Flow problems or Outstanding holes?

[optidiscic]

Just looking for opinions on this....seems a lot of great courses with great holes have sacrificed course flow (and lost ratings on this site) to accomodate better holes. This might be crossing fairways like Paw Paw or Deleavega or it might be confusing long walks like the Little Lehigh Parkway or whispering falls....without these flow problems some great holes would not exist...just am curious what everyones thoughts on this topic are......course signage/maps seem to be a start but rarely makes up for criss crossing and the long walks. Personally I am leaning towards better holes less flow if forced to make a choice.....the courses are built for locals and usually they dont care about johnny road trip and his 3 disc rating on their 4.5 disc rated course.

 

[RHINESEL]

I don't mind walking a little ways within reason, but don't really care for crossing fairways. It's both a safety issue and an aggravation issue if you have to wait for another group to play on the crossing fairway.

 

[WillACarpenter]

I think it really depends on how big of a deal it is in either situation.

Sometimes they could have planned the earlier holes better, stretched them out a bit, in order to fit in a signature hole.

Sometimes things have just changed over the years.

I know one park where there's 1 fairway that overlaps...but I've never played there when somebody had to wait for me or I had to wait for somebody else. I could see how it would be a problem, but I can't say that it is...because it hasn't been ever.

Also is it a really good hole...but a really good hole just like the other 8 on the course? or is it totally different?

I guess what I'm saying is..I'd hope that the course doesn't sacrifice too much for one really awesome hole...but small sacrifices are just fine in the long run.

\/\/

 

[DavidSauls]

The degree to which crossing fairways are a problem depends, in part, on how heavily played the course is. On lightly-played courses, such as many private courses, it may never be an issue except for tournaments. It is also subject to where on the course the fairways cross; for example, if they each cross in the area 125-175' off each tee, you rarely have someone actually playing in the shared area, just walking through. All of which may be worthwhile if the holes are great enough, or if it's the best solution to a limited property problem.

Long walks are really subject to how long you're talking about, how easy or scenic the walks, and especially how many of them there are on a given course.

In general, I'd rather have better holes with these problems, than weaker holes without them. But it's all a matter of degree---how much better or weaker? How much extra walking?

 

[Mr Mirth]

Extra walking is no deal for me; I'm out there to "hike" and enjoy nature as much as golf.

The flow, I think, is quite important, no less than great holes. When I come upon something seemingly out of place, a disruption of flow or crossed fairway, only to realize a "great" hole (entirely subjective), I find myself distracted by surveying the land to figure out why, necessarily, is it this way and how might it have been done differently. Or, does it really add that much to the play?

I don't know, it's a tough call. Certainly I enjoy a "great" shot but I find myself always wanting more when the flow was so natural and fluid, that only at the end of the round I realize I just played 18.

 

[mashnut]

I have no issue with a little bit more walking to make the course better and more challenging, the only thing I expect to see when that is the case is signage so I don't have to go wandering around to find the next hole. As long as that is taken care of, I never complain about long walks within reason. Crossing fairways are a different story for me. I learned to play on a course where three (and depending on the pin placements, sometimes four) fairways share space near the end of the course. It can be a huge safety hazard, and really back up the course, so in general I don't like to see that.

 

[wolito]

Perhaps when designing new courses, a single outstanding hoel could be the focus and the rest of the course designed around it to incorporate it into a good course flow.

 

[Stevie Jo 22]

I really dont mind about an extra walk if the hole is worth it.

 

[ibgollie]

Flow should be one of the designers' top priorities in my opinion. If there are signature holes that need to be in the course then the rest of the course should be designed to accommodate those holes. Unless the course will never be played in a large tournament, played at max capacity, or by guests the course should have a smooth logical flow. It's important for safety as well as enjoyment of the round.

I think longer walks in between holes in a couple spots if necessary is fine as long as there are signs or something that indicates the next tee. I like it when I can stand on the tee and another tee box is not on my sightline for the hole. Such as directly to the side of the basket or directly beyond it. I think this produces a visually clean course.

 

[superberry]

I want outstanding holes, don't care about the walking. What I do hate are the long walks to yet another mediocre hole, while you just passed up a sharo ravine, dense woods, pond, or some other amazing and unique feature that more courses need!

I don't care for crossing fairways in any instance, even a lightly played course (unless it is my private course with something like multiple tees/routes to just a few baskets on a smaller chunk of land). I have passed up many holes due to crossing fairways and have very carefully considered multiple design options to eliminate them and still make the best use of the terrain I want to utilize.

 

[DAN E.]

Whitehall Deep 9 will have issues this winter unless there is alot of traffic. Awsome coarse. Bring your A game

 

[Lewis]

I don't mind long walks, but I'd worry about the dangers of crisscrossing holes. The former can be unavoidable for courses in public parks that have to be designed around walking paths or existing structures like ball fields, but the latter should be much easier to avoid. Either way, the better the signage, the more the course can get away with. I've yet to see a course where every tee box is visible and evident from the previous basket. Private courses, however, should be able to do a better job with this, on average, than courses on shared public land.

I do wonder, though, at what distance from basket-to-tee does the average player start to get frustrated. And you don't want to make them too close, or approach shots could threaten the next tee box. Sometimes the greatest danger is not from crisscrossing holes, but from adjacent fairways where one tee is just a little way to the left of the previous hole's basket.

 

[FernValleyDGC]

Flow should be one of the designers' top priorities in my opinion. If there are signature holes that need to be in the course then the rest of the course should be designed to accommodate those holes.

I agree.
I found one spot and wanted it to be a signature hole on my course. It is a bit hard to design the rest of a course to fit around a hole or two but it can be done.

For me one great hole does not a course make.

 

[Midnightbiker]

I have played a course where hole 15 and hole 18 had tees side by side on a hill, but I have never played crossing fairways. I can see where that could be a real hazard, especially to new players.

 

[zenbot]

I'm fine waiting a bit to play a great hole.

 

[tmahan]

I like great holes.

 

[Billipo]

no course is perfect. It is a matter of what the designer feels most important of all factors. I have two crossing fairways (provisions were made to insure safety) due to property shape that would get gigged on course design evaluations, the resulting holes experience far outweights any grumblings.

I'm OK with it so I don't give it another thought.

 

[Steve West]

no course is perfect. It is a matter of what the designer feels most important of all factors. I have two crossing fairways (provisions were made to insure safety) due to property shape that would get gigged on course design evaluations, the resulting holes experience far outweights any grumblings.

I'm OK with it so I don't give it another thought.

No, it's what the landowner/funding provider feels is most important.

 

[Three Putt]

Cris-crossing fairways are a big no-no for me. The only way a cris-crossing fairway can be successful is if the course is not heavily played, basically counting on the fact that you are NOT going to be successful and won't attract a lot of rounds. That seems pretty self-defeating to me. I see a lot of conflicts that course designers play off by saying "it won't be that big of a deal, it won't come up often" and basically admitting that they don't think very many people will be on the course. It's shortsighted and stupid.

Long walks are no big deal if they are marked. If you have a long walk with no way to help new players figure out where to go you help turn those people away, which is also shortsighted and stupid.

 

[zenbot]

I like great holes.

That's what she said.