about that

 

[Rastnav]

"A player may restore course equipment to its proper working order, including the removal of obstacles."

I think I agree with your reading, but also can't you just move it back to where it was and call it a day?

Can you imagine having to re-place every pine cone and branch you moved while trying to get to your lie in the right side rough you kicked into when you early released? How could you even legally play a lie in the bushes that you can't get to easily?

In round 3 of the Masters Cup, Mason Ford encountered this issue, and it seemed that after he played his shot, he reached and grabbed whatever it was and tossed it off the fairway into the rough. Based on how it reads now, that would also be a violation. It basically turns every pine cone, dead branch or fallen leaf into course equipment unless it's currently within a body length of your disc.

Although, TBF, the old rule also has the same effect as soon as you throw your upshot past the pin.

That's why I'm saying, whatever the intent was, it doesn't seem to be well executed. The language creates more ambiguities/interpretations than the old rule.

Oh, and the old rule doesn't say anything about run-up AFAIK.

 

[biscoe]

No pine cones until this event.

Was there a particular pine cone incident?

 

[peabody]

You know how in PGA tournaments when a ball is hit way off the fairway the spectators hurry up and get behind the lie for good viewing of the shot?
Let's say a crowd is standing off to the side and a disc lands in front of them. Are we saying the player can only ask the group to move back just one body length and not clear them out for a run-up?

 

[robdeforge]

Can you imagine having to re-place every pine cone and branch you moved while trying to get to your lie in the right side rough you kicked into when you early released? How could you even legally play a lie in the bushes that you can't get to easily?

In round 3 of the Masters Cup, Mason Ford encountered this issue, and it seemed that after he played his shot, he reached and grabbed whatever it was and tossed it off the fairway into the rough. Based on how it reads now, that would also be a violation. It basically turns every pine cone, dead branch or fallen leaf into course equipment unless it's currently within a body length of your disc.

Although, TBF, the old rule also has the same effect as soon as you throw your upshot past the pin.

That's why I'm saying, whatever the intent was, it doesn't seem to be well executed. The language creates more ambiguities/interpretations than the old rule.

Thankfully I feel like they could add some simple language to address what you're talking about, but I do see exactly what you're saying and agree that moving objects while on the way to your lie or during a practice run-up would be considered violations

Oh, and the old rule doesn't say anything about run-up AFAIK.

True sorry, it was the old QA answer but not the old rule itself

The old QA-OBS-3: My disc came to rest under a long fallen tree branch. The branch is clearly detached from the tree, and extends from behind my disc to in front of it. Can I move the branch?
Yes. If part of the branch is in your stance or run-up behind your marker, you're allowed to move it, even if another part is between your lie and the hole.

 

[Rastnav]

Thankfully I feel like they could add some simple language to address what you're talking about, but I do see exactly what you're saying and agree that moving objects while on the way to your lie or during a practice run-up would be considered violations



True sorry, it was the old QA answer but not the old rule itself

The old QA-OBS-3: My disc came to rest under a long fallen tree branch. The branch is clearly detached from the tree, and extends from behind my disc to in front of it. Can I move the branch?
Yes. If part of the branch is in your stance or run-up behind your marker, you're allowed to move it, even if another part is between your lie and the hole.

That Q&A is interesting, because the "if it is in your stance or run-up" feels like it is almost ancillary. The question that is being answered is "can I move a single piece of debris that is both behind my lie and extends past it?" The short answer there is "yes", because nowhere in the rules do they define what a "run-up" is, so I could "run-up" by walking 50 feet to my disc.

But, the spirit of the rule is that you shouldn't move something like that if the goal is to remove something blocking the flight of the disc. You should only move it if it's interfering with your ability to throw the disc (We could then wonder about interference with follow through, but it seems to me that the rules don't consider follow through to be something you are entitled to).

 

[robdeforge]

That Q&A is interesting, because the "if it is in your stance or run-up" feels like it is almost ancillary. The question that is being answered is "can I move a single piece of debris that is both behind my lie and extends past it?" The short answer there is "yes", because nowhere in the rules do they define what a "run-up" is, so I could "run-up" by walking 50 feet to my disc.

I think this is why the rule was changed - now you don't have to define what a run-up is

 

[Rastnav]

I think this is why the rule was changed - now you don't have to define what a run-up is

Sure, but it also dramatically changes the overall spirit of the game, in that the rules allow for a run up, and generally contemplate that one should have the opportunity to throw to a place that allows for a run-up when on a hole that is designed with the idea that it is more than a "par 3".

Far more importantly, it completely changes the letter and spirit of the rules in defining casual obstacles. Remember, dead leaves are specifically called out as casual obstacles. The rule as it reads now, means that you can't even disturb the leaf litter when you walk, let alone pine cones, gumballs, twigs, etc. This is patently ridiculous.

Basically, in order to address this one issue, that a run-up is hard to define (assuming that is why the rule was changed), they've completely foo-barred the meaning of casual obstacles.

 

[BillFleming]

Sure, but it also dramatically changes the overall spirit of the game, in that the rules allow for a run up, and generally contemplate that one should have the opportunity to throw to a place that allows for a run-up when on a hole that is designed with the idea that it is more than a "par 3".

Far more importantly, it completely changes the letter and spirit of the rules in defining casual obstacles. Remember, dead leaves are specifically called out as casual obstacles. The rule as it reads now, means that you can't even disturb the leaf litter when you walk, let alone pine cones, gumballs, twigs, etc. This is patently ridiculous.

Basically, in order to address this one issue, that a run-up is hard to define (assuming that is why the rule was changed), they've completely foo-barred the meaning of casual obstacles.

The rules allow a run/walk up but don't require it to be 'available'. Otherwise, you would be able to move your lie from near a tree. Disc lands near a tree, run up would cause you to hit the tree....but you can't move your lie. Or the disc is in front of the tree and you would need to move the tree to do a run up. The only thing the rules really allows is that you can take a stance - and the rules allow you to clear certain obstacles from your stance.

 

[Rastnav]

The rules allow a run/walk up but don't require it to be 'available'. Otherwise, you would be able to move your lie from near a tree. Disc lands near a tree, run up would cause you to hit the tree....but you can't move your lie. Or the disc is in front of the tree and you would need to move the tree to do a run up. The only thing the rules really allows is that you can take a stance - and the rules allow you to clear certain obstacles from your stance.

As a I said, this isn't the biggest issue with the rule. However,

The rules specifically allow you to follow through with your supporting points after a throw, specifically preventing it only inside the circle.

Let's look at PDGA guidelines for course design. For tee pads they specify:

Typical size for pads at the longer tee positions is 6 ft (2m) wide by 13 ft (4m) long. The back end might flare out to 10 feet (3m) wide. Minimum rectangular size is 4 feet (1.2m) wide by 10 feet (3m) long.
…
Each tee area should have at least a two-foot apron around all sides to provide adequate room for follow-thru, so a player doesn't risk twisting an ankle or falling off a ledge. Also, it is best to provide adequate level ground for a run-up behind each tee pad, especially on longer holes.

The PDGA absolutely considers that longer shots, from the designed playing area, should adequately consider run up, at least on the tee. They consider run-up so essential that they want the short tees to have the best tee pads:

On courses with alternate tees, the tee surfaces in the shorter positions should always be better or at least equal in quality to those in longer positions.

 

[Nale72]

Even in the PGA Tour, there are only a handful of rules officials on the course, and they typically do not weigh in on anything unless requested by the players.

Correct, beside pace of play. Nowadays when we are rules officials in golf (I'm a national referee in Sweden) our main focus, besides answering specific questions from players waving us to them or calling in for a ruling, is to make sure pace of play is followed.

And on a national tour event we are often 2-3 rules officials, covering all 18 holes over the whole day, over an area that is normally way larger than a disc golf course. Together we try to spot gaps between groups and make sure they are made up. So you don't need a rules official in every single group to maintain a tournaments pace of play.