Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[mashnut]

That is an interesting point.... it looks like you guys only used 5 extra baskets? So, that would probably cost just an extra $1500 for those baskets if we did something like that. We are using 2 pads for each hole anyway... so it wouldn't matter as far as extra concrete. Definitely something to think about because of that steep terrain. It is difficult because that steep terrain is something that will define some really cool shots, but it is a double-edged sword in that the terrain will make going back uphill difficult. So, a solution where a couple of holes would be light would be great.... but I doubt many people will pass on the massive downhill shot lmao.

IIRC there are more like 30 baskets total, some of the holes that share a fairway have two baskets installed and there are some holes that are completely separate. You could keep the basket cost down a little by only having separate tees on shared holes but that might limit your design a little more.

 

[dreadlock86]

sounds like you don't need to be so reticent about using the extreme elevation. players of all skill levels love the elevation! on the uphill fairways you can put the white box further up the hill so that you don't intimidate the less-skilled players as much.

 

[Cgkdisc]

We either used one tee to two baskets or two tees to one basket on each of the combo holes because the cost for contracted tees in Chicago area seems to be close to the cost of a completely prepped and poured pad. If you count it up, I think we have 30 baskets and 32 tees. We had extra baskets from the existing course that were refurbed plus existing hole routes already cleared making this approach viable.

 

[goosefraba1]

Thanks for the encouragement guys. I'm going to walk the land quite a bit on friday and should have a better understanding then as far as the best way to do this. On a positive note, parks is behind this 100% and the project has been approved by the board... so now we just have to design the darn the thing

 

[greg_b_4]

Thanks for the encouragement guys. I'm going to walk the land quite a bit on friday and should have a better understanding then as far as the best way to do this. On a positive note, parks is behind this 100% and the project has been approved by the board... so now we just have to design the darn the thing

Are you walking it with Johnny Sias? He's a master and if anyone can figure out what to do with that land it's Johnny.

 

[goosefraba1]

Are you walking it with Johnny Sias? He's a master and if anyone can figure out what to do with that land it's Johnny.

Unfortunately, Johnny has a lot on his plate right now and won't be able to help us. I'm sure that he will still help guide myself and drew Zeigler... but he has told me that he will not be able to design it like previously planned. It's all good though... we will do the best we can. Drew has worked on projects with Johnny before... and I have walked the land with Johnny... so I think we are on the same thought process as far as the property goes. Always open to any suggestions, though.

 

[goosefraba1]

Hey John.... I think that I have fixed a lot of problems just by walking the land more. I have a several great holes that I am mostly trying to link. This is the updated map... turns out that the clockwise rotation layout actually works better. I made a 3 hole loop 14-16 that has the more extreme elevation change and will be a very fun couple of holes. Since it is a loop, we can place a sign for the loop, stating the elevation change... and people can skip that section if need be. I don't think that many people will elect to skip these holes... but it allows the option.

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey John.... I think that I have fixed a lot of problems just by walking the land more.

That's great, and it would have been my suggestion. It's my best advice for all designers in that early stage: put the paper away and just walk. Walk until you feel like you've seen it all and understand it all. By that point you will no doubt have several ideas for holes that you like, maybe even dozens of holes. I find that the exploring stage is the most consistently fun part of the design process. So if you don't think you have a really good handle on all the acreage that you might use, I'd recommend that you walk some more and extend the fun.

After that, you can bring out the paper and start working on routing; from that point on the process alternates between joy and frustration. If I know I have to use a certain area between two holes I'm committed to, I may sketch all the possible ways to route that area, then go back out and see which way will work best. But whenever possible, I hope to let the land dictate the course, not the paper.

... I made a 3 hole loop 14-16 that has the more extreme elevation change and will be a very fun couple of holes.

Sounds like a good idea, and I'll be interested to hear how many people do skip the loop. I see that you went straight downhill and then used sidehills and a switchback to work your way back up, which is a technique I like. The thing I would look at is the fact that you're going straight uphill on the walk from #15 to #16. So, if you're tied to #15 and #16 being where they are, you might look at extending #15 up and/or extending #16 down, so that the transition is more sidehill and less uphill. If you ever do have to go straight uphill more than 100', I think players would generally prefer to do that while they're playing, not while they're transitioning.

It sounds like you're on the right track; keep us updated on your progress.

 

[DougCrawford]

Hello!

I am slowly planning a course at our family farm, and have 6 holes I am pretty confident in. From here on out, its the typical North Carolina scenery- which will involve lots of time with a chainsaw and brush hog.

What are some ways to create variety and uniqueness when 10+ of the holes will be carved out of the woods? There are a couple spots with good elevation change to work with, but in the flatter areas, I would hate to end up with several holes that play the same or seem repetitive.

Thanks!!

(p.s.- if this was covered in a previous post can someone link me the page?)

 

[Jukeshoe]

More from an aesthetic standpoint than design, but you could attempt to identify unique/interesting trees (i.e., a monster oak or oddly-shaped pine) that could become visual (if not necessarily design) focal points. Even if one out of three "flat wooded holes" have some interesting tree, or flowering bush off the side of the fairway, it'll create visual interest and act as cues for people to remember the course. "Remember that gigantic gnarled tree in the middle of the fairway?"

From a design standpoint you can always create dual-fairway holes that offer a high risk/reward "cheater route" as well as a safer, longer, harder-to-birdie "bailout" route.

We've used these methods with some good success on a course in MI where we had to totally cut out fairways from thick forest. I'm sure John will be able offer some other methods, but those are two that are fairly simple to implement.

 

[donnyv]

More from an aesthetic standpoint than design, but you could attempt to identify unique/interesting trees (i.e., a monster oak or oddly-shaped pine) that could become visual (if not necessarily design) focal points. Even if one out of three "flat wooded holes" have some interesting tree, or flowering bush off the side of the fairway, it'll create visual interest and act as cues for people to remember the course. "Remember that gigantic gnarled tree in the middle of the fairway?"

From a design standpoint you can always create dual-fairway holes that offer a high risk/reward "cheater route" as well as a safer, longer, harder-to-birdie "bailout" route.

We've used these methods with some good success on a course in MI where we had to totally cut out fairways from thick forest. I'm sure John will be able offer some other methods, but those are two that are fairly simple to implement.

^^^Right on Juke!
I'm implementing some of this on my course. I have a bunch of those larger-type or unique trees in the woods that just stand out above the rest. My biggest challenge is finding ways where they can be incorporated into the design AND still survive regular play. Minimizing damage from potential disc hits and compaction of the soil around the tree and it's roots are my biggest concerns. It can be done!

Another thing you could do (if possible) is to have the course going in and out of the woods. Example, hole 1 plays into/through the woods, while hole 2 plays out of the woods to a basket in the open. Hole 3 tees off in the open and goes back through the woods to a basket near a slope, etc.

Holes 20-24 (Blue tees) at Mill Creek are 5 consecutive longer wooded holes that are tough. Large trees, rolling terrain and a small stream break it up and give each hole it's own character. There are still a few smaller and dead trees that need to be cut to make better "Fair"ways but it's more of a wait and see for which will stay and which will go.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Those first two pics are great examples! Thanks for taking the time to post 'em! :hfive:

 

[johnrhouck]

Doug, you've already gotten some good advice from Jukeshoe and Donny. I agree that anything having to do with terrain features, including interesting trees, can help differentiate your holes in the woods. Besides unique features, there are plenty of other aspects you can vary to keep your holes different.

• Vary the slope: uphill, downhill, sidehill, up then down, down then up, etc.
• Vary the par. Out of 10 holes, I'll typically do something like 4 par threes, 5 par fours, and a par five (in a pear tree).
• Vary the width (within a hole and from hole to hole)
• Vary the length
• Vary the size and shape and slope of the greens
• Vary the size and shape and slope of the landing areas and the distance to and from the landing areas
• Vary the direction of the dogleg on par fours and fives
• Some holes have options; some don't
• Of course, the main thing is to start by varying the shape of the shots: right-to-left, left-to-right, straight, big sweeping RTL or LTR, hyzer flip/S...

When you're in the woods and working on your own land, you have almost complete control to create the type of fairway you want. It just takes a lot more work.

And don't let the flatness get to you; sometimes that's just the hand you're dealt, and I've encountered it before. Most of the front 9 of the WR Jackson course is pretty darn flat, and the course in Nantucket is just about the flattest course in the world, let alone the flattest woods course. Having flat terrain just means that you, as the designer, have to work harder to make the holes interesting (without being gimmicky).

And you may very well have the option to make a trade: two shorter holes in the hilly section for one longer hole in the flat section. Living in NC, there are plenty of courses you can look to for inspiration. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Thanks,
John

 

[goosefraba1]

Hey John and crew... I just wanted to show you guys the final design for Shawnee State Park (Blackbear DGC is the working name). It has been a long road, but I have had some very good guidance from Drew Zeigler and Adam Jones. This pic got compressed by facebook, but it is a decent representation. Some fairways (like the howdy-do point of 3/4/10/11 are actually farther apart from each other). Looking at a par 62 from long pad to long pin (blue level), we haven't gotten the shorts pads dialed in completely (red level). I will work on that more this week, and might have to adjust the pins just a bit accordingly. The Red lines on this map represent the long pad shot to long pin. The Green lines represent short pad to long pin. The blue dots represent some of the short pins thus far. I am sure that more of these are actually marked on the course.

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks for the update, Goose.

As always, I hesitate to comment based just on a topo, but I can say this: I know you've put a lot of head and heart into it, and I hope it exceeds your expectations for it.

 

[DougCrawford]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I foresee lots of time spent in the woods in the near future

 

[Jukeshoe]

• Vary the slope: uphill, downhill, sidehill, up then down, down then up, etc.
• Vary the par. Out of 10 holes, I'll typically do something like 4 par threes, 5 par fours, and a par five (in a pear tree).
• Vary the width (within a hole and from hole to hole)
• Vary the length
• Vary the size and shape and slope of the greens
• Vary the size and shape and slope of the landing areas and the distance to and from the landing areas
• Vary the direction of the dogleg on par fours and fives
• Some holes have options; some don't
• Of course, the main thing is to start by varying the shape of the shots: right-to-left, left-to-right, straight, big sweeping RTL or LTR, hyzer flip/S...

:thmbup:

 

[johnrhouck]

Thoughts you guys might be interested in a Frost Valley update. This is going to be an epic course: par 68 with huge elevation, great terrain features throughout, a beautiful creek, mountain views, mature trees throughout, and more. It is fairly rocky in spots, so I wanted to make sure that players who hit the landing areas had good footing. A couple weeks ago I worked with a very talented excavator operator to turn a rocky section into a nice flat landing area where good shots are properly and consistently rewarded. Hoping to have for a first tournament in October. Stay tuned.

 

[prerube]

There should be a special Disc Golfer Magazine where they compile all the Houck Articles into one magazine. Its so much easier than cutting them all out and putting them in a notebook.
I would pay double the cover price for it.

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks, Billy. You are indeed too kind.