Q about “arrive at and determine the lie”

[Rastnav]

The Q and A clarifications don't seem to provide a more detailed explanation of what is meant by this phrase, which is used in 802.03.A.2

I assume that "determine" only comes into play if there is some circumstance that would require marking the lie, ex: OB, casual relief, etc. People frequently assert that figuring out how the wind is blowing, where the gaps are, etc. is part of determining the lie, but I don't believe that to be the case.

But "arrive at" used in conjunction with this is a little odd.

Example, the other day I was playing a casual round and ended up with my disc landing on a very steep road embankment that had vines, thorns, shrubs and other weedy plants growing to a height of about 4 feet. Finding my disc was a challenge, but once I saw it, the disc was behind me and above me, maybe 5 feet away. At some point later I wondered what the implications would have been in tournament play. (Yes, I'm talking about how much time I would have to throw, in as obscure a manner as I can).

Q1: At what point have I arrived at my disc?

This seems sort of pedantic, but it probably took me 20 to 30 seconds to actual get to a location where I was within range to put a foot on the lie, and another maybe 15 seconds to figure out how I could actually get solid enough footing to throw. I hadn't even begun to figure out anything like what disc/shot/etc. I might play. I didn't even have my bag with me.

Q2: What is the implication for 802.03.A.2 if I had decided to take optional, penalized relief back along the line of play under 803.02.D?

It would seem to me in a situation where one might reasonably be considering optional relief, it's at least arguable that the lie has not been determined until you either take the relief and get the card to OK the placement of your marker, or choose not to take the relief.

It further seems to me that the very first rule in the book, 801.01.A, is perhaps intended to cover ambiguities like this. " If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness."

Given the amount of effort it took me just to get to the disc, without my bag, I'm not sure it's fair to start the clock when I haven't even figured out how to get my foot on the lie in a legal upright position, and, especially, if I might legitimately think optional relief is my best course of action.

 

[Jimb]

Wrong thread. Oops!

 

[txmxer]

Good questions, but the last part about "legal upright position " is not part of the rule.

 

[Rastnav]

Good questions, but the last part about "legal upright position " is not part of the rule.

I understand it's not clearly stated as part of the rule. But it is also ambiguous what it means to "arrive at and determine the lie".

To the extent that I am trying to determine how I can legally take a stance effects whether I might take optional relief, my lie may not actually be determined until I figure how I can take a stance that is in contact with my lie.

As another example, Joel Freeman was on post production coverage and ended up with a lie deep in a bush. At some point he called his card over and was making the argument that his disc was unreachable. Nathan Queen said he thought he could reach the disc and objected to casual relief.

At what point does that become a time violation?

 

[txmxer]

I understand it's not clearly stated as part of the rule. But it is also ambiguous what it means to "arrive at and determine the lie".

To the extent that I am trying to determine how I can legally take a stance effects whether I might take optional relief, my lie may not actually be determined until I figure how I can take a stance that is in contact with my lie.

As another example, Joel Freeman was on post production coverage and ended up with a lie deep in a bush. At some point he called his card over and was making the argument that his disc was unreachable. Nathan Queen said he thought he could reach the disc and objected to casual relief.

At what point does that become a time violation?

Which is the part I agree with--in general it's good question. Just saying that a legal upright position isn't part of it.

 

[sisyphus]

I'm one to strongly encourage keeping up the pace of play as best you can (and don't recall ever having my cardmates show concern with me taking 30 seconds to throw - on the contrary, I've had folks comment on my quick play hundreds of times), but i do believe that a difficult lie generally gets a little more compassion and time.

That being said, once you spotted your disc, you pretty quickly determined your lie. My advice at that point would be to take your bag, or likely discs, or your mini with you to get TO the disc. Think through your options while you claw your way to the point where you 'arrive at' your disc. Consider yourself 'on the clock' at that point.

Again, we generally use a 'Golden Rule' attitude toward the challenges of the lie you describe, but I've had folks (who TD A-Tier events) take three minutes or more after spotting their disc, and that's just wrong.

 

[roblee]

As sisyphus intimated, it's not black or white; it's golden.

 

[Rastnav]

I'm one to strongly encourage keeping up the pace of play as best you can (and don't recall ever having my cardmates show concern with me taking 30 seconds to throw - on the contrary, I've had folks comment on my quick play hundreds of times), but i do believe that a difficult lie generally gets a little more compassion and time.

That being said, once you spotted your disc, you pretty quickly determined your lie. My advice at that point would be to take your bag, or likely discs, or your mini with you to get TO the disc. Think through your options while you claw your way to the point where you 'arrive at' your disc. Consider yourself 'on the clock' at that point.

Again, we generally use a 'Golden Rule' attitude toward the challenges of the lie you describe, but I've had folks (who TD A-Tier events) take three minutes or more after spotting their disc, and that's just wrong.

Again, my disc was somewhere unknown on a very steep embankment that was wrapped up 4 feet high in vines that I was both having to untangle from my feet while simultaneously hold on to keep from falling backwards or slipping down the hill. That was all while looking for the disc. Having a bag on my back wasn't really an option. Nor would I really have had a place to set it down.

The concept of the golden rule seems captured by fairness rule, 801.01.A, and that makes sense to me.

But it still doesn't quite answer the question of what it means to arrive at and determine the lie. In a situation where the disc is out in the open, the rule is fairly cut and dry, but it seems to stop being clear once you get into lies where it is difficult to get a supporting point on the lie.

I likely could have put a hand on the lie from below and attempted to throw with a hand on the lie, and that would have resulted in a quicker time to throw. It also would have meant more time spent overall on the hill, as the disc wouldn't have gone far.

Although the rules don't actually specify any right to stand while throwing, I think everyone expects that they will be able at least *try* to get to a position where they could do so.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that time to throw is not actually a hard and fast, bright line rule. Anyone saying that it is a hard limit that one should expect might be called any time one exceeds the limit isn't really contemplating the full range of situations.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Good question, I play "jungle golf" as well, I have also been commented on for the speed of my play... heck I play bag on 5 disc when it's wet... but I'm with you on extenuating circumstances and deep bush.

Round these parts we look for a disc for awhile and make the person throw it, optional relief is a cowards way out. We also provide reasonable footing in the face of danger.

That is a fun anecdote but not PDGA rules, I agree with your subtle point that it should be a rule up-holded by the group, stuff happens. 30 seconds isn't long enough on a crap lie with multiple footing or "relief" options.

Your lawyrin' pants look good on you...

When is the lie "determined" ?

 

[Rastnav]

I agree with your subtle point that it should be a rule up-holded by the group, stuff happens. 30 seconds isn't long enough on a crap lie with multiple footing or "relief" options.

Yes, good point and this is part of what I'm asking people to think about. I'd restate it slightly to say that the rule doesn't really work as written outside the concept of card enforcement. The card enforcement mechanism is what allows the rule to be concisely worded (which also comes with its own problems).

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

802.03 Excessive Time
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 15:50

A player has taken excessive time if they are present and have not thrown within 30 seconds:
After the previous player has thrown; and,
After they have had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at and determine the lie; and,
After they are next in the throwing order; and,
During which the playing area is clear.
A player who takes excessive time receives a warning for the first violation. A player who takes excessive time after having been warned for it during the round receives one penalty throw. See 811.F.5 for a player who is absent when it is their turn to throw.
A player may request extra time from the group to take a bathroom break. If the player does not return in a reasonable time, the player is considered missing for the hole and receives a score of par plus 4 for the hole.



There is a lot of vagueness here.. Can you walk up to your throw and request a bathroom break?

What is a reasonable amount of time to determine the lie? I don't suppose proper footing is part of determining your lie... right foot/left foot forward? What about the time when you look at it and decide a backhand is the wrong route and you switch to a FH? (with your bag at your feet)

I get it, I've played with slower than molasses people that do it on purpose, you need some written recourse to try and stifle that. You shouldn't finish a round a half hour later than another group just because you are playing with __________.

I've timed myself, after dropping a marker I'm about 20 seconds to get set on an easy one. Feet, shuffle, practice swing, cock and go... I'm not out to rush but some people are glacial.

Personally I feel like 45 seconds is better.

Especially when you are last to find your disc and you are scrambling a hill etc to get to it, is 30 seconds long enough to catch your breath? Should you walk to your disc slower? Take your sweet time to mark it? What kind of counter tactics should be available? Haha

 

[jenb]

In law, when we have a statute or offense that can be interpreted many ways, we know it depends on the judge and/or jury's determination of how to apply it in that situation. Judges are supposed to interpret the law and provide instructions to the jury, who are supposed to be finders of fact but can ignore the jury instructions in practice. The results can be appealed to a higher court.

In disc golf, your card mates are your judge and jury. Yes, the ones competing against you, who have a motive to find against you. You can appeal to the TD.

 

[BillFleming]

I understand it's not clearly stated as part of the rule. But it is also ambiguous what it means to "arrive at and determine the lie".

To the extent that I am trying to determine how I can legally take a stance effects whether I might take optional relief, my lie may not actually be determined until I figure how I can take a stance that is in contact with my lie.

As another example, Joel Freeman was on post production coverage and ended up with a lie deep in a bush. At some point he called his card over and was making the argument that his disc was unreachable. Nathan Queen said he thought he could reach the disc and objected to casual relief.

At what point does that become a time violation?

In my opinion/understanding of the rules, per the bolded part Joel's lie was not yet determined. They were trying to determine if the lie was where the disc currently was or if the lie was another spot (due to current lie being unplayable). Once the card decided it was playable as is, the lie was determined to be in the bush and the clock starts.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

In my opinion/understanding of the rules, per the bolded part Joel's lie was not yet determined. They were trying to determine if the lie was where the disc currently was or if the lie was another spot (due to current lie being unplayable). Once the card decided it was playable as is, the lie was determined to be in the bush and the clock starts.

The lie was determined, but he had not reached the lie. Reaching the lie is done by dropping a marker or choosing your footing behind the disc.

 

[Rastnav]

The lie was determined, but he had not reached the lie. Reaching the lie is done by dropping a marker or choosing your footing behind the disc.

I think I understand what you are saying. However, let's take the simple example of a disc in the middle of a wide open grassy fairway on a dry day. I'd argue that you've "reached your lie" as soon as you get close enough to it that you could put a body part on it. You've determined your lie well before you reached it, as you are clearly not out of bounds, in casual water, threatened by stinging insects, etc.

Choosing which supporting point you will use (forehand/backhand/handstand/whatever) isn't part of reaching your lie. The fact that you can clearly put any chosen supporting point on the lie at any point is the same as having reached your lie. Similarly, choosing whether to mark the front of the disc in its current position is not part of reaching or determining the lie.

Conversely, merely being within a few feet of your disc is not the same as reaching your lie if you are not yet able to take a legal stance on the lie. Even though the rules don't specifically say anything about feet, I think the spirit of the game suggests that you should be able to take time to learn if a balanced, legal stance with a foot on the lie is possible. The fact that I could have put a hand on the lie and thrown some wild shot from a weird position shouldn't preclude me from taking the time to clamber up the slope the additional 5 or 6 feet.

And if I determined that I wanted to take additional relief at the top of the embankment on the flat area, I wouldn't have determined my lie until I then marked my spot and cleared it with the card.

I doubt anyone on a card would begrudge me this. But it certainly isn't contained within the rule itself.

 

[BillFleming]

The lie was determined, but he had not reached the lie. Reaching the lie is done by dropping a marker or choosing your footing behind the disc.

So, I can see my disc (lie) and chat with my card mates, go through my discs, throw dirt/leaves/grass up in the air, drink some water, eat an energy bar, stretch, and not get called/penalized for it since I haven't placed a marker or chosen my footing behind the disc?

There is nothing in rule 802.03 Excessive Time where it says where it says anything about time starting when you mark your lie and/or chose your footing. A.2. says:

After they have had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at and determine the lie;

So, you are allowed to arrive where your disc is and determine where the lie is. I believe the reason for saying 'determine the lie' is because the lie might be changed based on circumstances/rules. For example, an OB disc. There might have to be discussion to determine where the lie actually is.

 

[Rastnav]

So, I can see my disc (lie) and chat with my card mates, go through my discs, throw dirt/leaves/grass up in the air, drink some water, eat an energy bar, stretch, and not get called/penalized for it since I haven't placed a marker or chosen my footing behind the disc?

That would all get excluded based on the "reasonable amount of time" standard.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

So, I can see my disc (lie) and chat with my card mates, go through my discs, throw dirt/leaves/grass up in the air, drink some water, eat an energy bar, stretch, and not get called/penalized for it since I haven't placed a marker or chosen my footing behind the disc?

There is nothing in rule 802.03 Excessive Time where it says where it says anything about time starting when you mark your lie and/or chose your footing. A.2. says:



So, you are allowed to arrive where your disc is and determine where the lie is. I believe the reason for saying 'determine the lie' is because the lie might be changed based on circumstances/rules. For example, an OB disc. There might have to be discussion to determine where the lie actually is.

Haha I enjoy debating for no better reason than the sport of it... so.

The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw.


802.06 Marking the Lie
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 17:45

The position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie.
Alternatively, the player may mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play. A mini marker disc is a small disc, not used in play, that complies with PDGA Technical Standards for mini marker discs.
When the thrown disc is not on the in-bounds playing surface, or when the lie is to be moved by rule, the player marks the lie by placing a mini marker disc in accordance with the applicable rule.



802.05 Lie
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 17:45

The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw. The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken. A playing surface may exist above or below another playing surface. If it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision is made by the Director or by an Official.
The lie for the first throw on a hole is the teeing area.
A drop zone is a lie. A drop zone is an area on the course, as designated by the Director, from which a throw is made under certain conditions. A drop zone may either be marked and played in the same manner as a teeing area, or in the same manner as a marked lie. A teeing area may be used as a drop zone.


I posted those out of order but my questions are:

If you go to your "presumed" lie and start looking at it from your thrown disc then decide to mark it instead for better footing etc, has the lie been redetermined?

If you choose optional relief or to abandon a disc (say on a cliff side, you can see it but can't play it) then would you have time to walk back and throw? Should you have thrown a provisional? Should you be penalized for excessive time for not throwing a provisional?

 

[BillFleming]

Haha I enjoy debating for no better reason than the sport of it... so.

The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw.


802.06 Marking the Lie
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 17:45

The position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie.
Alternatively, the player may mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play. A mini marker disc is a small disc, not used in play, that complies with PDGA Technical Standards for mini marker discs.
When the thrown disc is not on the in-bounds playing surface, or when the lie is to be moved by rule, the player marks the lie by placing a mini marker disc in accordance with the applicable rule.



802.05 Lie
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 17:45

The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw. The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken. A playing surface may exist above or below another playing surface. If it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision is made by the Director or by an Official.
The lie for the first throw on a hole is the teeing area.
A drop zone is a lie. A drop zone is an area on the course, as designated by the Director, from which a throw is made under certain conditions. A drop zone may either be marked and played in the same manner as a teeing area, or in the same manner as a marked lie. A teeing area may be used as a drop zone.


I posted those out of order but my questions are:

If you go to your "presumed" lie and start looking at it from your thrown disc then decide to mark it instead for better footing etc, has the lie been redetermined?

I would say no in this case. It's still the same lie, you are just marking it differently.

If you choose optional relief or to abandon a disc (say on a cliff side, you can see it but can't play it) then would you have time to walk back and throw? Should you have thrown a provisional? Should you be penalized for excessive time for not throwing a provisional?

In this case, you would have time to go back and rethrow. You decided that you wanted to replay from the previous lie, so you have time to arrive at it.

(I like debates also...especially about rules. It helps me understand them better. I state what I understand, others state why they disagree/agree with it, and we continue until we agree or finally agree to disagree and wait for a rule committee person to chime it.)

Provisionals are a tricky subject. Do you throw a provisional on almost every shot just in case? You might get to where your disc should be and not find it...so a provisional would have saved time. The rules allow you to abandon a throw...so you get to your lie and see it is one you'd rather abandon...again, a provisional would have saved time. You get to the lie and it is unplayable...again, a provisional would have saved time. But there's no rule that you MUST take a provisional. But that's all a different topic.

 

[Rastnav]

:

If you go to your "presumed" lie and start looking at it from your thrown disc then decide to mark it instead for better footing etc, has the lie been redetermined?

If you choose optional relief or to abandon a disc (say on a cliff side, you can see it but can't play it) then would you have time to walk back and throw? Should you have thrown a provisional? Should you be penalized for excessive time for not throwing a provisional?

Marking in front of your disc doesn't seem to require confirmation from the card (although, I guess, technically every action is subject to the determination of the card.) I wouldn't think it would count as part of determining your lie. Once you see the position of the disc, the potential placement of the marker, and therefore the lie, is already determined.

Regardless, the "reasonable time" standard would seem to suggest that you don't get more than a second or two of extra time to arrive at and determine your lie if you are just marking the front of your disc and it has no effect on your ability to actually take a legal stance.

For a throw that is subsequently abandoned, perhaps the point is moot. You are only going to receive one penalty, and you'll receive the greater one. Although, I guess it's not actually clear to me when each penalty is technically applied. I guess they might not actually apply to the same throw?

However, (I'm repeating myself here) the fact that you are considering, in good faith, whether you want to apply the optional relief or abandoned throw rules does seem to me to affect whether the lie has been determined.