Q about “arrive at and determine the lie”

[ThrowaEnvy]

Regardless, the "reasonable time" standard would seem to suggest that you don't get more than a second or two of extra time to arrive at and determine your lie if you are just marking the front of your disc and it has no effect on your ability to actually take a legal stance.

d.

How long should it take to get a reasonable legal stance? Because we all want to be legal...

The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw.

I feel like this leaves room for you to change your mark and change your stance which changes your lie and should reset the shot clock

 

[araytx]

Many here are confounding "the lie" and "the disc". There are rare places wherein I can find my disc or see my disc, but not yet able to arrive at the lie until a few seconds or more thereafter..

I understand it's not clearly stated as part of the rule. But it is also ambiguous what it means to "arrive at and determine the lie".

To the extent that I am trying to determine how I can legally take a stance effects whether I might take optional relief, my lie may not actually be determined until I figure how I can take a stance that is in contact with my lie.

As another example, Joel Freeman was on post production coverage and ended up with a lie deep in a bush. At some point he called his card over and was making the argument that his disc was unreachable. Nathan Queen said he thought he could reach the disc and objected to casual relief.

At what point does that become a time violation?

It is reasonable (in most cases) to call the group over to make a determination. And if the group can't do so quickly, then you KNOW it was reasonable. Therefore that standard was met imho

 

[BillFleming]

The way I see it from this thread, is that it "boils down" to this...

You might be able to see where your lie appears to be, but that might not be the official lie as circumstances can change the lie. When the lie might be subject to change, the "clock" hasn't started. Once the final decision is made as to where the lie does exist AND the player is able to get to the lie; the clock starts. In rare cases, such as playing from a previous lie, the clock doesn't start until the player arrives at their lie (in a reasonable amount of time).

Acceptance of the lie starts the clock, but that doesn't mean you get extra time to try different stances. Part of determining the lie is whether you can take a stance...if you can't take a stance, it isn't a lie.

Going back to the original (I think it started this) situation. The disc was in a bush, the player felt they couldn't take a stance so in their opinion it wasn't a valid lie. The clock hasn't started. The group discussed it and the card decided the player could take a stance, so the lie became a legal lie and the clock started. The player now had 30 seconds to take their stance and throw. Their stance may not have been what they wanted or even a great stance....but nothing in the rules requires a player to have the stance they want....it just requires that they can take A stance.

 

[jenb]

In the pdga rules faq, iirc, you can clearly see your disc OB 20 feet ahead of another player's lie but you haven't reached it yet. If a random passerby sees it, picks it up, and throws it in bounds, then the lie is determined to be in bounds when you reach it. Reaching the lie and determining the lie occur simultaneously.

 

[jenb]

Duplicate post

 

[jenb]

You can see your disc floating in the pond. A stiff breeze slowly pushes it towards you, but it won't wash ashore for a couple of minutes. Fortune shines. Nikko's out.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

If your disc is floating and it's your turn to throw it's OB.. Or casual relief. Unless you declare a bathroom break haha, and wait it out hoping it lands on shore.

Haha maybe there should be 30 seconds for an open field "lie" , 45 for brambles or bad footing or 60 seconds for struggling on the side of a cliff... extenuating circumstances.

I think the point is 30 seconds on an easy open shot is mostly adequate for most players.. Personally I don't like the shot clock, or basketball for that matter. Even if Canadians invented it... I think a reasonable amount of time as provided by card mates is fair.

I hate the idea of someone giving me only 30 seconds by rule of LAW! I also hate people that stop their throw on the teepad to grab another disc, tell another story, warm up again etc... it's discks like that that make us have rules like this.

It's undue pressure on what should be a "less pressure" sport. Fwiw I am a fast thrower but sometimes I want to plan my throw without your Machiavellian stopwatch.

I don't want to play with someone with a stopwatch, or a cell phone for that matter, or someone that is constantly calling foot faults.. Is this the new thing to get in your head.. "Hey I'm timing you, better keep it under 30 seconds.. You were 35 seconds last time, first warning."

 

[rhatton1]

In the pdga rules faq, iirc, you can clearly see your disc OB 20 feet ahead of another player's lie but you haven't reached it yet. If a random passerby sees it, picks it up, and throws it in bounds, then the lie is determined to be in bounds when you reach it. Reaching the lie and determining the lie occur simultaneously.

For clarity -

810.A - If a thrown disc has moved after having come to rest on the in-bounds playing surface, it is replaced to where it first came to rest, as agreed on by the group. A thrown disc that has come to rest elsewhere does not need to be replaced, and its position is based on where it first came to rest, as agreed on by the group.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying 810.A stops that. Your disc would be replaced (actually called OB and the lie would be changed to it's last inbounds point - before the passer by got involved)

A disc floating to the edge of the pond would not suddenly become in bounds, once it hits the water and has stopped moving from it's own volition that position is the important one. Any drift afterwards is incidental.

 

[Rastnav]

I feel like this leaves room for you to change your mark and change your stance which changes your lie and should reset the shot clock

If I hate the idea of someone giving me only 30 seconds by rule of LAW! I also hate people that stop their throw on the teepad to grab another disc, tell another story, warm up again etc... it's discks like that that make us have rules like this.

So, to me, this first point, about getting to "reset your shot clock" is wrong and it's wrong because the second point is right.

Once we have to engage in timing our competitors throws, we've subtly changed to sport we are becoming something else. Conversely, once you start doing things like marking your lie to "get another 30 seconds", you are being that "disck".

Be mindful of the flow of the game. Don't freeze your card mates by taking inordinate time. Let other people play their game so long as they aren't abusing the card, and following cards, via their slow play. Be a rules lawyer when people are trying to gain advantage via creative rule interpretation, but otherwise let everyone play the game in good faith.

There are really weird situations that happen that need extended consideration by the rules committee to consider the proper interpretation. I don't think the 30 second rule is one of them. If it becomes that kind of rule, I don't think it will be for the better.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

So, to me, this first point, about getting to "reset your shot clock" is wrong and it's wrong because the second point is right.

Once we have to engage in timing our competitors throws, we've subtly changed to sport we are becoming something else. Conversely, once you start doing things like marking your lie to "get another 30 seconds", you are being that "disck".
..........

There are really weird situations that happen that need extended consideration by the rules committee to consider the proper interpretation. I don't think the 30 second rule is one of them. If it becomes that kind of rule, I don't think it will be for the better.

Ok so I'm not saying you are wrong haha but one more time:

"The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw."

When is the lie determined? If it is the place where you take your stance then it is the 30cm box in which you place your foot. Say you are bunched up on a tree/root/rock etc... you walk up to your disc to check your stance, maybe a quick practice swing from behind the thrown disc... you have now placed your foot on a possible lie. You decide it would work better if you mini mark it, you are now placing your foot on a different part of the ground.

Your foot no longer contacts the real estate from the previous lie which you also can't go back to at this point either. This is your determined lie.


Fwiw, again I'm a considered a fast player.. In most groups when we have tough footing people will say "take your time" . The group will determine if you have been doing this all day or if this is extenuating circumstances. If... IF there was a cumulative shot clock and a tough spot on the 9th hole conceivably in an average round I would probably have 2 min left for that shot.

By including the group in said debate over footing.. "Can I do this?" "Is this legal and alright?" That also seems like the point after which the "lie is determined" and the clock starts.

I'm not saying the rule should be flexed or we should all find loopholes... but if the false foot fault calling douches get onto this with a stopwatch it could drastically change the vibe of the sport. Or an official wanders up to enforce the letter of the law I might be irritable. I just want to be properly prepared for what I feel is a fair amount of time.

 

[Steve West]

I'm actually impressed that those six words conveyed so much meaning and it came through as well as it did. But, the rest of the words in the rule also matter.


Never forget the "After they have had a reasonable amount of time" part. Were they doing something other than trying to arrive at and determine the lie? The clock started when they should have been able to get there.

It is reasonable for someone to walk rather than run, go out of their way to cross at the bridge, take the least-thorny path through the woods, etc.


Note that the four points begin with After, After, After, and During. "After" means that once the clock starts, it does not reset. (Except if you are no longer Next, like if the previous thrower decides to re-throw.)

Nothing you can do as the next player gets you a new 30 seconds.

However, if you are in a situation where you may need to decide whether to go to a drop zone, or whether to abandon the throw, the 30 seconds does not start until you've had enough time to figure that out (and make the walk). That would include enough time to try out your lie to see if it's worse than the alternative. Even then, once the group thinks you've had enough time, the 30 seconds starts whether you have made the choice (and the walk) or not.

Obviously, falsely pretending you might be thinking about moving the lie would be unsportsmanlike. Better to get a harmless time warning than a DQ.


"During" means that the clock runs while the playing area is clear. Or, to put it another way, if the playing area is not clear the clock freezes. It does not reset. When the crowd moves out of the way, you get whatever remains of your 30 seconds.


These are all designed to make the rule work in the way players want to enforce it.

You should never need to feel rushed, but only waste time when it's NOT your turn to throw.

The group knows when you are wasting time; there are no technicalities you can invoke to legally waste time.​

 

[Rastnav]

…
Your foot no longer contacts the real estate from the previous lie which you also can't go back to at this point either. This is your determined lie.
…

Again, my point is that I think starting to rules lawyer here actually breaks the rule because of its ambiguity, but, as we are determined to push at this thing in the service of truth and a good internet argument … here we go.

It's my understanding that the above is not true. You can place a disc back behind the marker disc as you wish.

I've seen it discussed on here and I believe I've seen it discussed on pro tournament coverage. I can't seem to find it specifically mentioned in the Q&A section except in the discussion of abandoned throws which states that you can always go back and remark your previous lie.

You haven't given up the right to play from where the disc came to rest just because you marked it. In point of fact, once your disc comes to rest in a "normal" manner on the playing surface (IOW, there isn't anything special or noteworthy about it) you effectively have two lies simultaneously. You aren't at any point mandated to use either of them until you execute the throw. Once the disc has come to rest, you've established both of these lies. There aren't any decisions that need to be made about what the two lies you could use are.

But IMO we shouldn't be calling people simply for taking 35 seconds to throw that one time, whether or not the marked their lie after 15 seconds. As I said the rule is too ambiguous for these type of sharp gradations. Conversely, if you are consistently taking 55 seconds to throw, I'm not going to care that you consistently mark your disc after 29 seconds. That's not how this rule works and you'd just be a jerk who is imposing on the card and attempting to bend the rules.

 

[Rastnav]

…
However, if you are in a situation where you may need to decide whether to go to a drop zone, or whether to abandon the throw, the 30 seconds does not start until you've had enough time to figure that out (and make the walk). That would include enough time to try out your lie to see if it's worse than the alternative. Even then, once the group thinks you've had enough time, the 30 seconds starts whether you have made the choice (and the walk) or not.
…

That was a very illuminating post, Steve.

I think you said a couple of things here that are significant and aren't in the letter of the rules, things that I am trying to get at.

One is that there is an implicit right to attempt to achieve a "good" stance. You obviously don't have the right have a decent stance, of course. But when you are in tricky lies you get a "reasonable" amount of time to figure out whether it's even possible to stand there. Just because I can reach above my head and touch the spot on the hill where the disc is, it doesn't mean I've actually reached my lie. Just because I'm within a few feet of my disc in the thick brush or bushes, less than a body length, it doesn't mean I've reached my lie.

The second is that the clock doesn't start until "the card determines you have had a reasonable amount of time to …" I'm not sure whether you actually meant that the card needs consensus before someone starts a timer, but that's an interesting idea. Again, this goes to the idea that the 30 second rule is actually ambiguous rather than a simple shot clock.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

So as far as having two lies simultaneously... the way I understand it is you have to properly mark your disc or be penalized for incorrectly marking your lie. You can throw from behind your disc that landed, or mark in front with a mini but you can not pick that disc up and throw it without marking it.

Once it's marked I don't know of any provision to go backwards to the previous lie.

Has anyone ever marked in front with a mini, picked up the thrown disc and then replaced it with another disc and picked up the mini?

There's 60cm of space that could be used for one's stance, the lie is the place where you take a stance, the box for legal footing is 30cm.. These are two different lies which you need to choose from but don't have the option to use simultaneously.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I guess the reason I don't want to let this one go is unfair persecution when you play 16 or 17 holes at breakneck speed and have a couple toughies. With the sudden recent attention in a competition for money I'm concerned that this is something that will come up more often with cranky buggers trying to gain a stroke or mental advantage (the same sorts that scarred me for life with foot fault calls)

Do you register an opposition to your warning if/when called for excessive time and then debate when the clock should have started? Object again if you are penalized? Keep notes and then take this all over afterwards to an overwhelmed TD to judicate after the round?

There's people with a history of slow play and people with a history of fast play... does this suddenly factor into a TD's opinion of who is guilty and who isn't?

They might as well have called it the Nikko rule, we all saw this day coming and I doubt if any of us thought it would go well for him when it was enforced.

It was all a matter of time....

 

[Rastnav]

I guess the reason I don't want to let this one go is unfair persecution when you play 16 or 17 holes at breakneck speed and have a couple toughies.
...
They might as well have called it the Nikko rule, we all saw this day coming and I doubt if any of us thought it would go well for him when it was enforced.

You aren't describing what happened with Nikko, at all, though. He was (apparently) taking way more than 30 seconds frequently, even after he got the warning for excessive time.

He took a full minute when he finally got called for the penalty on his final approach shot.

And it still wouldn't have cost him anything more than a single stroke if he hadn't gone full "This! Is! Sparta!" on the official.

But, you aren't wrong that the rule exists specifically because of people like Nikko.

 

[Steve West]

...
The second is that the clock doesn't start until "the card determines you have had a reasonable amount of time to …" ...

Did I say "the card determines"? Is that in the rule? If not, who are you quoting?

Words are important. Punctuation is important. Quote marks are especially powerful and should be used very carefully.

 

[jenb]

For clarity -

810.A - If a thrown disc has moved after having come to rest on the in-bounds playing surface, it is replaced to where it first came to rest, as agreed on by the group. A thrown disc that has come to rest elsewhere does not need to be replaced, and its position is based on where it first came to rest, as agreed on by the group.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying 810.A stops that. Your disc would be replaced (actually called OB and the lie would be changed to it's last inbounds point - before the passer by got involved)

A disc floating to the edge of the pond would not suddenly become in bounds, once it hits the water and has stopped moving from it's own volition that position is the important one. Any drift afterwards is incidental.

Check the pdga rules faq. You'll see where I got it.

 

[Rastnav]

Did I say "the card determines"? Is that in the rule? If not, who are you quoting?

Words are important. Punctuation is important. Quote marks are especially powerful and should be used very carefully.

The quote marks were there to denote a phrase that was encompassed within a sentence, not an exact quotation. My apologies for the inexactness.

Here is the sentence that made me think this was what was implied:

Even then, once the group thinks you've had enough time, the 30 seconds starts whether you have made the choice (and the walk) or not.

 

[Steve West]

The quote marks were there to denote a phrase that was encompassed within a sentence, not an exact quotation. My apologies for the inexactness.

Here is the sentence that made me think this was what was implied:

Thanks for finding that.

It is not a group decision. I used "group" a little loosely to mean one or two players in the group. My bad.

Excess Time is a rules violation that falls under D. and E. below.

801.02 Enforcement
Last updated: Friday, December 1, 2017 - 10:34
________________________________________
[…]
C. A player in the group may call or confirm a rules violation on any player in the group by notifying all players in the group.
D. A warning is the initial advisement a player is given for violating certain rules; subsequent violations of the rule incur penalty throws. A call for a rules violation that results in a warning does not need to be confirmed to be enforced. Warnings do not carry over from one round to the next, nor to a playoff.
E. A call made by a player for a rules violation that results in one or more penalty throws can only be enforced if the call is confirmed by another player in the group or by a Tournament Official. A penalty throw is a throw added to a player's score for violating a rule, or for relocation of the lie as called for by a rule.