Clues about transferring all of your movement into the disc

[JR]

This topic came up a while ago. It involved an email exchange with Tomas Ekström giving advice on form. He mentioned that all motion should be transferred to the disc. The details of how remained hazy and we couldn't collectively come up with an answer that would have satisfied me.

Look at Marc Jarvis and Steve Rico in the videos in the link below. They don't move forward much at all after the hit. Notice how insanely fast Steve moves his torso and arm after the plant and how little his weight shift forwards. Marc is quite upright too and both of these guys turn quickly. Very. Jarvis brothers are known for being upright, throwing slowly and throwing far. Exceptionally far and one of them held the world distance record for 45 minutes before Christian Sandström threw farther in reportedly faster tail winds.

I suspect that Marc and Steve spin around quickly in part because their off arm is close to the body in part negating other body parts being a little off of the center of their body resulting in more mass than optimal being turned on too long arcs compared to an ice skater doing a pirouette being upright. Being upright with a little tilt to the left is probably still better for spinning, turning whatever term you wanna use for the player coming to face the target than tilting way forward at the hip which puts a lot more mass a lot farther off center. I haven't looked at closely but to me Steve is accelerating surprisingly early for a good snap when one thinks of form and timing but he sure is quick. Marc isn't so blindingly quick but he also is quite fast in the end and look how much momentum he has to be able to turn so far to the right in the follow through. I deduce that both of these guys have tremendous levels of snap. Not huge forward speed necessarily but Steve ain't bad at all in that respect.

Time to look at the videos more for more clues and after getting badly needed sleep I have to think of how to move the legs(look at the knees bend and move in several directions simultaneously twisting the hips and upper body parts) and how to harness all kinetic energy into the disc. I especially wanna know how they are able to turn so quickly. Legs I think but Steve has very quick shoulder turn too. Maybe the killer arm speed helps there?

I'd like to see your comments about these videos and maximizing transfer of energy into the disc and maximizing pivoting, turning, whatever of the player during the throw. How is all done and how does one train for it? I know about Bradley Walkers snap training but I think it might need some additional deeper analysis in the legs to shoulder department and how to make them work quickest and how to train for that and how to time things if there are some neato tricks in that in case I've messed up and missed some crucial things in that department.

I can't train too well now that the ground is suboptimal so your input, experiences and results of training are greatly appreciated.

home.comcast.net/~tpozzy/prodrives.htm

 

[rehder]

Search for Bradley's post on smash factor. It has some very good points on the topic at hand.

For the two throwers on Theo's page is that they both have VERY GOOD followthrough. And incidentally the last picture of each thrower is almost an exact duplicate. Look at their body position, they are identical

If there is one huge difference between the pros and us rec players, this is it. Again Bradley talks about it, in the thread mentioned above, and Blake has talked lots about it as well.

Most rec players (including myself) dont have the acceleration past the hit

 

[JR]

Search for Bradley's post on smash factor. It has some very good points on the topic at hand.

For the two throwers on Theo's page is that they both have VERY GOOD followthrough. And incidentally the last picture of each thrower is almost an exact duplicate. Look at their body position, they are identical

If there is one huge difference between the pros and us rec players, this is it. Again Bradley talks about it, in the thread mentioned above, and Blake has talked lots about it as well.

Most rec players (including myself) dont have the acceleration past the hit

Agreed. I have read about the smash factor. Good background info yes. But doesn't IIRC address the matter of utilizing the legs, hips and shoulders so that you don't fall forward without taking a step with your left leg after the hit. And still manage to transfer all your energy into the disc. Much info on this board involves timing and utilizing the upper parts of the body and the order of different body parts moving. I think there's something missing. Even though a lot has been written here about where and how different body parts move I don't think that this kind of leg and hip work has caught my eye in the discussions. This is something different that I remember having seen been discussed before.

Usually the advice here is to step through the throw with the left leg after the hit to relieve your body of stresses to avoid injury. These guys do pivot but they don't have a lot of kinetic energy left after the throw. I don't know how safe the pivots they are doing actually are to their legs. Right knee might see some stress here and Steve twists his right ankle so bad it's almost painful and certainly frightening to watch.

About the follow through, it does speak of high arm speeds at some point in the throw so that they can turn back so far. The natural assumption is that the highest speed occurs after the hit for the body tu turn so far. Indicating great snap from late acceleration and quick hip and shoulder turn. I differ in the amount of follow through between throws and how tired and stiff I am. After getting good rest I'm as far back as they are on good rips. I'm quite limber so that helps because there's not so much resistance to the motions. I can only imagine (trembling with fearhow much muscle power these guys have if they aren't as limber as I am but force their stiffer bodies to go that far by raw power alone.

 

[JR]

I looked at the videos of Barry, Marc and Steve with a clearer mind after sleeping. I found interesting stuff from all of them.

For the sake of this topic I'll limit commenting about Barry to say that he's very athletic to be able to pull off D with that kind of form. Not suitable for less than pro level athleticism. Very much maximized arm strenght in the linear part of the throw and ok but not tremendous looking lateral motion in finishing power. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't have good snap or great rate of spin on the disc. It just doesn't look top notch in my eyes.

Steve and Marc have similarities in how they use their legs. I confirmed what I had thought I noticed yesterday for the first time. Look at their left knees moving from before the x step(or in the case of Marc hybrid shuffle/x step in the year 2000!) lands to after the plant step has landed and the arm pull is in the first half of the throw.

Notice how the left knee bends down from being quite straight when the X or shuffle step lands? They then push linearly back to front towards the target so that their knee once again straightens or straightens a lot to almost straight. This push ends about when their plant step hits the ground. In one continuous motion their left leg changes from linear push to pivot starting the lateral motion of the snap.

Several things occur in rapid succession and partly coincidentally and automatically I suppose. They shouldn't be that conscious really because there's only two things you need to remember to do to my understanding. 1: Push hard with the left leg linearly. 2: Push with the left leg and more specifically the left toe and the right side of the ball of the foot to begin the pivot. The direction of this latter push like screwing in a screw. Down and clockwise. Everything else happens naturally due to momentum if I'm not missing pieces of the puzzle.

What Marc and Steve do is that once the left knee ends its range of motion in the linear push the pivot starts by dropping the left knee almost vertically to harness power from gravity. Into the immediatelly following down and clockwise push with the left toe and the right side of the ball of the left foot. You'd realy be hard pushed to guide every body part consciously simultaneously in this phase of the throw because a lot happens at the same time. Once or around that time that the left knee starts dropping down the plant step lands. Before the plant step lands the hips reach the farthest coiled back position along with the arm reaching the furthest reach back point. Lotsa plyometric loading of the side muscles here being explosively uncoiled with the pivot very soon.

When the plant step has landed the left knee is already falling down and the pivoting push of the left leg is on the way and shortly after the hips start to uncoil adding to the acceleration of the disc. Once the right leg lands in the plant step it also starts to pivot adding more power. You use the inside left side muscles of your right leg to add to the pivot from the legs. These guys push so hard in the pivoting push with the left leg that their left leg leaves the ground which may be a poor idea at least according to boxers who say that for the most powerful punch the legs need to stay on the ground to allow full force transfer to the victim. Disc in our case.

For exact timing look at the videos frame by frame for yourselves or this is gonna be an even longer post.

Note that Marc does something funky with his left arm. Notice how early he has his hand on the thigh. It's on his thigh before the knee drop starts. Is he pushing down with his arm to quicken the knee drop and adding power to the pivoting push? I don't know but I've heard it mentioned that some pros(no names I've seen mentioned so far) do bring their left arm from out to in during pivot to add power from a new source to the throw. Thus you could be very well adding both gravity and left arm to the power generating list. For many I suspect one or the other or both could very well be true. Have fun in trying these things out! I will :-D

For frame by frame analysis of Steve and Marc(I don't suggest Barry as a good example and for males Ruth doesn't have the power many of you have the potential for) I suggest Media Player Classic. Press arrow right to start frame by frame playback and each tap of that key moves the video forward one picture at a time. The videos ahve the same throw from two angles first ful speed then 5x slower. If you look at the slowed part several taps per one shift in the position of the player is required.

Because things happen so fast with the left knee and different legs planting, pivoting etc. it's near impossible to get the details of form and fine tuning of timing from a video of guys throwing this fast. That's why I can't recommend highly enough to look at these videos frame by frame.

Of course for comparison to yourself it is healthy to look at the horrific speeds their bodies, arms and discs are moving from normal playback. On that note with the disc technology of 2000 Barry as a mainly maximum linear speed and not maximum snapper gained 62 MPH on the throw in the video. Not so much considering he has been throwing at least 500' during his career in competition on the course. Poor throw or great snap?

Chris Max Voigt has thrown 126 KM/H this year. Huge difference. A quarter more speed. He also threw 207 m in the WFDF world distance throwing competition. NY probably doesn't have too high places so that's fairly close to the sea right? If so this might be the longest officially recorded throw near sea level. I just don't know.

 

[rehder]

Ok... a couple og general points first. I think you are overemphasizing specific details on some throwers.
It is really simple yet really hard to do.
(Obviously for the below applies that you dont have OAT or other throwing defects. Sound throwing mechanics also include having the disc pass really close by your chest and utilizing nosedown)

You have to use your legs to drive the hips to drive the torso to drive the shoulders....
This has to occur in a fashion where you accelerate the throw tremendously. If you compare the pro throws to the last two throws that where uploaded to this board you will see the difference. The pros still accelerate right at the rip, whereas the two others dont. The reach their topthrowing speed almost the minute they start the pull.

Bradley has talked about ways to increase snap in lots of different ways. And this is the central element. There is in my mind very little else to it. If you dont hold on to the disc as long as possible, while trying your very hardest to make sure that the back of your hand breaks the soundbarrier after you have released the disc. And again you want to make sure that your body assist you in that task.

but not tremendous looking lateral motion in finishing power

You are mistaken, Barry has very good finish power
Again if you compare his vid to the others posted on the forum, it will be very clear that his finishpower and acceleration is much better

Notice how the left knee bends down from being quite straight when the X or shuffle step lands? They then push linearly back to front towards the target so that their knee once again straightens or straightens a lot to almost straight. This push ends about when their plant step hits the ground. In one continuous motion their left leg changes from linear push to pivot starting the lateral motion of the snap.

The rear leg starts the rotation and throw, and the reason why it drops down is because they push hard with it. Try to do it yourself. Stand with you feet being parallel and push of with your leg. Now try to pivot the driving leg as they do and push again. You wil notice that you can push much harder. (Steve pic 3)

These guys push so hard in the pivoting push with the left leg that their left leg leaves the ground which may be a poor idea at least according to boxers who say that for the most powerful punch the legs need to stay on the ground to allow full force transfer to the victim. Disc in our case.

I dont believe this assumption to be correct. If you do not lift the left leg, you will be limiting your rotational speed, because your torso cant turn 360 degrees while your legs stay placed in the same spot :wink:
This also leads to the fact that if you do step through and you do it forward, instead of the motion like Feldberg has for instance you are robbing power from your throw.
I believe this is somewhat what Bradley was refering to, when trying to rip your disc to the right.

I don't know but I've heard it mentioned that some pros(no names I've seen mentioned so far) do bring their left arm from out to in during pivot to add power from a new source to the throw.

I dont believe this to be the case here. I would think the reason is to try to minimize the number of bodyparts that have to be accelerated. If you have your arm out flailing about it costs energy to do this, the closer you have it to your center of gravity the more energy you have for using on the throw.

Now there is an exception to this rule, and that would be most of the Skellefteå gang. Im sure they have an idea of why it helps them, Im just not aware of it, so I cant help explain it.
Linus demonstrating here
http://latitude64.se/mc/mirus1.mov

Chris Max Voigt has thrown 126 KM/H this year. Huge difference. A quarter more speed. He also threw 207 m in the WFDF world distance throwing competition. NY probably doesn't have too high places so that's fairly close to the sea right? If so this might be the longest officially recorded throw near sea level. I just don't know.

There is huge difference between the different pros. But for me the important thing is not how their throws are different, but what differs from their throws to my throw. And I belive that the above points are things that separate the pros from most of us <425 players

 

[JR]

You have a good concentrated background bulletin for newbs in your post. Nothing new to me there. Agreed on all points. Except the details bit. There are some really interesting differences from what I've seen comparing lesser skilled players against the videos of Marc and Steve. By no means Barry is a slouch. I didn't mean that at all. I meant that in my eyes his lateral swing of the arm and late acceleration doesn't look to be as killer as Källstörm, Marc and Steve. He's still a lot more powerful in his finishing power than most players. There's great and top notch. Barry is great the others mentioned top notch. In my eyes based on theses clips. Dunno how much better Barry is on his best throws and he might be doing some things I don't notice to equalize.

I noticed that pushing and pivoting with the left leg does indeed bend down the left knee automatically. Now I'm left wondering if a little sitting down in the stance to bend your knees a little extra and adding more plyometric loading from gravity and the momentum of the lowering stance would add to the power that can be uncoiled later from the legs? Sounds possible but I can't tell if it is helpful at least without trying it. Judging by the Brinster hop this is exactly what happens. And it is useful to me in adding some feet but it taxes energy and adds more uncertainty so it is for those to train that have nothing more important to check and the most D greedy

There's a clear difference in the pushing power of the left leg with the pivoting push. Favorable. Thanks for pointing it out. However; you don't need to lift your left leg off the ground necessarily. I still prefer not doing it until after the hit. First of all for normal form you don't need 360 degree torso rotation. Where did you get that from? I''m talkin about normal golf drives not 360 turn max D attempts that weren't shown in the videos. But even for those my coments apply. Secondly you don't really have the feet stuck in one place at all during the pivot. The feet stay in the same places in the ground but the toes do turn during the pivot towards the target and beyond to the right with enough finishing power.

If not you aren't coming to the x or shuffle step with enough momentum, don't push hard enough pivoting the legs or are so flat footed heavily stuck on the ground that the friction between the soles of your shoes and the ground cancels the pivoting of the feet. Or combinations of those things or something I've forgotten or don't know about.

My understanding is that Bradley meant that the disc needs to make the 90 degree transition in the L shape loking top down. That requires everything moving to the right from the toe up in the right time. Meaning leg pivot, hip turn, shoulder turn arm pull, elbow and wrist extension with acceleration past the hit and quickly.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure if I get it right what you are saying about Feldberg and how ,if I understood correctly, you meant that turning to face the target before the hit would rob power. Steve and Marc certainly have their chests pointing way left of the target. That is not what Blake recommends. For the sake of clarity I'm mostly facing left of the target at the hit. I'm trying to have my chest square at the target at the hit but it takes time to adjust.

Marc probably is doing just what you say but I was trying to minimize the length of my post while still giving enough ideas to spark an idea or a question. Reading between the lines... Still the fact that these videos don't show left hand psuhing down on the thigh doesn't mean that the mechanics aren't the same as with people taught by Tomas Ekström. The idea with holding the left arm straight up is to initially to have minimal deviation from the center of gravity in the first part of pivoting. And at the right time doing partially what I suggested with the dropping of the stance to load the legs plyometrically. Dropping of the arm actually does even more. It also is done in a swinging motion to the same direction that the whole body is turning to. So instead of being dead weight to be dragged around in the pivot it actually turns into a power generator that increases the pivot speed. Thus quickening the late acceleration rate and raising the maximum speed of the disc and adding more spin to the disc. Like someone said on a different matter: Very jedi :-D

Look for the link to the study that Theo Pozzy made in 2000 from which these videos are in the link in the thread Slow Arm Speed. There are the statistics that show that distance can vary hugely when related to the flight speed of the disc. Spin on the disc does wonders. I'd imagine that most of these guys in the study know the basics of flight shaping, nose down etc. basics of long distance throws. Since it was a distance competition there might have been winds and that may have had huge resulting distance swings in relation to the flight speed. There is 7 years of difference in disc technology to make discs faster in favor of Chris (really?, not in max D cases necessarily but that is another topic).

I think it is good to check the best parts of throws from the top pros to benchmark which things are common to everyone and who is the best in each individual aspect of form and try to pick the best of all worlds. And checking if unusual parts of form hold more advantages than troubles over popular methods. I'll be keeping my eyes open and checking for myself what works for me and what doesn't.

 

[rehder]

you misunderstood me about the 360 degrees part. my point was that your spine is limited in motion and cant spin 360 unless you move those feet :wink:

Regarding Feldberg, he has a vey quick pivot on his plant leg. In the clash for example and skylands he often doesnt even step over onto the push foot. He just sort of pushes of, and pivots and at the end of the throw his pus leg is just up in the air.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/davefeldberg.shtml

 

[JR]

you misunderstood me about the 360 degrees part. my point was that your spine is limited in motion and cant spin 360 unless you move those feet :wink:

Regarding Feldberg, he has a vey quick pivot on his plant leg. In the clash for example and skylands he often doesnt even step over onto the push foot. He just sort of pushes of, and pivots and at the end of the throw his pus leg is just up in the air.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/davefeldberg.shtml

Luckily the spine dosn't need to spin 360 Moving the feet once they touch the ground is also unnecessary. That is what pivoting means to me: Staying in one place but turning into a different direction. Just to make sure that everyone understands my semantics.

Because I had Skylands in my DVD drive it was a quick check. Yea Dave does lift his left leg way before the hit. Not good according to martial artists. Their reasoning for keeping the left leg on the ground is to my understanding(not a martial artist myself) that if you stand upright on your right leg with left leg up and punch something part of the energy goes into pushing you back and the rest into the target. Not very efficient. Having the left foot in the ground way back provides an unmoving support that stops the backward motion before it starts. Maybe the path of least resistance comes into play as well. If so most or all of the energy of a punch or a DG throw goes into the target or disc when the force doesn't partially dissipate by pushing you back. I'm not sure about the applicability of the path of least resistance in this case at all. Think of a portable anti tank rocket launcher vs cannon. Rockets move forward in the tube but the exhaust exits in the opposite direction. In a cannon only a part of the back blast is dampened by the recoil mechanism of the cannon and some force is kicking back the cannon but still there's a lot more energy in pushing the shell forwards. This is not ceteris paribus naturally because real cannons aren't portable. Although technically 12 gauge shotguns exceed the internationally agreed minimum limit diameter of a cannon allowing exploding ammo to be used in shotguns in war. Not usual but special forces have grenade ammo in shotguns. No anti recoil mechanisms in shotguns. When one compares the size and force of the explosive material in a shotguns shell used as a propellant against rocket fuel vs ammo size one sees that exhausting a lot of force in backward motion really does not push the object forward optimally. After all a rocket launcher wastes about half of the power from the rocket motor by pushing against air essentially wasting half of the motor power. Not so with the shotgun.

Another example of cannon efficiency. In WW2 British DeHavilland Mosquito was made mainly out of different woods. Model FB18 had a cannon that fires 6 pound shells designed for tank busting. Because the recoil from the cannon was too much for the wooden frame they had to simultanoeusly fire another equal dispersing lead shot(sounds like a shotgun) in the exact opposite direction to dampen the recoil to structurally sound levels. This demonstrates that even a tube closed in one end still does not transfer all of the energy forward. Without having real world data on quantity or efficiency I can only say that if a rocket fired from a tube(left leg up in DG) wastes half the energy (heard from somewhere not sure about accuracy of the statement) and a semi closed tube (left leg in the ground) kicks back both lose energy to try to push you back instead of moving things forward only. Left leg down should lose less and move more into the disc though.

 

[rehder]

Again the problem is that you can throw the punch forward while staying planted with both feet. Try making a throw with both feet planted, I guarantee you it will be short. (At least shorter, then if you pivot.)

 

[JR]

Again the problem is that you can throw the punch forward while staying planted with both feet. Try making a throw with both feet planted, I guarantee you it will be short. (At least shorter, then if you pivot.)

Of course I'm pivoting with both legs but the parts of the feet that touch the ground do pivot in one place. Only the orientation of the toes change. From left of the target to the right of the target after the hit. I putted today while really pushing with my left leg. Man I was tipping over and therefore throwing low :-( Good power yes but I'm not so sure that pushing forward and lifting the left leg before the hit is a key to long distance at least if you can get the nose down for equal heights with other methods without sacrificing D. I'll have to do a comparison to see what I can see.

It just isn't intuitive to me to raise the left leg form the ground before the hit. I have no trouble with it after the hit. If I raise the left leg pre hit I think I'm not adding everything I have to finishing power and spin on the disc because I'm not transferring all the power in the leg to the throw. I'm very wary of not fully utilizing so large muscles. But I'll give it a try when I can to make sure I know which way gives me best D. There's never a shortage of things to try is there?

 

[Bradley Walker]

Again the problem is that you can throw the punch forward while staying planted with both feet. Try making a throw with both feet planted, I guarantee you it will be short. (At least shorter, then if you pivot.)

You can "double pivot" like Markus Kollstrom.

He spins in the toe of the left foot and heel of the right foot simultaneously. This is close to what Brinster does also. This is one the most powerful pivots, but when I use it I am prone to slipping on wet tee boxes being that far into the front heel and weight back, my forward leg just wants to shoot forward.

 

[JR]

Again the problem is that you can throw the punch forward while staying planted with both feet. Try making a throw with both feet planted, I guarantee you it will be short. (At least shorter, then if you pivot.)

You can "double pivot" like Markus Kollstrom.

He spins in the toe of the left foot and heel of the right foot simultaneously. This is close to what Brinster does also. This is one the most powerful pivots, but when I use it I am prone to slipping on wet tee boxes being that far into the front heel and weight back, my forward leg just wants to shoot forward.

I've never heard the term double pivot but I've described it some times. I do it but I'm on the balls of feet with both legs. I need to try the heel pivot for the right leg at some time. It's just too slippery now for trying out something that you describe as being slip prone (my interpretation from your description). Is it slip prone compared to ball of foot pivot with the right leg?

Pray tell if this is one of the most powerful pivots what is the most powerful pivot? And what your definition of powerful pivot is? Is it energy expenditure and getting tired or is it fastest pivot and highest amount of spin on the disc? Or something else? Thanks.

 

[lmf1030]

I like leading with your hips into your release. That What I been Practicing.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Pray tell if this is one of the most powerful pivots what is the most powerful pivot? And what your definition of powerful pivot is? Is it energy expenditure and getting tired or is it fastest pivot and highest amount of spin on the disc? Or something else? Thanks.

Now that is a good question, but you already answered this on one of your other posts. The most powerful pivot is the one that lets the thrower keep a "center" around which they can rotate as quickly as possible. Some throwers use leg drive, some use trunk torque.

Markus uses both legs simultaneously (tons of leg drive), while Coda Hatfield drives his entire body onto the lead leg an rotates around while standing only on the lead leg (leg rive into trunk torque).

I cannot throw like Coda, I know that. I cannot move that far forward, as my lower back cannot take the strain. I throw much more centered, but have recently made efforts to get more forward.

As to the question, of which is the MOST powerful. I think it is thrower dependent, and a lot to do with the build of the thrower.

I still think one of the most simple pivots I have ever seen (and probably the easiest to copy) is Jason Bolstead. Nothing fancy, upright position, just a quick shuffle with a little heel pivot, straight pull, level snap, nice compact finish, and he f**kin bombs it.

Notice he is THROWING THE DISC FORWARD. You can say all you want about snap, torque, etc but you can do a lot with throwing the disc forward with as much forward force as possible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bmoaExn22rc

I am working on something as efficient as Jason. Simple, efficient and powerful. that is what you want. Simple and efficient.

 

[JR]

I've tried to get as much forward speed as possible until quite lately. Your method of practicing for more spin pushed my hiatus with twisting my hips and shoulder quicker into a slow training cycle. I've definitely gained a lot of distance by adding a run up and geting more muscle power and arm speed. I think that until I develop a lot more muscle power I'm not gonna get as much extra D from trying to throw forward faster. Holding onto the disc later is not gonna add linear speed but spin on the disc via added snap.

Regarding what kind of torque is the most powerful I intuite that using everything from as slow a start as possible in as short amount of time as possible to as high a speed as possible in linear direction and max. snap should yield best D. I translate this to leg pivot plus hip twist plus shoulder pull plus arm speed plus elbow chop plus wrist unbending to hand shaking position and a sudden stop for the wrist with a good pinch on the disc to make it pivot getween the thumb and the forefinger for maximum spin on the disc.

Pray tell if this is one of the most powerful pivots what is the most powerful pivot? And what your definition of powerful pivot is? Is it energy expenditure and getting tired or is it fastest pivot and highest amount of spin on the disc? Or something else? Thanks.

Now that is a good question, but you already answered this on one of your other posts. The most powerful pivot is the one that lets the thrower keep a "center" around which they can rotate as quickly as possible. Some throwers use leg drive, some use trunk torque.

Markus uses both legs simultaneously (tons of leg drive), while Coda Hatfield drives his entire body onto the lead leg an rotates around while standing only on the lead leg (leg rive into trunk torque).

I cannot throw like Coda, I know that. I cannot move that far forward, as my lower back cannot take the strain. I throw much more centered, but have recently made efforts to get more forward.

As to the question, of which is the MOST powerful. I think it is thrower dependent, and a lot to do with the build of the thrower.

I still think one of the most simple pivots I have ever seen (and probably the easiest to copy) is Jason Bolstead. Nothing fancy, upright position, just a quick shuffle with a little heel pivot, straight pull, level snap, nice compact finish, and he f**kin bombs it.

Notice he is THROWING THE DISC FORWARD. You can say all you want about snap, torque, etc but you can do a lot with throwing the disc forward with as much forward force as possible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bmoaExn22rc

I am working on something as efficient as Jason. Simple, efficient and powerful. that is what you want. Simple and efficient.