Finding the hit, then building the throw

[JR]

Busy so get the files from my post from today in:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=19031&p=325642#p325642

Enjoy.

 

[JR]

For reference the disc is 21,2 cm in diameter so you can approximate the speed of the throw and the spin rate. I think both throws filmed from below were from stand still throws. The guy throwing won the Euro Tour 2010 in masters division and placed third at the Big D 8 in masters division. If you look at the video where i'm filming from behind left and below picture by picture you can see the details of the disc exiting from the palm and pivoting around the thumb and index finger.

Good luck matching the sidearms from the European champion

 

[Beetard]

just wanted to update, not necessarily looking for advice

Really mixed up and probably saying and believing all kinds of incorrect things about grip right now and trying to figure out the moment of the disc leaving my hand, but it's so hard not to get distracted with other things.

Starting to understand that the follow through resulting from throws where power is generated at the hit (instead of way early) requires confidence and flexibility. By working slowly at increasing how hard I rip and follow through, I can increase both the the flexibility and confidence I need to not fuck myself up. A real throw is much more of a feat than crappy pull-early-then-coast-eek-280-out-of-a-distance-driver nonsense.

Locking up and pussing out is the body's reflex to abrupt stretches and changes in direction. For example, when you try to touch your toes, your hamstrings reflexively contract. They are all like, "Woah, we're not goin' there!" but they can be taught gradually to relax.

It seems to me the foot pivot is the proper response to the follow-through. It is to relieve the strain on the knee and is reflexive and instinctive. You really don't need to try to do it, it is part of the body's "not going there" response. If you follow through hard, your brain is going to make your leg do something to prevent wrenching your knee. If you don't put too much on a throw, the pivoting reflex isn't going to kick in and that is OK.

Foot pivot definitely happens after the disc has ripped. If you try to pivot before you have reason to do so, the disc is going to be released way right of where you were aiming and probably with poor power

 

[JoshEpoo]

Foot pivot definitely happens after the disc has ripped. If you try to pivot before you have reason to do so, the disc is going to be released way right of where you were aiming and probably with poor power

It's not as simple as that. Your foot pivot is directly tied to hip rotation. In a strong throw, your hips are what start the throw. The timing occurs in a very small window but, if you want to protect your knee, your foot pivot will happen basically in sync with your hip rotation. The catch is, the disc rips before your hips complete their rotation, so if you are light on your feet and have good timing, the disc will leave during the pivot.

This isn't something you really should focus on though, as it does occur naturally and will vary depending on how flexible your hips are.

 

[Star Shark]

In watching various pro vids, it seems their foot pivot occurs almost exactly at the hit. I suspect that my recent troubles comes from my current dg shoes... they're a little heavy and VERY grippy. Salomon Fastpacker II Mids. I think they're preventing me from getting a proper pivot.

 

[MasterP97]

The ice age finally ended and I got out in a field. I made good progress because I changed my concept of grip.

What I used do was just lock all of my fingers onto the rim and pull the disc tight against my palm. This allows no "levering of the disc"

Now I'm trying to grip it like it's an aerobie ring; like there is no rim -Just trying to hold the flight plate between my index and thumb. The points that touch if I were to hold a pencil like I was going to write with it, that is the workhorse of this grip- the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index right near the nail. This grip feels really uncomfortable and weak, but it lets the disc move in my hand the way I think it is supposed to.

It took me a few monthes to get it right, but I have ended up with a varient of Ken Climos stacked finger grip. It wasn't so much that his grip is the be all end all, though you can't argue his results, it was what you have described as finding the pivot in your grip. I think Climo explains it well when he says that you isolate the pivot point down to your thumb and index finger and take the chance of having four pivot points out of the equation by freeing up your other three fingers.

Here is the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAV8kKURKaw

That helps me open my eyes a little more in understanding the grip concept, thanks for the link.

 

[Monocacy]

. . . I suspect that my recent troubles comes from my current dg shoes... they're a little heavy and VERY grippy. Salomon Fastpacker II Mids. I think they're preventing me from getting a proper pivot.

I switched to tennis-style shoes for disc golf. Tennis shoes pivot more easily, reducing stress on my cartilage-deficient pivot knee. With knobby shoes, my pivot knee would ache for days after a round or three.

 

[Monocacy]

. . . Your foot pivot is directly tied to hip rotation. In a strong throw, your hips are what start the throw. The timing occurs in a very small window but, if you want to protect your knee, your foot pivot will happen basically in sync with your hip rotation. The catch is, the disc rips before your hips complete their rotation, so if you are light on your feet and have good timing, the disc will leave during the pivot.

This isn't something you really should focus on though, as it does occur naturally and will vary depending on how flexible your hips are.

Yes, I am just getting the hang of this and it has helped my throw considerably. For a long time, I had trouble getting my hips out of the way because I was concentrating on my footwork. When I started concentrating on the hip twist, the footwork took care of itself naturally.

Caveat: I am still in the "stuck at 300' club", so obviously I have more to learn. :roll:

 

[Banjar]

I am by no means a pro and I don't throw partcullar long either. But I have found the hit, and I figured I would share how I did it in this thread, so maybe someone else can confirm if this works for them.

what I do was a small wrist flex at the reachback. Reachback to max, the do a slight outward 'nudge' with your wrist. Initiate the pull when the disc starts to bounce back from the nudge. Because of the rebound of the disc, my arm and wrist end up in a nice position to feel the hit (the disc pushes heavily into my the palm of my hand, then it pulls hard on my fingers). Now I just have to work on everything else... This method helped me loosening up at the start of the throw and the timings of the pull feels very natural now (though they could be they are right or wrong).

This is me throwing in the video that can be seen in this thread: http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=21160

The two-three last throws (from 0:58 and onwards) are the best ones for illustrating my concept. It feels effortless to throw 250-300 feet like this. Just don't pay attention to anything else in my form ;-)

 

[MasterP97]

I'll have to check your video out later as youtube is blocked at my work :\ I'm interested in seeing what you're talking about in action.

 

[JoshEpoo]

He is just extending his wrist 10-20 degrees past neutral on his reach back, using it as way to get his forearm relaxed. It's an extra timing check at first, and it can help develop feel. I guess I'll note here that you (Banjar) are not getting the disc up to the power zone and your release point could stand to move forward another ~12+ inches, but you are getting some snap.

I've seen that type of thing discouraged on the site before because it can contribute to accuracy problems and you can achieve the same snap by just maintaining a relaxed forearm/wrist and extending to neutral. There are pros who do it though. You kind of let your arm "bounce" while it's fully extended. Once you start throwing harder it seems like it could be slightly dangerous. You completely give up control of your arm for a brief instant which seems like it could result in injury such as hyper extension or tendon damage if your timing gets off and you try to pull too hard too early.

 

[Banjar]

He is just extending his wrist 10-20 degrees past neutral on his reach back, using it as way to get his forearm relaxed. It's an extra timing check at first, and it can help develop feel.I guess I'll note here that you (Banjar) are not getting the disc up to the power zone and your release point could stand to move forward another ~12+ inches, but you are getting some snap.

I've seen that type of thing discouraged on the site before because it can contribute to accuracy problems and you can achieve the same snap by just maintaining a relaxed forearm/wrist and extending to neutral. There are pros who do it though. You kind of let your arm "bounce" while it's fully extended. Once you start throwing harder it seems like it could be slightly dangerous. You completely give up control of your arm for a brief instant which seems like it could result in injury such as hyper extension or tendon damage if your timing gets off and you try to pull too hard too early.

I agree with everything you say here - my throw is not exemplary in any way - but I've found the hit that was eluding me, so now I can start building the rest of a throw around it as this thread implies ;-)

I am not sure I agree that I 'extend' the wrist. too me it feels like a loose nudge or tap or something, like waving away a bug. As I pull the disc towards me the acceleration of my arm basically follows the weight shift in the disc as it swings inward, so my wrist stays relaxed. When the disc passes in front of me and I feel the disc pushing in the inside of my hand i try to straighten my wrist and hold on as hard as possible. Atleast I think I do, it is all conceptual in my head anyways.

The movement feels fluid and balanced in terms of power and acceleration. It is like casting a fishing lure. Right now my throw is like a heavy lure on a light rod, i have to do the acceleration slowly and gradually in order to get the best power transfer. Now I can start changing things, but I know what feeling I am going for in terms of timing, just like if I bought a new less flexible fishing rod. (sorry for sucky analogy).

 

[JoshEpoo]

In disc golf, wrist extension just refers to opening the angle between your forearm and hand past 180 degrees (neutral).

It sounds and looks like you are on the right track. You've got some snap going, which is great. Congrats on figuring some stuff out. Eventually, moving that release point out ahead of you farther will help you take full advantage of the natural levers built into the human body and generate more power with your hips and shoulders.