Clarification on base of the target - 806.01 A (Putting Area)

[Cgkdisc]

I think I'm not understanding the proposed rule change or something.

How's that going to work on full runups for up shots? You would make a normal follow through illegal?

That, or you are just reiterating the existing rule that you have to be in contact with the lie when you release, because that would comprise "first contact".

I'm suggesting make the rule so your first contact after release is on your lie. You wouldn't have to be in contact with your lie at the time of release. That allows you to jump or step while throwing, without touching your lie until landing. You could even do a step back jump shot like basketball for some reason as long as you land on your lie and the first contact of any other contact points must also land behind the front edge of your lie. That prevents run-through throws where the player throws off the right foot, next step with left foot is on the lie, next step with right foot is in front of the lie, etc.

 

[Rastnav]

I'm suggesting make the rule so your first contact after release is on your lie. You wouldn't have to be in contact with your lie at the time of release. That allows you to jump or step while throwing, without touching your lie until landing. You could even do a step back jump shot like basketball for some reason as long as you land on your lie and the first contact of any other contact points must also land behind the front edge of your lie. That prevents run-through throws where the player throws off the right foot, next step with left foot is on the lie, next step with right foot is in front of the lie, etc.

Ok, but that doesn't prevent the kind of step putts I am talking about, the ones that are legal under the existing rules, correct?

If James Conrad can execute his normal, legal, step putt, but now can legally do it from 10 feet, I don't think people are actually going to like that as a result. The farther in you get to the basket, the more the few feet closer to the basket you get makes a difference.

Note, I'm not saying Conrad would do it, I'm just saying some people would, and I don't think that would go over well.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Ok, but that doesn't prevent the kind of step putts I am talking about, the ones that are legal under the existing rules, correct?

If James Conrad can execute his normal, legal, step putt, but now can legally do it from 10 feet, I don't think people are actually going to like that as a result. The farther in you get to the basket, the more the few feet closer to the basket you get makes a difference.

Note, I'm not saying Conrad would do it, I'm just saying some people would, and I don't think that would go over well.

Please read again what I'm suggesting. The step putters would have to land their first step after throwing on their lie behind their mark. Still allows stepping or jumping but not landing in front of their mark like they do now.

 

[BillFleming]

Rule proposal....

For baskets/objects that are free hanging (not touching the ground at any point), a marker must be placed on the ground beneath the basket/object to provide a consistent point of measurement for identifying distance from the basket/object. Marker should be placed where the basket/object support, if it existed, would touch the ground.

 

[BillFleming]

Please read again what I'm suggesting. The step putters would have to land their first step after throwing on their lie behind their mark. Still allows stepping or jumping but not landing in front of their mark like they do now.

But based on your wording, the step putter wouldn't need to have a point of support in the lie before releasing the disc.

have to land their first step after throwing on their lie behind their mark.

So they would have to start behind their lie (not marker, but the lie - 20cm x 30cm area), and after releasing the disc, their next step (first after throwing) would have to land behind their marker in the 20cm x 30cm area.

At least that's how I understand what you suggested.

 

[Cgkdisc]

But based on your wording, the step putter wouldn't need to have a point of support in the lie before releasing the disc. So they would have to start behind their lie (not marker, but the lie - 20cm x 30cm area), and after releasing the disc, their next step (first after throwing) would have to land behind their marker in the 20cm x 30cm area.
At least that's how I understand what you suggested.

That's correct although they could even start their motion with both feet in front of their lie, jump into the air backwards, release their throw while airborne and land on their lie behind their mark, i.e., a step back putt (not sure why but would be legal like the crane putt on the Demonstrating Balance video).

 

[sisyphus]

...I think that would also allow sideways straddle leaps to avoid obstacles!?

 

[Rastnav]

Please read again what I'm suggesting. The step putters would have to land their first step after throwing on their lie behind their mark. Still allows stepping or jumping but not landing in front of their mark like they do now.

Well, again, I said that one of the possibilities was that you were making the current standard run-up approach shot illegal. Not being able to place anything down past the lie would make the standard run up throw illegal. You seem to be emphasizing the idea of first contact, so perhaps you mean something else, but you also mentioned bowling, and you can't ever step over the line in bowling.

Do you intend that you can never make contact past the lie, anywhere? Basically extending the current rules that are in effect in the green to everywhere?

What about falling forward when executing a putt or pitch out under a low ceiling, as is currently legal outside the circle? Is this also illegal?

You are adding the idea of being able to have no supporting point at release, but what if you do have a supporting point at release? Does that point count as your first point of contact after release, and therefore it must be in the lie?

 

[Rastnav]

But based on your wording, the step putter wouldn't need to have a point of support in the lie before releasing the disc.



So they would have to start behind their lie (not marker, but the lie - 20cm x 30cm area), and after releasing the disc, their next step (first after throwing) would have to land behind their marker in the 20cm x 30cm area.

At least that's how I understand what you suggested.

I don't see how a step putters first point of contact isn't the foot they have on the ground at release. If not, standstill shots would be illegal.

 

[Rastnav]

I don't see how a step putters first point of contact isn't the foot they have on the ground at release. If not, standstill shots would be illegal.

Another example, your standard straddle putt would be illegal, as when you release you have your back foot up and it will obviously contact ground outside of your lie. So any rule that contemplates that a supporting point on the ground when you release isn't your first point of contact would seem to pose some problems.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Well, again, I said that one of the possibilities was that you were making the current standard run-up approach shot illegal. Not being able to place anything down past the lie would make the standard run up throw illegal. You seem to be emphasizing the idea of first contact, so perhaps you mean something else, but you also mentioned bowling, and you can't ever step over the line in bowling.

Do you intend that you can never make contact past the lie, anywhere? Basically extending the current rules that are in effect in the green to everywhere?

What about falling forward when executing a putt or pitch out under a low ceiling, as is currently legal outside the circle? Is this also illegal?

You are adding the idea of being able to have no supporting point at release, but what if you do have a supporting point at release? Does that point count as your first point of contact after release, and therefore it must be in the lie?

You could make contact with the playing surface in front of your lie with any parts of your body once they have first made contact with the playing surface behind your lie right after throw is released.

The pitch out under a low ceiling would be done so some part of your body touches the lie during/after the throw and no part first touches the playing surface beyond your lie. So if you're lunging, you do it from behind your lie so say your non-throwing hand touches the lie for support after throw is released and your throwing hand or other body parts do not touch the ground in front of your lie.

Sure. Say you're doing a straddle putt with one foot touching the lie. Presuming neither of your feet leave the ground during the throw, you would meet the criteria for contacting the lie after release and both contact points first contacted the ground behind your lie after release. You could then step forward. If you jumped from the straddle position, you would either have to jump straight up and back down with your feet roughly in the same positions as before jumping, or you could jump from a position behind the lie and make sure one of your feet landed on the lie and the other foot landed behind your mark.

 

[BillFleming]

I don't see how a step putters first point of contact isn't the foot they have on the ground at release. If not, standstill shots would be illegal.

Standstill shots are taken with a supporting point in the 20cm x 30cm lie. The suggestion for step putts is that the LAST step after releasing the disc must be in that box. For that to happen the supporting point at the time of the release would be outside the box - currently illegal.

 

[Rastnav]

You could make contact with the playing surface in front of your lie with any parts of your body once they have first made contact with the playing surface behind your lie right after throw is released.

The pitch out under a low ceiling would be done so some part of your body touches the lie during/after the throw and no part first touches the playing surface beyond your lie. So if you're lunging, you do it from behind your lie so say your non-throwing hand touches the lie for support after throw is released and your throwing hand or other body parts do not touch the ground in front of your lie.

Sure. Say you're doing a straddle putt with one foot touching the lie. Presuming neither of your feet leave the ground during the throw, you would meet the criteria for contacting the lie after release and both contact points first contacted the ground behind your lie after release. You could then step forward. If you jumped from the straddle position, you would either have to jump straight up and back down with your feet roughly in the same positions as before jumping, or you could jump from a position behind the lie and make sure one of your feet landed on the lie and the other foot landed behind your mark.

Ok.

None of this then makes a step putt, as we currently legally execute it, illegal, correct? When you step putt, you have a supporting point inside the lie at relase. Currently it's illegal to make contact past the lie inside the circle. Eliminating the circle just makes them legal everywhere.

I think I may have confused things by hyperbolically bringing up Michael Jordan. All I am saying is that the current step and jump putts that are legal outside the circle would be legal everywhere.

That means two things: 1) The ability to extend into the release that is part of a step (or jump) putt now constitutes a far more significant reduction in the distance of a putt. 2) The controversies over whether a particular putt was actually legal become even greater.

You could even literally fall toward the basket, arm outstretched, and dunk it as you fall to the ground. Wouldn't happen often, but definitely some times.

I don't think that's the outcome people are hoping for on this issue.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Ok.

None of this then makes a step putt, as we currently legally execute it, illegal, correct? When you step putt, you have a supporting point inside the lie at relase. Currently it's illegal to make contact past the lie inside the circle. Eliminating the circle just makes them legal everywhere.

I think I may have confused things by hyperbolically bringing up Michael Jordan. All I am saying is that the current step and jump putts that are legal outside the circle would be legal everywhere.

That means two things: 1) The ability to extend into the release that is part of a step (or jump) putt now constitutes a far more significant reduction in the distance of a putt. 2) The controversies over whether a particular putt was actually legal become even greater.

You could even literally fall toward the basket, arm outstretched, and dunk it as you fall to the ground. Wouldn't happen often, but definitely some times.

I don't think that's the outcome people are hoping for on this issue.

You're still missing the fact that step putts as done currently would not be legal UNLESS completed behind the mark with their first contact point touching the lie after release. Any step or jump putt would have to have one contact point land ON the lie after releasing the throw. This proposed rule change allows stepping and jumping but does not allow first contact to occur in front of the lie. I believe that's what people unhappy with the current step putt would like to see.

 

[Steve West]

Never take Chuck at face value. What's behind his proposal is that he wants to add running and jumping to disc golf to make it more "athletic" in an attempt to create more viewership. This is misguided.

If disc golf was more "athletic" I would never have started playing. Nor would many other people. The lack of running and jumping is what makes it so safe; and a lifetime sport.

Requiring players to wear beach volleyball-style uniforms (or WWE-like costumes) would also enhance the viewership at the expense of participation. But, sacrificing participation for viewership is folly.

The money in disc golf is - and will be for the foreseeable future - in selling plastic. Even the most successful video production companies and events need to sell plastic.

Increasing the number of players (plastic buyers) is better for disc golf than increasing viewership. Let's not serve up safety and inclusiveness on the alter of eyeballs. We can stick to the improvements that enhance BOTH viewership and participation.

One other aspect is that disc golf is self-officiated. Until the "we need refs because we're all immature crybabies" crowd gets their way (and thus ruins the sport) the rules need to be clearly understood and easily enforceable. The rule that Chuck is proposing obviously fails at least the first test.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Never take Chuck at face value. What's behind his proposal is that he wants to add running and jumping to disc golf to make it more "athletic" in an attempt to create more viewership. This is misguided.

If disc golf was more "athletic" I would never have started playing. Nor would many other people. The lack of running and jumping is what makes it so safe; and a lifetime sport.

Requiring players to wear beach volleyball-style uniforms (or WWE-like costumes) would also enhance the viewership at the expense of participation. But, sacrificing participation for viewership is folly.

The money in disc golf is - and will be for the foreseeable future - in selling plastic. Even the most successful video production companies and events need to sell plastic.

Increasing the number of players (plastic buyers) is better for disc golf than increasing viewership. Let's not serve up safety and inclusiveness on the alter of eyeballs. We can stick to the improvements that enhance BOTH viewership and participation.

One other aspect is that disc golf is self-officiated. Until the "we need refs because we're all immature crybabies" crowd gets their way (and thus ruins the sport) the rules need to be clearly understood and easily enforceable. The rule that Chuck is proposing obviously fails at least the first test.

While stepping and jumping are more athletic moves, players certainly wouldn't be required to do so any more than they are done today by more athletic players, some illegally, which is the source of this dialog. I could possibly be more competitive if I had a good forehand but it's still my choice not to develop it.

The reality is that the 10-meter circle is discriminatory for those who are less able/powerful to throw laser putts out to 10m and need to jump or step to generate enough controlled putting power. But they are not allowed to do so with the current stand and deliver putting stance required inside 10m. Anyone who has watched some women, older ams and kids at putting league can see this lack of stand and deliver putting power inside 10m.

Eliminating the 10m circle could be one step taken to resolve that. Requiring stepping and jumping behind your mark could be added to appease those who dislike the current process of landing in front of your lie after releasing your throw and not being able to tell whether you threw before or after making contact.

 

[txmxer]

I think it's clear now—Chuck is suggesting the step or jump ends at the lie. The player wouldn't be on the lie necessarily when they start their throw, but must contact the lie after release and before moving in front of the lie.

The balance requirement is also eliminated I assume.

 

[Rastnav]

All due respect, but this makes no sense to me. There is no difference between a step or jump putt and a falling putt or a follow through. You said following through and falling putts/recovery shots would still be legal. If so, so are step putts.

Write an actual rule that distinguishes between them. Especially take note that in a falling putt, the point of contact beyond the lie is usually a hand, which was in the air past the lie at relase.

And make sure that this rule also allows standstill shots with one point of contact at the lie, and with 0 or more additonal points of contact on the playing surface at time of release not on the lie.

Is the rule intended to be that a point of contact in the lie AT release does not count? Does this mean that in order to execute a stand still shot, you would, what, have to hop after release and then recontact the lie?

 

[Steve West]

While stepping and jumping are more athletic moves, players certainly wouldn't be required to do so any more than they are done today by more athletic players, some illegally, which is the source of this dialog. I could possibly be more competitive if I had a good forehand but it's still my choice not to develop it.

Not required, but there would be a perceived advantage so most would feel they need to. If you knew for certain that for at least one throw per hole a forehand would made a difference, you would probably feel compelled to learn it, too.

The reality is that the 10-meter circle is discriminatory for those who are less able/powerful to throw laser putts out to 10m and need to jump or step to generate enough controlled putting power. But they are not allowed to do so with the current stand and deliver putting stance required inside 10m. Anyone who has watched some women, older ams and kids at putting league can see this lack of stand and deliver putting power inside 10m.

Eliminating the 10m circle could be one step taken to resolve that. Requiring stepping and jumping behind your mark could be added to appease those who dislike the current process of landing in front of your lie after releasing your throw and not being able to tell whether you threw before or after making contact.

I agree about the 10m circle. When I first started, I thought it was the stupidest rule in disc golf. Still do.

Notice how the players who need to follow through still keep their foot on the lie after the throw, as they do for fairway drives or lay-ups. Just one step in front of the lie to stop them from falling forward is all they need. Most players do this already on most throws. It would be easy enough to comply with (and call) if it became the rule for all non-tee throws.

Instead of trading the question of "Did they touch the lie as they ran by?" for "Did they leave the lie too soon?" a better replacement would be to require the foot be on the lie at release, then allow a follow-through but require the foot on the lie to stay there until the player's forward momentum has stopped. (Anyone who thinks this is weird, stop reading and pantomime your normal fairway throw. You'll see you're doing it already. Or very close.) No need for split-second timing or guessing about where a foot was.

 

[Cgkdisc]

All due respect, but this makes no sense to me. There is no difference between a step or jump putt and a falling putt or a follow through. You said following through and falling putts/recovery shots would still be legal. If so, so are step putts.

Write an actual rule that distinguishes between them. Especially take note that in a falling putt, the point of contact beyond the lie is usually a hand, which was in the air past the lie at release.

And make sure that this rule also allows standstill shots with one point of contact at the lie, and with 0 or more additonal points of contact on the playing surface at time of release not on the lie.

Is the rule intended to be that a point of contact in the lie AT release does not count? Does this mean that in order to execute a stand still shot, you would, what, have to hop after release and then recontact the lie?

The proposal covers all of your concerns. If you have a point of contact on the lie at the time of release, it counts as being on the lie immediately after release. No need to jump. In a falling or lunging putt from your knees, no hand can touch the ground in front of the lie. At least one has to land on the lie after releasing the disc and the other has to touch the ground no closer to the hole if it touches the ground at all.

Here's a summary of the idea for every throw but tee shots: "After releasing their throw, a player's next contact points with the playing surface must occur farther from the target than their mark with at least one contacting the lie. A contact point on the lie at the time of release meets the requirement for contacting the lie after release."

The only "loophole" I can see would be a player crouching to do a single foot hop with their right foot starting on the lie. As they come up from their crouch, they release the throw before leaving the ground, hopping in the air with their right foot landing in front of the lie. Their left foot and any other body part if they fell would still have to first tap behind the mark. That contorted throw would be legal under the proposal, but the point is the disc would have been released while on the lie.