Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Sheep]

Yup, this is the thing that bothers me most about nose-angle talk lol.

This is one of my best working video's in years. I've not had this level of views/interaction for 10+ years on a video.
And those video's are all hidden cause they are firearms related and I don't do that content on my channel anymore.

A vast majority of my subscribers are actually other gun channels or dead people.
RIP Justin

Anyone can support #justinsfinalmission which is veterans housing and fundraising for disabled veterans. Justin passed a number of years ago sadly, what a dude. Should be able to find any of that content on youtubes with the hashtag

 

[StupendousMan]

But I think its safe to agree there are movements which are acceptable and movements which are bad, even though they work. Because its not the "now" issue, its the "when" issue.
Such as Calvins form. He has an elbow issue. "well he's not having any backhand problems." Cool story. That doesn't mean what he's doing isn't causing that muscle issue that only affects his forehand.

Very important point. A mentor coach of mine had a very simple (simple, not easy) guide to determine when it was appropriate to make biomechanical modifications. It was a 2 answer series to the question "should I change this". Question 1: Is what the athlete is doing now going to lead to injury? Question 2: Will the change improve their performance? If you answered yes to either, make the change. If the answer to both was no, then don't. The not easy part is identifying when those answers are yes an no, because it's not always easy to tell.

 

[Brychanus]

This is why a lot of posture things are important and why some topics like the nose angle thing are a really deep rabbit hole.

Yup, this is the thing that bothers me most about nose-angle talk lol.

FWIW this is why as TechDisc marches on I keep gently nudging people to consider the big picture of the overall move.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I realize this may slightly derail the thread, but this is sparking an interesting convo note to me. In a lot of sports we see and hear all the time of truly elite people with "bad" form. This is usually accompanied by "How much better could this person be if they just learned to do X". I think a lot of the time is "potentially worse". One of the more recent examples I can think of in track is the new female triple jump world record holder, Yulimar Rojas. As far as being a technically sound triple jump in terms of phase breakdowns, it falls very short of the mark, and much more resembles a young high schooler trying the event for the first time. But, she's got the bloody world record. She's literally done it better than anyone ever. So, who are we to say "well you're doing it wrong". When/if she breaks her world record again, it's not going to be by "fixing" the thing she does poorly, it's going to be by exploiting the things she does incredibly well. Hell, look at Jason Belmonte in bowling. He got sooo much flack for being the 'two-handed' guy and bowling wrong, but the results speak for themselves. Would he have been a better bowler if he'd learned to do it "right"? Probably not.


I'm thinking too of the US Air Force and their flawed cockpit design where they tried to build the 'universal cockpit' that wound up fitting no one. At the end of the day in sports, we teach to models, but with the knowledge no one is ever going to fit those models perfectly.

Do you think there is a difference in what constitutes good form between sports that are based on producing the biggest possible force (jumping, throwing and so on) and sports that are based on precision like bowling?

Yulimar Rojas has to use the mechanics that constitute a good jump in order to jump far, otherwise she could not produce such a good amount of force to carry her.

However, here is a video of someone throwing 600 feet and sidewinder pointing out significant flaws in his form a few comments down: 600' with crap form (or maybe unknown perfect form)

As for the second category of precision, I guess anything goes as long as you have practiced it often enough and can keep balance with your move. That also explains the huge variety in putting styles, even though most pros would emphasize to keep the motion simple.

As to your last point: I could never accept this, till looking through all the form threads and seeing people keep a recogniseable way to move over years of form coaching. Also pros moving differently with very similar outcomes even if some of them seem to do it differently but end up landing in the same spots:

 

[itlnstln]

As to your last point: I could never accept this, till looking through all the form threads and seeing people keep a recogniseable way to move over years of form coaching. Also pros moving differently with very similar outcomes even if some of them seem to do it differently but end up landing in the same spots:

I know I've probably mentioned this before, but back in the old DGR days, Blake would harp on observing similarities in different forms in addition to the differences. We as humans tend to focus on the differences as a matter of course.

Differences in forms like the Brinster hop vs. the shuffle step vs. a "standard" X-step aren't really better or worse as long as they get to the intended outcome of a proper brace. Same with a standard reach back vs. bent elbow, etc.

The things that most pros are doing well are:

1. proper posture
2. proper balance
3. proper weight shift
4. not rounding
5. proper acceleration through the hit
6. actually hitting the disc
7. proper follow through
8. (a million other things I'm too busy to remember or type)

How they get there isn't too terribly important (barring injury risk, of course), but there's probably some "hows" that are more efficient, easier to execute, etc. It's part of how you get forms so divergent like Dave Feldberg and Avery Jenkins, for example

Even after playing for over 17 years, I'm still working with my in-person coach on footwork, making my swing more efficient, and so on. While I can hit my gaps and throw over 400', at 45 y/o the bad footwork and over rotation of my upper body (I turn back in backswing a little instead of coiling properly) is causing hip/SI joint pain, and I'm leaking power in my brace. I've just been able to mask the problems with smashing and directing the hit. But I'm not going to do that for much longer if I don't fix the other areas of my mechanics even if that means having re-work on the hit, timing, aiming, etc. Things like TechDisc might show great numbers, but that's no consolation if I need a hip replacement in 5 years. (Also, I've been One Leg Drilling like an MFer lately; definitely helping)

 

[Brychanus]

Do you think there is a difference in what constitutes good form between sports that are based on producing the biggest possible force (jumping, throwing and so on) and sports that are based on precision like bowling?

Yulimar Rojas has to use the mechanics that constitute a good jump in order to jump far, otherwise she could not produce such a good amount of force to carry her.

However, here is a video of someone throwing 600 feet and sidewinder pointing out significant flaws in his form a few comments down: 600' with crap form (or maybe unknown perfect form)

As for the second category of precision, I guess anything goes as long as you have practiced it often enough and can keep balance with your move. That also explains the huge variety in putting styles, even though most pros would emphasize to keep the motion simple.

As to your last point: I could never accept this, till looking through all the form threads and seeing people keep a recogniseable way to move over years of form coaching. Also pros moving differently with very similar outcomes even if some of them seem to do it differently but end up landing in the same spots:

Lol I remember that one. I think we'd all appreciate a "weird" forms bombing thread at this point.

I know I've probably mentioned this before, but back in the old DGR days, Blake would harp on observing similarities in different forms in addition to the differences. We as humans tend to focus on the differences as a matter of course.

Do we focus on the forest, or focus on the trees?

Snowflake analogy still works for me. "Fundamentals" are whatever the common backbone is that is conserved. Then there are individual differences on the theme. Even the "weird" forms usually have "the look" overall.

Or do they? When is a snowflake no longer a snowflake (obvious political jokes aside)?

 

[seedlings]

Building YOUR swing is important because we all move different.

QFT. I don't have perfect form. I'm almost 50 and my right knee is hard to squat past 90dgrees due to meniscus surgery over a decade ago. There are some 'ideal' swing motions that I'll never be able to recreate.

BUT! Once I know 'my' form, I can start tweaking the auxiliary 'fuzzy' areas of the form to get some noticeable improvements… like inverse swoop, turn the key, body angle, grip, brace leg position…

While everyone talks past each other (to some extent), there's still great content. Unfortunately I can mostly read and ponder, unable to give real input.

 

[Sheep]

Very important point. A mentor coach of mine had a very simple (simple, not easy) guide to determine when it was appropriate to make biomechanical modifications. It was a 2 answer series to the question "should I change this". Question 1: Is what the athlete is doing now going to lead to injury? Question 2: Will the change improve their performance? If you answered yes to either, make the change. If the answer to both was no, then don't. The not easy part is identifying when those answers are yes an no, because it's not always easy to tell.

This is fantastic way to look at it. I like that.

FWIW this is why as TechDisc marches on I keep gently nudging people to consider the big picture of the overall move.

They are welcome to send me one. haha
Cause I'm not paying. I have thousands upon thousands of dollars tied up in disc golf from promoting tournaments, local club stuff, donations to churches/schools for discs. Time. etc.

However, here is a video of someone throwing 600 feet and sidewinder pointing out significant flaws in his form a few comments down: 600' with crap form (or maybe unknown perfect form)

To be fair, he's not throwing a golf throw. he's throwing a distance force line. And probably a tailwind.

Remember that ole thing all the dummies on the course would tell the new players "lean back a bit, it will help you get distance." Then they throwing that force annie flex forever on forehand and backhand with OS discs?
And they become a good golfer with terrible form.
Then everyone looks at me trying to help as an idiot cause this dude is slaying me with his bad form, and they need help and will listen to him, so he repeats the cycle.

This is the overall problem with golf in general, The perpetuation of unintentional bad coaching. People want pro's to teach them, despite the pro knowing almost nothing about actually coaching form.
And they are always unwilling to listen to anyone who doesn't throw far or score good.

Yeah, not scoring good here, I'm throwing backhand turnovers on hyzer holes to practice it so I'm scoring poorly. Yeah. GG on that analogy there.

This is like the trigger of all triggers for coaching and coaches I think.
"oh you suck, so you must not know anything."

And I always wanna reply "Yeah, I know your mom sucks good dick tho" .. but I don't.
I just let them continue to hurt themselves and complain.

QFT. I don't have perfect form. I'm almost 50 and my right knee is hard to squat past 90dgrees due to meniscus surgery over a decade ago. There are some 'ideal' swing motions that I'll never be able to recreate.

BUT! Once I know 'my' form, I can start tweaking the auxiliary 'fuzzy' areas of the form to get some noticeable improvements… like inverse swoop, turn the key, body angle, grip, brace leg position…

While everyone talks past each other (to some extent), there's still great content. Unfortunately I can mostly read and ponder, unable to give real input.

Working around injuries is probably the most interesting part of coaching. I"m fortunate with my injuries they dont hinder overall mobility, but they have strength limitations imposed on me. especially my knee's. I have to be careful bracing or my knee will splode.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Remember that ole thing all the dummies on the course would tell the new players "lean back a bit, it will help you get distance." Then they throwing that force annie flex forever on forehand and backhand with OS discs?
And they become a good golfer with terrible form.
Then everyone looks at me trying to help as an idiot cause this dude is slaying me with his bad form, and they need help and will listen to him, so he repeats the cycle.

I have literally never heard that might be a US thing. IME the trouble with new players is getting them to not throw noob hyzers really high.

I know I've probably mentioned this before, but back in the old DGR days, Blake would harp on observing similarities in different forms in addition to the differences. We as humans tend to focus on the differences as a matter of course.

Or do they? When is a snowflake no longer a snowflake (obvious political jokes aside)?

View attachment 336501

I will just focus on what sheep goes over here with the swoop by Calvin:



As I understand it Calvin swooping (I know it as dipping) during his throw is putting strain on his elbow as the elbow is not built for sideways forces. Staying with the snowflake analogy it means one of the arms of the snowflake is crooked while other parts are in tact. So what we call bad form here just means that one part of the throw is suboptimal compared to other top throwers. Someone like Will Schusterick will have all arms of the snowflake intact and the pattern of the snowflake would be particarly pleasing to look at with a clear structure. Someone like Corey Ellis might have all arms of the snowflake intact but it might not be particarly pretty.

 

[Sheep]

I have literally never heard that might be a US thing. IME the trouble with new players is getting to not throw noob hyzers really high.



I will just focus on what sheep goes over here with the swoop by Calvin:



As I understand it Calvin swooping (I know it as dipping) during his throw is putting strain on his elbow as the elbow is not built for sideways forces. Staying with the snowflake analogy it means one of the arms of the snowflake is crooked while other parts are in tact. So what we call bad form here just means that one part of the throw is suboptimal compared to other top throwers. Someone like Will Schusterick will have all arms of the snowflake intact and the pattern of the snowflake would be particarly pleasing to look at with a clear structure. Someone like Corey Ellis might have all arms of the snowflake intact but it might not be particarly pretty.

I'd not really call it "bad form" but a "bad mechanic"

Calvins form overall is pretty good. But the side load on his elbow as he snaps it down and through is really bad.

I was looking at Seppo this morning and he used to do it as well.
Guess of the 2 of these who's not touring anymore cause of injuries?

 

[Brychanus]

I have literally never heard that might be a US thing. IME the trouble with new players is getting to not throw noob hyzers really high.



I will just focus on what sheep goes over here with the swoop by Calvin:



As I understand it Calvin swooping (I know it as dipping) during his throw is putting strain on his elbow as the elbow is not built for sideways forces. Staying with the snowflake analogy it means one of the arms of the snowflake is crooked while other parts are in tact. So what we call bad form here just means that one part of the throw is suboptimal compared to other top throwers. Someone like Will Schusterick will have all arms of the snowflake intact and the pattern of the snowflake would be particarly pleasing to look at with a clear structure. Someone like Corey Ellis might have all arms of the snowflake intact but it might not be particarly pretty.

I like that analogy (bent snowflake).

There RowingBoats or Chris Taylor might say we're reaching a bit as non-physicians, and non-world class performers (which IMHO is fair).

I generally am just as interested in safety (I put "wear and tear" that doesn't ever reach an acute injury stage in this category, things like causes of arthritis) as I am in power, though.

One of the issues in disc golf is that we know a lot of people get injured in one way or another, and we can learn from studies in other sports about trends that seem to correlate to injury, but understanding any given injury in any given player requires a few assumptions most of the time. Some people also tend to think about injuries and say "well that's sports," and to an extent of course that is true, but it is fair to ask whether some mechanics are safer than others in general or for a specific player, and what it implies for longevity and performance.

I am generally the most attracted to high-performing forms that appear smooth and try to learn the most from them, all the time assuming that they are better from a safety perspective. There are plenty of smooth-looking forms at the top level with a ton of power, and even my modest form appears pretty smooth but I can tell you it involves a certain kind of athleticism. Is my form really "safer" than some of the alternate moves I could pick up? I can't really know because of the path I took to get where I am so far, haven't seen where I'm at in 20 years, can't isolate every variable etc.

I do try to learn from injuries when they happen (Seppo, Tattar, Gibson, McBeth, Calvin, Eagle, etc.). Trouble is you get very few observations, and they're always nested within that person, and I have to make some leaps of knowledge and logic for each one. Then you get the dramatic number of players and forms that seem to throw day in and day out and I'd believe that while people would admit to inflammation and other things, they are not appearing to take significant acute injuries (though it feels like they are becoming more common with the on-tour demands these days).

 

[Lumberjack504]

I've been gone a while and all this nose angle talk is kind of fascinating.

I was always in the more 'holistic view' camp with respect to a good nose down flight where it boils down to:
A sound grip alignment and weight/balance on the front leg.

 

[sidewinder22]

GG pronating here, not supinating.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

GG pronating here, not supinating.
View attachment 341756

Do you have the frames leading up to release?

 

[timothy42b]

GG pronating here, not supinating.
View attachment 341756

Wow, that's pretty clear.

And it's a hammerfist rather than a backfist, in martial arts terms. I don't think I could get my hand on the disc like that early in the throw though.

That's the exact opposite of that "flip" on Overthrow, right? the one that gives nose down?

 

[sidewinder22]

Do you have the frames leading up to release?

Just a photo from GG's FB.

 

[sidewinder22]

Wow, that's pretty clear.

And it's a hammerfist rather than a backfist, in martial arts terms. I don't think I could get my hand on the disc like that early in the throw though.

That's the exact opposite of that "flip" on Overthrow, right? the one that gives nose down?

I'm betting it's nose down. I can pronate and still regularly get nose down on my tech disc. Josh and I were having this discussion/argument when we did that interview last year before tech disc was out.

 

[itlnstln]

I'm betting it's nose down. I can pronate and still regularly get nose down on my tech disc. Josh and I were having this discussion/argument when we did that interview last year before tech disc was out.

GG could be doing a thumb push, or OG key turn, which is basically a pronation. It would also interesting to see if he pronates after the hit.

 

[419HondaGuy]

GG could be doing a thumb push, or OG key turn, which is basically a pronation. It would also interesting to see if he pronates after the hit.

I am going to guess its right after the hit. I was taught this by Marty Peters, used when I didn't want a disc to flip over like throwing into a headwind for example, also used for needing a hyzer flip on a lower line that wouldn't get a lot of lift on the flight.
Or maybe, I am totally off, and his intentions are something totally different.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I'm betting it's nose down. I can pronate and still regularly get nose down on my tech disc. Josh and I were having this discussion/argument when we did that interview last year before tech disc was out.

Please film yourself with the tech disc pronating into the hit (not after) and getting nose down. I haven't seen any convincing evidence that it is viable for nose down.

GG doesn't normally pronate into the hit so it seems a bit misleading to imply it's nose down, especially with no context since it's a still image. I think it's more likely either him trying to throw nose up, or it happened after the hit, or was a mistake. It would be really strange if pronation and the opposite, supination, are both nose down. We have a lot more tech disc evidence (and footage with disc flights, I'd argue) that supination is nose down, but you could add your pronation tech disc evidence, which would be cool and fascinating if it holds up to slow mo footage review.

GG normally turns the key (supinates), sometimes so hard the disc bends from it. Pics are from the intro to the linked vid and hole 1: