Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Sewer bill]

Disc golf coaches.

 

[Brychanus]

View attachment 336178
Disc golf coaches.

I read the Far Side every weekend growing up. I didn't remember this one and man the Wikipedia write up was fascinating. The first paragraph speaks for itself.

This was my favorite part:
"In one letter, a reader from Texas wrote that they had shown the cartoon to '40-odd professionals with doctoral degrees', and none could understand it."

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I want to see these guys do the doorframe drill. Their arm slots are wildly different with Barela slotting in much higher than Eagle - there is probably noone that slots in as low as eagle.

I want to pick on an idea you posted in the thread about Isaac Robinsons thread: Isaac Robinson's mechanics

Someone like Garrett Gurthie probably needs such a pronounced nose down release to get his discs down to the ground at all with his vertical form. His standard throw is so high he uses the nose down to control the height of the throw a little better which also results in a good way to throw for distance competitions.

Isaac also prefers a higher line of attack with pronounced nose down release, but he seems to do it more with a reverse swoop than turning the key.

View attachment 336177

I would guess that players prefering a lower line of attack would throw closer to a neutral nose than Gurthie and Robinson.

What do you think is the primary movement-adjustment in the reverse swoop. I'm not sure if what I was trying is what a good way to perform it.

Also can you clarify arm slot, is this amount of shoulder flexion?

 

[Brychanus]

What do you think is the primary movement-adjustment in the reverse swoop. I'm not sure if what I was trying is what a good way to perform it.

Also can you clarify arm slot, is this amount of shoulder flexion?

Yeah want to hear more about what he meant w/ reverse swoop. I think I understand how that move works with a hammer and part of it seems more powerful in different postures.

For arm slot I've tended to think of it as first shoulder flexion. Then you can also talk about some greater or lesser shoulder internal rotation on top of that, which also controls part of what we were talking about on your thread I think (though I guess I usually tend to think the internal rotation is probably just modifying the move "within" a slot. Not sure if others think differently).

Sidewinder used his "battering ram" drill to illustrate different arm slots.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yeah want to hear more about what he meant w/ reverse swoop. I think I understand how that move works with a hammer and part of it seems more powerful in different postures.

For arm slot I've tended to think of it as first shoulder flexion. Then you can also talk about some greater or lesser shoulder internal rotation on top of that, which also controls part of what we were talking about on your thread I think (though I guess I usually tend to think the internal rotation is probably just modifying the move "within" a slot. Not sure if others think differently).

Sidewinder used his "battering ram" drill to illustrate different arm slots.

Yeah bc to me doesn't look like Eagle is lower than a lot of people in terms of shoulder flexion. It looks lower when he is hyzer leaning and side bending but it's illusory I think.

Blurry pic but his upper arm to chest makes close to a 90 degree angle due to the amount of shoulder flexion. To me that's not low. Raising your arm that much is a chest high raise.

 

[sidewinder22]

Kyle seems to be getting nose down with pronation thru the release. His thumb is pointed down at the ground a couple frames after release.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah bc to me doesn't look like Eagle is lower than a lot of people in terms of shoulder flexion. It looks lower when he is hyzer leaning and side bending but it's illusory I think.

Blurry pic but his upper arm to chest makes close to a 90 degree angle due to the amount of shoulder flexion. To me that's not low. Raising your arm that much is a chest high raise.

Don't disagree in that still moment but let me throw another dynamic posture puzzle at you to chew on (that again I didn't understand at all until I learned to do it myself):

One of the things that could be happening (speaking from personal experience too) is that if the arm is functioning more like a "dingle arm," the lower arm is directing in toward the chest with the centrifugal force of the move and mass of the arm and disc. It will also interact with gravity and posture and sometimes make the disc appear to be higher by the time it "confronts" the player's center of mass (or wherever the action's main force is initially directed).

That's not a disagreement really, I'm just pointing out that if you conceptualize it as a dynamic process and confrontation of masses (player body and arm/disc "unit") it makes more sense why sidewinder teaches the Dingle arm in the extreme vertical at first. I posturally have a pretty "low" backswing most of the time and fairly vertical form, so the confrontation force between my arm mass and body is very high before it redirects back out. The arm is "levitating" relative to gravity while it is also going through the observable anatomical actions. So my arm is moving "between my navel and sternum", but the disc line appears a bit higher than that; sometimes when I don't redirect/resist or posture myself properly this effect is obvious and spoils the throw.

BTW this is one of those things that is either exactly "wrong" about form, or exactly "right" about what is missing from some players' forms who just try to watch video and force themselves to copy the actions without thinking about some of the dynamic causes and effects. It's important to mention that this model is heavily influenced by golf and baseball concepts.

SW might not agree with everything I just said there but hopefully I made a decent/agreeable approximation.

There is another model that potentially doesn't encode a confrontation of masses at all as far as I can tell, just giving you one thing to think about.

 

[Brychanus]

Kyle seems to be getting nose down with pronation thru the release. His thumb is pointed down at the ground a couple frames after release.

Yes I think I maybe see a little brief supinate then -> at very end pronate (thumb down at release)? Anyone else?

Maybe the way you can swing a dumbbell or hammer? Edit: it does seem like I can manipulate the degree and sequence or supination and pronation. One move seems to pronate all the way thru the pocket and into he release, ending thumb down. The other move seems to supinate, but still leverage the disc forward/ulnar deviate with the thumb at the end into the release. Seems to be able to do both with a relatively "closed"/internally rotated shoulder, but maybe slightly easier with pronation near the end. Does seem like the difference will affect nose angle coming out, can test/want to hear more.

This is kind of why I wish we had more complete arm path models for this stuff in general, and glad for all this chatter again!

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah bc to me doesn't look like Eagle is lower than a lot of people in terms of shoulder flexion. It looks lower when he is hyzer leaning and side bending but it's illusory I think.

Blurry pic but his upper arm to chest makes close to a 90 degree angle due to the amount of shoulder flexion. To me that's not low. Raising your arm that much is a chest high raise.

Oh hey you might like this/may actually help put weird words into action. Try the main Dingle arm drill super vertical. Just get that arm moving and try to pump it with your weight and body. Use your racket or hammer if you want. You arm will feel weightless and kind of just carry momentum through at part of the cycle, right?

Then do the two step reciprocating dingle arm with your hammer or racket. 3:09 or so here. Let your body tilt like a skiier back and forth. Notice a similar effect? That's part of what I'm talking about. If you let the arm/disc/hammer instead come toward your center or chest, what happens? Why is that fundamentally different than what you probably feel when you currently throw?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Oh hey you might like this/may actually help put weird words into action. Try the main Dingle arm drill super vertical. Just get that arm moving and try to pump it with your weight and body. Use your racket or hammer if you want. You arm will feel weightless and kind of just carry momentum through at part of the cycle, right?

Then do the two step reciprocating dingle arm with your hammer or racket. 3:09 or so here. Let your body tilt like a skiier back and forth. Notice a similar effect? That's part of what I'm talking about. If you let the arm/disc/hammer instead come toward your center or chest, what happens? Why is that fundamentally different than what you probably feel when you currently throw?

Yeah I feel the weightless arm momentum.

With the pickleball paddle and the two step it just feels more swingy and less pully but for me the disc throw just feels pully initially to get extra some explosive velocity going to then have a faster swingy spinny redirect. The initially pully part could be reduced but I feel less trust in my shoulder angle if I do that--but might revisit it now that it's been a while and I have more muscle memory to engage it enough to not collapse as much I hope. Hard to tell though with all the preconceived notions of form and what not but if I had to boil it down that's how I'd describe it.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah I feel the weightless arm momentum.

With the pickleball paddle and the two step it just feels more swingy and less pully but for me the disc throw just feels pully initially to get extra some explosive velocity going to then have a faster swingy spinny redirect. The initially pully part could be reduced but I feel less trust in my shoulder angle if I do that--but might revisit it now that it's been a while and I have more muscle memory to engage it enough to not collapse as much I hope. Hard to tell though with all the preconceived notions of form and what not but if I had to boil it down that's how I'd describe it.

Yes, interesting. Just trying to get you to notice this potential cause+effect & I'll be curious what you will discover if you view the shoulder angle as an effect of other forces/posture & sequence etc.

Forward vs. reverse engineering idea.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Kyle seems to be getting nose down with pronation thru the release. His thumb is pointed down at the ground a couple frames after release.

Does 'thru release' encompass any time before the release?

This is a good view even after release we're not seeing the outside edge of the pinky side of the palm which becomes visible from this angle during pronation:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes, interesting. Just trying to get you to notice this potential cause+effect & I'll be curious what you will discover if you view the shoulder angle as an effect of other forces/posture & sequence etc.

Forward vs. reverse engineering idea.

By spinny i meant rotational.

I know most the acceleration comes from the redirect but I feel / think if I have more velocity coming into the pocket it is forced to be redirected harder and adds to the redirect acceleration. In a YT comment Nick Krush seemed to agree with this notion (more speed into pocket).

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes, interesting. Just trying to get you to notice this potential cause+effect & I'll be curious what you will discover if you view the shoulder angle as an effect of other forces/posture & sequence etc.

Forward vs. reverse engineering idea.

I do want to experiment more with focusing on the feeling of not pulling into the pocket and instead just letting the arm fold as the rotation starts (just need to be more careful of collapse for me personally) and then trying to hold the disc in the pocket to build up energy before the redirect. It definitely looks like that in slow motion sometimes but slow mo can be deceiving.

 

[sidewinder22]

Does 'thru release' encompass any time before the release?

This is a good view even after release we're not seeing the outside edge of the pinky side of the palm which becomes visible from this angle during pronation:
View attachment 336180

Yes, thru the hit. I think Kyle's knuckles start from more underneath the disc facing more toward the ground, so they are moving up and what's really hard to see in that pic is how far forward his torso his leaning relative to the horizon. The thing about the thumb push is that the force is directed straight out, it's not trying to flip the disc under, or over like turn the key. The pronation happens to keep applying straight force longer, like trying to fling a quarter on a table with your thumb.

I did start out with 'set and forget' as my main strategy to offload as much cognitive overhead as possible to work on the other many form elements.

E.g., for 5 months:
1. set hyzer lean amount
2. set pour tea
4. set grip pressure
5. pick brace spot and runup line
6. set aim point and stare at it
7. set arm height for reachback height based on desired launch angle (aligned with Y axis of aim point)
8. runup on line to brace spot and just try to pull through on plane while everything else is set and maintained

I'm only now trying these dynamic things b/c I'm used to a lot of the other stuff and can actually quickly verify the results now with tech disc and because if I want to keep pushing my distance I need more nose down and set and forget pour tea wasn't cutting it. More speed will also help distance but lately that's been much harder to get than more nose down--low hanging fruit.

IMO you would be better off working on your form/posture/weightshift/swing efficiency rather than trying to flip the bird over to manufacture nose down. You are not getting on your front hip properly, you spin out and fall backward so your body tips upward/backward, and so you need something to compensate help get the nose down as your lead hip/shoulder get jacked upward and counter with the arm roll over. Also if your balance is on the backside of your hip while Corey and I are balanced forward on the hip then there will be some things that get reversed with the same motion. I think you have a lot of things working on your side like ape index and insane grip and upperbody strength being a climber.

Straight & Flat Swing Plane Does Not Exist!

 

[Brychanus]

^there too if you look at how SW's posture and move work, the "push the quarter with your thumb" analogy may end up making more sense to you.

Connection between arm and body action.

Edit: Philo's move works a little differently than Kyle's overall and always looked a bit like he could get a little more out of his form to me, but look at action thru pocket and into release:



~7:41

 

[koiyote]

Can you clarify what phase of the action you are talking about? Things can get weird to describe in words near the end of the action depending on what arm move is used. E.g., effect (2) could depend on what happens before that/the direction of the move relative to the shoulder. Some people "windmill" the arm clockwise, some more counterclockwise etc.

Supination and pronation can happen in waves as much as the backswing/forward-swing can. So you can pronate more on the backswing (James Proctor) and have a longer/larger turn the key move. You can also have a smaller mover and both supinate into the hit and then pronate out of the hit. The more you supinate and the longer the move into the hit the harder it will be to pronate after the hit. So it's not surprising with someone like Klein or AB that they can pronate after the hit because they didn't have an aggressive supination move into it.

 

[Brychanus]

Supination and pronation can happen in waves as much as the backswing/forward-swing can. So you can pronate more on the backswing (James Proctor) and have a longer/larger turn the key move. You can also have a smaller mover and both supinate into the hit and then pronate out of the hit. The more you supinate and the longer the move into the hit the harder it will be to pronate after the hit. So it's not surprising with someone like Klein or AB that they can pronate after the hit because they didn't have an aggressive supination move into it.

In terms of the action into and out of the "pocket," seems to be true in:

Two ways to backstroke.

Two ways to hammer or back fist in martial arts.

Two ways to hit a nail head with a hammer.


One is more Klein/"push the quarter/basketball chest pass. Sidewinder standstill.

One is more GG/"supinate and whip".

I tried each a bit in round just now. May just be me of course but just to mention: Klein seems to work "better" if I am more horizontal/emphasize lateral shift.

GG seems to work better if I am slightly more centrifugal.

Also related to degree of pronation heading into the peak of the backswing and little posture differences overall.


Can crack a whip a few ways.

 

[RowingBoats]

'stuff you can do wrong'... and so you need something to compensate help get the nose down

I feel like this is far more important than where the discussions about nose angle always gravitate towards (grip/deliberate wrist manipulation).

When you start to take some of the fundamental drills seriously, you can learn this yourself. I always kind of think the one-leg drill is one of the most important drills ever prescribed, and it can definitely help with nose angle as well. It can help with practically every aspect of the swing imo.

I don't know how basic the one-leg drill actually is, and where it fits in with a true beginners learning. I definitely kind of rebelled against the concept because it put the lie to SO many of my wrong ideas that I just didn't take it seriously for a bit, and in retrospect that was mostly out of obstinance lol.

I do think it is absolutely FOR SURE more basic than any type of active wrist manipulation to force the nose truly negative. If you are having nose up issues and also cannot perform a solid swing with complete balance on the front leg, that is where I would make myself start.

 

[Brychanus]

In terms of the action into and out of the "pocket," seems to be true in:

Two ways to backstroke.

Two ways to hammer or back fist in martial arts.

Two ways to hit a nail head with a hammer.


One is more Klein/"push the quarter/basketball chest pass. Sidewinder standstill.

One is more GG/"supinate and whip".

I tried each a bit in round just now. May just be me of course but just to mention: Klein seems to work "better" if I am more horizontal/emphasize lateral shift.

GG seems to work better if I am slightly more centrifugal.

Also related to degree of pronation heading into the peak of the backswing and little posture differences overall.


Can crack a whip a few ways.

Edit: Here talking more again about the whole move, not really any "cue" in particular. I'm not even sure I would describe them as entirely "different" actions in a holistic sense when I pay the most attention to the arm moving as a unit as it naturally unfolds (literally manipulating a key while braced on my right foot as SocraDeez suggested was interesting), maybe just modified versions of the "same" action in different contexts/different emphases. Hm.