Form Analysis and help needed

[sidewinder22]

Not sure what you mean.

Elbow forward and push.

 

[Flashblastx]

Ok I think the reason I was having such a hard time with the elbow was I was still rotating too much, old habits die hard. My arm was also in neutral the whole time, here I am really focusing on getting the arm internally rotated, noticed my disc angle out of the hand is so much flatter!

So I attempted to go to the other side of the spectrum. Get off the backside leg and get as much weight forward feeling like my left shoulder gets close to my right and focusing on battering ramming my right shoulder and elbow over my foot not behind it. Everything lateral to stop myself rotating when I shouldn't be. Obviously rotation happens but not because I'm consciously doing it.

Got better at swimming forward when I was still getting dragged deeper into my backswing but didn't get any of those on film, felt like the definition of patience leads to speed. The longer you can delay your body and relax into back swing from slingshotting forward the faster it goes. And the swim move just gets everything tighter together while your arm is dragging backwards like two opposing forces, noticed Ricky is throwing so far right now and I think a lot of it is coming from his patience in his backswing.

This felt like how Ricky and Conrad throw, felt pretty good and much easier to focus on getting on the front side.

 

[Flashblastx]

One more note to anyone reading these and is finding some helpful information from my struggles hahah

The arm. I have struggled with my arm collapsing pretty much my entire time during my form journey and the reason is how my shoulder was articulating. Even in that last video it's getting better focusing on internal rotation but the magic does seem to be indeed going external-internal-external like you have mentioned before in videos SW.

Had a huge breakthrough regarding this today and finally go the feeling of it, and it's quite powerful. The reciprocating dingle arm now makes sense and how gravity adds power to the pump phase and how you can add to this by pushing or uncorking your arm at the power pocket phase (right as internal rotation of the shoulder peaks).

My best description, correct me if I'm wrong SW.

It feels like swinging into the back swing I focus on my shoulder externally rotating, then at the peak of the backswing I plant, everything starts coming forward. While this happens I focus on internally rotating my shoulder. This brings the elbow up and out and lags the lower arm into good positioning (power pocket). Since you are naturally dropping into the throw with forward momentum the arm gets lagged into the navel/lower chest arm even though it feels like it's just free floating lower than that.

Now the arm wants to uncork from internal rotation and as it does you hammer that thing out, if you do this the forward pump makes a whole lot more sense in your run up, if you visualize that pump as hammering a nail (think Philo). You uncork out of the power pocket and hit the nail right where you set up during the pump. Boom, effortless power.

As you stated somewhere before SW, you can not collapse the arm if the shoulder is operating as a ball and socket joint (which it is). THIS IS HUGE. understanding this is so key. Maybe I'm just a moron who missed this point the whole time but if you're thinking the arm should be whipping around in a circular pattern (because that's the result you see) you will never get it. The arm articulates in a sort of circular pattern but that's about it. Articulate the shoulder and the positions will happen. This was so unnatural and confusing to me so I hope this helps someone.

Last point is if you see Antti throw (slow mo his run up as well) and his arm action doesn't make any sense to you, I guarantee you are rounding just like I was this whole time, much easier to do it correctly with way less effort. Thanks to SW again for posting footage of that guy really opened my eyes.

 

[Bush122]

Great write up. I've been going through the same thing recently and it's night-and-day with how much easier the distance is when you let the dingle arm work.

Question for the more anatomically minded amongst us: do you need to rotate the shoulder externally in the backswing? I'm thinking of the Drew Gibson @ EO2015 slow motion video - he starts internally rotated, keeps it internally rotated through the backswing, then explodes internal-external through the power pocket. I've always preferred this as the external-internal-external pattern feels really odd to me, but if it'll fix my arm issues in my swing I'll have to push through!

I could also completely be misunderstanding internal & external shoulder rotation. I barely made it through intro biology, anatomy would've ended me

 

[sidewinder22]

Question for the more anatomically minded amongst us: do you need to rotate the shoulder externally in the backswing? I'm thinking of the Drew Gibson @ EO2015 slow motion video - he starts internally rotated, keeps it internally rotated through the backswing, then explodes internal-external through the power pocket. I've always preferred this as the external-internal-external pattern feels really odd to me, but if it'll fix my arm issues in my swing I'll have to push through!

You can stay internally rotated in the backswing like GG, or you can go external to the top of the backswing like PP, or Antti.

 

[Flashblastx]

Great write up. I've been going through the same thing recently and it's night-and-day with how much easier the distance is when you let the dingle arm work.

Question for the more anatomically minded amongst us: do you need to rotate the shoulder externally in the backswing? I'm thinking of the Drew Gibson @ EO2015 slow motion video - he starts internally rotated, keeps it internally rotated through the backswing, then explodes internal-external through the power pocket. I've always preferred this as the external-internal-external pattern feels really odd to me, but if it'll fix my arm issues in my swing I'll have to push through!

I could also completely be misunderstanding internal & external shoulder rotation. I barely made it through intro biology, anatomy would've ended me

Like SW said I don't think it really matters as long as you're getting to the right place at the end!

I personally feel more comfortable staying into internal since that's the end goal for the "power pocket" but I think learning externally to internal to external helps train your arm into rotating correctly and not hinging.

To help understand the anatomy side of it.

Let your arms hang by your side. Rotate your shoulder till the top of your hand (knuckles) touches your outer thigh (lateral thigh), that's internal rotation.

Let your arms hang by your side. Rotate your shoulder until your palm is facing forward (anterior), that's external rotation.

That's also how you take a shoulder xray haha so that's a true internal and external view.

 

[Flashblastx]

Also thank you so much for all your help SW! I think I finally understand what's happening in the swing and can critique my own throws to fix old habits that creep in.

Got to throw in a field finally yesterday and was just smoking discs out there with zero effort. Throwing into a headwind/cross wind right to left I threw my destroyer probably 15 feet off the ground 511 feet just with a small hyzer flip and it landed skipping on the ground in hyzer. It's insane how different the disc flys. It honestly doesn't make complete sense but the physics just work haha. Plus my nose angle is so much better which is probably reducing drag a ton. I saw Joe Rovere throw in person before and that's how his discs looked flying. Low to the ground and just crushed and it looked so effortless. That's exactly how it felt yesterday.

You are the man. Just gotta stick with it and eventually it starts to all make sense!

Dan

 

[Flashblastx]

Just wanted to share the progress! So pumped, been figuring out how to stay more closed and get that Wiggins/GG type extension (soon). Elbow forward and internal rotation of the shoulder! Just get everything on the front side and ram down the door with posterior right shoulder elbow coming out of the door frame position, boom. Slingshot as a disc/arm/unit forward!



Also RIP bean bag, the speed of of my disc is now obliterating it haha

 

[RyanRehberg535]

Do you find that when you get the internal rotation of the shoulder correct that the rest of the body seems to articulate correctly around the arm? It almost seems like you can do everything else right and start balanced with a good backswing even, but if you externally rotate the humerus your entire body will "compensate" for it to make the disc go the direction you're trying to throw it.

 

[Flashblastx]

Do you find that when you get the internal rotation of the shoulder correct that the rest of the body seems to articulate correctly around the arm? It almost seems like you can do everything else right and start balanced with a good backswing even, but if you externally rotate the humerus your entire body will "compensate" for it to make the disc go the direction you're trying to throw it.

I am a little confused by the question, externally rotating in the backswing and your body compensates?

In a nutshell I think yes is the answer. If you're not getting a power pocket or disc anywhere near mid chest or right pec you pretty much never will with external or neutral rotation of the humerus it just isn't happening. Thus you are rounding (shoulder joint hinging) and the body is compensating to make up for it like you stated to try to get the disc to go where it should. When you start figuring it out it becomes so much easier to aim.

When you're rounding it's much harder to aim.

 

[RyanRehberg535]

I am a little confused by the question, externally rotating in the backswing and your body compensates?

In a nutshell I think yes is the answer. If you're not getting a power pocket or disc anywhere near mid chest or right pec you pretty much never will with external or neutral rotation of the humerus it just isn't happening. Thus you are rounding (shoulder joint hinging) and the body is compensating to make up for it like you stated to try to get the disc to go where it should. When you start figuring it out it becomes so much easier to aim.

When you're rounding it's much harder to aim.

So that's sort of what I'm getting at.

The way I think about it is that if you don't internally rotate in the forward swing (into the power pocket) your brain, being the supercomputer that it is, anticipates the external rotation before it happens and essentially "recalculates" the rest of the throwing motion (usually involves striding off line, off balance) to make the disc still come out in the desired direction. As SW says, once you start out of balance/sequence there are no corrections, only compensations.

Whereas contrarily, if your brain knows that you are going to internally rotate the humerus into the power pocket you will stay balanced, and the rest of your body is free to work correctly and just blast the disc out.

 

[Flashblastx]

So that's sort of what I'm getting at.

The way I think about it is that if you don't internally rotate in the forward swing (into the power pocket) your brain, being the supercomputer that it is, anticipates the external rotation before it happens and essentially "recalculates" the rest of the throwing motion (usually involves striding off line, off balance) to make the disc still come out in the desired direction. As SW says, once you start out of balance/sequence there are no corrections, only compensations.

Whereas contrarily, if your brain knows that you are going to internally rotate the humerus into the power pocket you will stay balanced, and the rest of your body is free to work correctly and just blast the disc out.

Oh ok I got you. I think I agree but I personally think most peoples biggest issues/compensations don't come from internally rotating but more from a lack of understanding the door frame drill/weight shift/and balance. I think once you fix those things then everything starts coming together and fixing things like rotation of the shoulder joint vs hinging the joint makes a lot more sense.

If the big concepts of the motion are understood then the tinier concepts start to fall in place more naturally in my opinion.

 

[Flashblastx]

Not sure what you mean.

Elbow forward and push.

Note how your are aimed and swinging shoulder to the right or outside-in. Marc is aimed and swinging shoulder inside-out to the left and disc follows into pocket behind shoulder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s

Been practicing again. I thought maybe I should go back and read this thread again to see what I could learn and I realized you literally noticed everything all wrong right away and I was constantly trying to make positions happen instead of understanding what is actually going on.

Things that never felt good to me were swinging like a pendulum with the disc, the inside swing drill, pushing the disc out, and the battering ram. Among others I'm sure.

I thought what if I swing my shoulders like a pendulum back and forth (my attempt on inside swing drill) and all the sudden I could feel the rhythm and why you pump the disc like a pendulum it felt good! Felt more like dancing and timing.

Pushing te disc out never made any sense to me, none at all. But I think it's because I was swing my arm as fast as I could which gave me crazy arm speed but I doubt it was all applied and I was losing leverage by levers opening early.

Also I could never get my elbow to do the right thing because I was swinging. My rear leg never ended n the right place and the swim move felt just odd but I could do it.

I was always concerned with my shoulders and not opening them without realizing how dumb that was since it's doesn't come in to play when you're pushing the disc out.

Still a work in progress and I would love any critique you have but this feels miles different that anything I was doing before. Both in weight shift thanks to the pendulum swing, I really sit in closed into the plant or at least it feels like it when I'm feeling the rhythm. Think I may have been rushing the throw a bit here possibly since I was so focused on elbow and pushing it out.

I was trying to focus on elbow forward and pushing it out. I notice my arm stops in the follow through I'm hoping this is because the energy is transferred to the disc. Also still have a problem getting the elbow superior probably due to how used to swinging my arm I am. If feels a lot more now to me like smashing my medial part of my hand into something by pushing it out into a smash, hammer fist.





Link seems to struggling: https://youtu.be/-SOssyAxCjY

I feel so close to getting this where I want. And excited to see how this flies outside.

 

[Flashblastx]

Think I finally figured out how the arm should swing and why external rotation of the arm in the backswing is necessary when pendulum swinging… will work more on this motor pattern. Feels exactly like swinging my arm now that I do it. Keep trying to force myself into positions. It seems I make the most breakthroughs when I'm feeling my body and flowing.

Thought I was swinging my arm but was really just compensating and making it more difficult.

Feels like battering Ram and twisted twirl star burst. I am liking it.

Will try to film.

Oh, also felt when swivel stars feels like, 100% was not doing that in last video. This also makes the chair accelerator drill and crush the can make sense, helps the weight shift and heel come booming down. It's not a powerful move rather a smooth move that generates power. All the drills are making sense man.. it's coming together. You just gotta be smooth and feel it not make up movements to compensate.

 

[Flashblastx]

Ok some progress,

First three slowmo throws felt pretty good but not quite as good as the last one in normal speed. I was really feeling it during that throwing session.

Nice to know I can get that feeling back, this feels like swing back inside posture SW! I think I have figured out that motion now it's just remembering to have patience to not mess up the kinetic sequence (the last throw I felt that). Think the first three were a bit rushed and was not leading the elbow. My shoulders felt a bit sore and I think that was preventing the good arm motion I felt on the last throw, the thumb push internal to external rotation through the hit. But excited to know I can find that feeling and when you do it feels amazing! And Heavy!

Any critique is welcome I'm pumped that I felt something and I knew immediately it was the feeling, like that's it.

If I rush the swing, I loose the rhythm but if I just wait for the pieces to unfold I feel it all uncorking from pumping the swing once I land on my plant foot. My elbow still looks like my previous swings so I think this is something I will have to work on but feels more natural with external rotation in the backswing to get it forward naturally but it does delay timing a bit at least for me.

I think we are getting there boys!

 

[Flashblastx]

Realized main difference between swing feels. If I don't get the elbow engaged, I tend to swing the arm in neutral, like I used to. Which causes more of a spinning of the shoulders old bad habit.

However, if I engage the elbow I feel the redirection and power or internal rotation/pounding of the hammer like I did in the last throw. It's like you're guiding the momentum into the correct place so that you can redirect that heavy feeling.

 

[Brychanus]

I'd get on top of that rounding issue and hugging yourself. The shoulder angle should be roughly at or greater than 90 degrees entering the release. Right now you're swinging your shoulder but not completely forward into the hit. I think you need to get used to bracing up your front leg and swinging forward into a hit or release point.

Seabas 22 Slash Thru



Shaolin Lumberjack




Lots more on this and related ideas. I found that literally hitting things with hammers was very helpful:

 

[Flashblastx]

Alright boys.

I am excited. I took your advice and realized you're right. Swinging or at least swinging my arm to me makes me do all sorts of weird things.

So. Decided to mix it up try something crazy the last few weeks and try a Barry Schultz (ish) type of throw and my god. It works. I have never been so accurate or consistent. I feel the heavy disc. The disc gets set up into a power pocket which I have never felt before. It's a power pocket to redirect the disc (push/use my entire body to accelerate it out away from me, swim it/rear leg kick/pushing into the ground with right foot) and boom it feels like lots of resistance/heavy. Then it just goes crushing out. All the "moves" listed should happen naturally when accelerating the disc away from your center, it just makes sense once you feel that. Feels like obliterating something in front of you slightly to the right of you if shoulders are directly facing the target.

Also why spin the shoulders? Makes no sense to "rotate" the shoulders fast or anything like that, completely counter productive. You need to set up into a strong position to catch and redirect the momentum. Wide, narrow, wide.

Threw an old dx gazelle over 400 feet just waltzing into my throw, no effort needed until in the pocket haha

But most importantly my throws have never, ever, been this accurate I love it. No matter the power I know where it's going and I love it. So fun.

I can feel messing around with timing and tightness of the power pocket depending on how wide I keep my arm so will play around with that but I am pumped.



Second throw is just a little bit rushed and arm did not stay as wide in backswing which didn't fully let the pocket develop like the first throw but getting the hang out it.

Also if anyone struggling is reading this please try to throw like Barry, a real eye opener on how the arm feels being redirected and makes a "wide rail" make sense.

 

[sidewinder22]

You look too far over your toes with spine extended/anterior pelvic tilt.

 

[Flashblastx]

You look too far over your toes with spine extended/anterior pelvic tilt.

I figured out why lately and it has been working well! Just from looking at my footwork!

I have been this entireeeeee time striding out to the left of the tee, exactly what I'm doing in that video. When I do this I am shifting from the front causing my discs to redirect "gridlocked", like you stated somewhere in this thread. No matter what I try to to do I can't get in the right positions till I fixed that.

So the double dragon technique in my mind is how to straight straight and reach correct positions. I strided straight, like really straight and boom disc feels super in front of me while swinging, my body is out of the way!!! If you take that step out your body will always be in the way. Also it created torque that pulls my back leg internally rotated like never before. Also, I can plant closed! Something which was so hard when striding in front of me, when striding sideways straight I have much more mobility!!!

Also all the positions look way better. Will get some updated footage put up soon but it looks so much better to me and the disc goes straight where I want it which is so much different for me instead of 15 degrees to the right.