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Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

Hi John,

I was wondering if you have a standard deviation in Pro level scores you shoot for when designing a hole? Could you please share with us your target range for score standard deviation if you have one?

Thanks! Scott

OK, one more for tonight. Eventually, I'm going to have to face Rodney...

Scott, as much as I like score variances, and as much as I think it's important to tolerate the deviations of certain disc golfers, I think we need to be careful not to put science above art. I did a double major in Math and English, so I have a great appreciation for statistical analysis (and I can write about why), but I think we can take numbers too far in course design.

Score variance is very important, but I think we're better off when we use it as a diagnostic tool than when we look at it as an end in itself. And in the real world, it's not like we generally have the choice of so many nice pin positions and tee placements that we could say, "Well, if I move the tee here and the pin here, I can maximize my sigma values while keeping my scenic component within a delta tolerance..." At this point, I think we're happy when we can make beautiful and challenging holes that have good score variances.

As a matter of practical advice, I urge all designers to remember that a good hole has good score variance, but having good score variance doesn't make a hole good. (Sometimes holes yield a variety of scores because they're poorly designed.)

Thanks,
John
 
Nantucket, as in MA? do you have any more details on the course or ideas of when it might be done?

That's the one, Solomon. When I was there last month we had a great walkthrough with six representatives from the state Department of Conservation and Recreation, so that was good start.

Right now the final proposal is being put together for review by the nice people at the Massachusetts Natural Heritage and Endangered Species Program. I hope they'll feel that we did enough to minimize impact on the the sensitive moth habitat, and that they'll give the course the green light.

Construction will be very labor-intensive, as there are a lot of dead trees to take down (and probably even more dead trees already on the ground). But it's going to be a great course. There are several holes that I really love, and I feel like I was able to realize some new concepts there. I went into this project with high hopes, and the land really cooperated. I left very encouraged.

I hope we get the approval soon, and I hope players will enjoy the course as much as I do.
 
Zen and the art of disc golf course design

OK, one more for tonight. Eventually, I'm going to have to face Rodney...

Scott, as much as I like score variances, and as much as I think it's important to tolerate the deviations of certain disc golfers, I think we need to be careful not to put science above art. I did a double major in Math and English, so I have a great appreciation for statistical analysis (and I can write about why), but I think we can take numbers too far in course design.

Score variance is very important, but I think we're better off when we use it as a diagnostic tool than when we look at it as an end in itself. And in the real world, it's not like we generally have the choice of so many nice pin positions and tee placements that we could say, "Well, if I move the tee here and the pin here, I can maximize my sigma values while keeping my scenic component within a delta tolerance..." At this point, I think we're happy when we can make beautiful and challenging holes that have good score variances.

As a matter of practical advice, I urge all designers to remember that a good hole has good score variance, but having good score variance doesn't make a hole good. (Sometimes holes yield a variety of scores because they're poorly designed.)

Thanks,
John

I'm reading Pirsig right now, so I see this as the age old conflict of Classical(science) vs. Romantic(art) thought. I suppose a good designer is able to play on both the beauty and the science when designing a good hole.

Great response Mr. Houck, thanks for you feedback.
 
As one of the developers of more scientific/mathematical aspects in course design, I think some get the idea that that is how those of us who use these concepts do their design work from scratch. Not true. Visual hole design, aesthetics, route shaping, balance and flow are more artistic concepts that lead the way for perhaps all designers. However, where many designers fall down is not then applying the science/math and statistical methods to tweak those designs so they also play well or better for the intended player skill level. That's the, so far, little tapped frontier in hole design.
 
John,

Has the Rochester club been in touch with you at all recently, regarding the recent redesign of the Parma course? The only things I know for sure that changed (they did everything this weekend while I was getting my BUTT kicked at Black Diamond @ Emery Park) is that the VFW told them to take out hole 2 for casual play and they varied up some things between hole s12-15 I guess. And cement!

\/\/
 
John, what can we do about Houston DG and the plague of having only one designer putting in 25+ lame courses?

I have mentioned your name at every junction but want to start doing something myself to get some quality courses installed instead of pursuing just quantity.

Sincerely,
Matt Hall
 
John, what can we do about Houston DG and the plague of having only one designer putting in 25+ lame courses?

I have mentioned your name at every junction but want to start doing something myself to get some quality courses installed instead of pursuing just quantity.

Sincerely,
Matt Hall

Move away from Houston....
 
John, what can we do about Houston DG and the plague of having only one designer putting in 25+ lame courses?

I have mentioned your name at every junction but want to start doing something myself to get some quality courses installed instead of pursuing just quantity.

Sincerely,
Matt Hall

Hi, Matt --

Good to hear from you. While I appreciate the compliments and like to help people as much as possible, I hope you understand that I really want this use this forum to discuss my thoughts on course design issues rather than as a place to discuss other designers' work.

To be fair to Houston, I'm sure a lot of readers out there would consider having 25 courses of any type a blessing, and there are a few nice ones there in Houston. But I don't want to criticize other designers' hard work; I don't feel that would be appropriate or helpful. We're all doing our best to support the game of disc golf.

I would love to do some great courses in the Houston area; it's close to home, and we do have lots of friends there, including you. All that being said, send me your thoughts in a private e-mail, and let's talk about what your vision is.

Thanks,
John
 
John,

Has the Rochester club been in touch with you at all recently, regarding the recent redesign of the Parma course? The only things I know for sure that changed (they did everything this weekend while I was getting my BUTT kicked at Black Diamond @ Emery Park) is that the VFW told them to take out hole 2 for casual play and they varied up some things between hole s12-15 I guess. And cement!

\/\/

Will, I haven't heard anything from Rochester in quite a while, so I don't have any update for you. But it is typical for the PDGA to do a follow-up review, and I'm hoping the process will continue.

Thanks,
John
 
I hope this doesn't sound petty, because it actually could be a bigger issue and factor where I live. Have you ever had a bug problem on a course? If so, how did you handle it? I know everywhere has bugs, that's not what I mean. I live in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and we don't have bugs. We have these modified, bionic hybrid versions of bugs. There are some courses here I won't play until fall, just because of the bug issues.

We have a great location for an excellent course, and the county is about to start working on it. I drove through the area, and my truck was swarmed with deer flies. I know SC is known for it's bug problems, but I didn't know if you had run into this before. If not, they may just have to sell Deet at the rec center. A bug spray vending machine! lol What are your thoughts?
 
Awaiting comment that everything; including bugs; is bigger in Texas.

They are bigger in Texas, but they are more Blood thirsty in South Carolina! ;)

I've seen spiders in Texas that are as big as a small bird!
 
I hope this doesn't sound petty, because it actually could be a bigger issue and factor where I live. Have you ever had a bug problem on a course? If so, how did you handle it? I know everywhere has bugs, that's not what I mean. I live in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and we don't have bugs. We have these modified, bionic hybrid versions of bugs. There are some courses here I won't play until fall, just because of the bug issues.

We have a great location for an excellent course, and the county is about to start working on it. I drove through the area, and my truck was swarmed with deer flies. I know SC is known for it's bug problems, but I didn't know if you had run into this before. If not, they may just have to sell Deet at the rec center. A bug spray vending machine! lol What are your thoughts?

the deet vending machine is an awesome idea!!!
 
I hope this doesn't sound petty, because it actually could be a bigger issue and factor where I live. Have you ever had a bug problem on a course? If so, how did you handle it? I know everywhere has bugs, that's not what I mean. I live in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and we don't have bugs. We have these modified, bionic hybrid versions of bugs. There are some courses here I won't play until fall, just because of the bug issues.

We have a great location for an excellent course, and the county is about to start working on it. I drove through the area, and my truck was swarmed with deer flies. I know SC is known for it's bug problems, but I didn't know if you had run into this before. If not, they may just have to sell Deet at the rec center. A bug spray vending machine! lol What are your thoughts?

Funny you should ask, Russ, because I just came back from working on a very buggy course.

By the way, it's good to be back, and I'm sorry I've been away from DGCR for so long. Thanks for hanging in there, everyone.

I've been in (on?) Prince Edward Island the last couple weeks, working on what is going to be an absolutely amazing course. I'm very excited about it, and there are several holes there that will be relevant to some of the things we're talking about here. In particular, I got to spend some quality time working on the question of what it takes to make a great par five.

There were also a LOT of bugs in certain areas. There were a few spots where I was just about swarmed with mosquitoes and black flies. Enough that I got several stuck in my eye, if that helps you gauge the density. Surprisingly, they weren't biting, for the most part -- I have no idea how to explain that, other than they'd never seen a human before. That shouldn't have stopped them.

So what do you do? First, I guess you hope that opening an area up, mowing it, and helping it dry up will reduce the population of flying insects. If that doesn't help, and if some areas are too unpleasant to play, I would consider routing the course away from those areas, just as you would with boggy areas, areas with thorny plants, very rocky areas, or dangerous areas.

As for the new course you're talking about, if the bugs are just everywhere, what options are left, other than not putting in the course? At some point you just have to deal with what you have, and players will have to choose whether or not to come out and use it.

The worst bug situation I ever dealt with was in Port Arthur, Texas, site of the PDGA Pro Worlds in 1994 and '95. On my initial trip there to work on the first course (which ultimately became known as Berry's Treasure), I got to the back of the property and took a step that brought up a cloud of something, like a cloud of dust or dirt, but it was actually a cloud of mosquitoes. It was crazy. The course was pretty much unplayable unless the plane came over the island and sprayed the mosquitoes. Without that plane, we never could have had a tournament there. Of course, there was at least one player who wouldn't come because of all the pesticide, but so far just about everyone who played there seems to still be more-or-less normal.

The deer flies on the old ball golf course there could be pretty nasty, too, but only in certain shady spots.

The bottom line: in course design, as in life, you make the best of the hand you've been dealt. With your new course, you may find a new definition for the phrase "itching to play." You may also be able to raise record amounts of money for course improvements from deet sales. In any case, I wish you good luck.

Thanks,
John
 
In the case of elevated baskets, I don't think I've done it on any of my courses, but I think elevated baskets are a fair attempt to solve some of the problems with putting in disc golf.

I think you can make a strong case that driving, and sometimes approaching, is much more interesting in disc golf than in traditional golf. There's so much more you can do with a disc than with a golf ball. And our designers can offer a lot more strategy options off the tee and in the fairway. But I think that putting in ball golf is a lot more interesting and challenging, and it requires more thought. Most of all, it's far more dramatic to watch. So I have some of my own ideas on how we might bridge that gap, and we can discuss those when I've developed them further.

John, have you had a chance to develop these ideas further? I'd love to see top pros sweating over a 10-footer, instead of taking 30-footers as gimmes. This would also make drive placement much more important, allow for tougher short holes, keep older courses challenging, and let designers put more good holes on a smaller piece of land. Removing all the chains from the targets might do it. :)
 
John - If this has already been covered, I'm sorry...I haven't ready the entire thread.

We're in the midst of designing a course and I suggested a mando on a hole to 'take away' the easy hyzer route for right handed players and 'force' players to throw through six or seven scatted trees. The only other hazard is when players over throw the hole, they might end up in a lake. The lake is 75' behind the basket and the hole plays down hill 302'.

The questions and debate is some players think a mando should only be used for safety reasons and never to add difficulty to a hole. Your thoughts?
 
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