Forming the whip by Overthrow Disc Golf

[Nick Carroll]

I look at the upper and lower body relationship as symbiotic. Even in a standstill throw, people are using more than their arm to throw the disc, and some people will step through as they follow through after the throw.

I don't think there's a spectrum, per se, of arm to body usage that people need to find what works for them. I think you need to use both, and they're additive, and it would be really hard to perform a good backhand throw only with the body - or only with the arm.

I'm not sure Josh or Mikey ever threw with no arm whatsoever, as Josh said in that video. But they probably minimized the use of the arm as much as possible.

Out-in-out has never been wrong, in my view. Even if you somehow paralyze the upper arm to 90 degrees, in relation to their shoulders, that forearm is still extending, curling, then extending.

So what Josh seems to imply is the level of horizontal abduction varies, and I think that's incontrovertible, but there's a range, and I don't think it's 0 degrees to 180. It seems to be a much more limited range than that.

I agree with him that you want no less than 90 degrees between the upper arm and shoulder, because you start to impinge when that is reduced, and that also contributes to rounding. Even some pros do this to some extent, and clearly some more than others, but when developing the "Good Swing" I think 90 degrees is the advised minimum.

So what's the upper limit? Well some great folks here have spent a lot of time on that, and at least from what I've observed here, the biggest outlier identified is Garrett Guthrie on some of his insane distance throws, which some images show about 165 degrees at the hit. How much of a spectrum is that? Not a full one, but a partial one at least. That's maximum extension though.

What most people seem to talk about with this angle is what is the minimum achieved during the swing, and then the maximum at the end of the swing. Garrett doesn't seem to get to 90 but he does horizontally abduct from the power pocket to the hit like everyone else.

 

[Sheep]

Lol this guy. Pretty much the embodiment of why people get stuck learning this swing.

"I did a thing and it made me throw really far! I was bombing!....for me".

Extrapolating acute personal gains into a notion that you are onto some secret is such a trap. Making videos about doing it is guaranteed to be a series of things you are going to be embarrassed about ever saying. This guy's fanbase must be pretty uniquely positioned to not catch on.

I can respect people who at least realize they were wrong about something. But it seems like being a 'youtube influencer' means you can't actually take the proper time to resolve this issue because you have to keep pumping out videos whether you know wtf you are talking about or not lol.

Basically what I've been saying for a long time now.
It's not a "josh is a bad person," Its "this is a youtube influencer job now." And they treat it like so.

But that is a miss told story as well. It really is just Josh recording his journey at learning disc golf, but teaching his journey as a professional coach like he has the experience of sidewinder while he's doing it.

"oh I learned a new thing like 15 mins ago, lets make a video." 2 weeks later. "okay, I guess that wasn't quite right, but I'm going to talk my way out of it, and my fans wont notice." Because its his fans thinking "oh he's just getting better at teaching" while anyone who engages in conversations like we have here should at this point be seeing what I'm saying above. Which is that he's teaching like his ability is far beyond his actual understanding.


It's like for my content. I really really need to make the grip/nose video. I could just half ass it and put it up.
I want it to be RIGHT when I post it even if its behind the curve. Why? Because I want to put up a quality video that doesn't confuse but helps people. I can probably do that now, but I could do it better.
I've been spending time testing it with students and friend who struggle with the issue and its working.

 

[Sheep]

I look at the upper and lower body relationship as symbiotic. Even in a standstill throw, people are using more than their arm to throw the disc, and some people will step through as they follow through after the throw.

I don't think there's a spectrum, per se, of arm to body usage that people need to find what works for them. I think you need to use both, and they're additive, and it would be really hard to perform a good backhand throw only with the body - or only with the arm.

I'm not sure Josh or Mikey ever threw with no arm whatsoever, as Josh said in that video. But they probably minimized the use of the arm as much as possible.

Out-in-out has never been wrong, in my view. Even if you somehow paralyze the upper arm to 90 degrees, in relation to their shoulders, that forearm is still extending, curling, then extending.

So what Josh seems to imply is the level of horizontal abduction varies, and I think that's incontrovertible, but there's a range, and I don't think it's 0 degrees to 180. It seems to be a much more limited range than that.

I agree with him that you want no less than 90 degrees between the upper arm and shoulder, because you start to impinge when that is reduced, and that also contributes to rounding. Even some pros do this to some extent, and clearly some more than others, but when developing the "Good Swing" I think 90 degrees is the advised minimum.

So what's the upper limit? Well some great folks here have spent a lot of time on that, and at least from what I've observed here, the biggest outlier identified is Garrett Guthrie on some of his insane distance throws, which some images show about 165 degrees at the hit. How much of a spectrum is that? Not a full one, but a partial one at least. That's maximum extension though.

What most people seem to talk about with this angle is what is the minimum achieved during the swing, and then the maximum at the end of the swing. Garrett doesn't seem to get to 90 but he does horizontally abduct from the power pocket to the hit like everyone else.

You hinted in there at something important.
It's important for people to find their level of engagement. All you can say as a coach is "you're not doing enough of this" but that doesn't' mean you're doing to much of another thing.
The backhand is far more complicated than anyone really wants to admit, but it's also incredibly simple at the same time.
We need to make sure to not overcomplicate it and focus on really important factors overall while teaching and such, then dive into the weeds when appropriate.
Key things are like that, Not collapsing the front shoulder. And stuff like out in out is great. And its a good visual.

You can literally lock your shoulder at 90, let the elbow be loose, get in a back swing position and just rotate and the disc will go 200-250 as long as you let your elbow flop and your shoulder not collapse. The natural motion will be out in out.
This is the most basic of basics on a disc golf throw without really getting all sorts of weird body things involved, or making it awkward. Just getting the arm to flop around like a proper lever without even "throwing" with the arm.

So if you wanna boil down swing basics, it's that, but we wanna drive it from the brace, vs just trying to twirl our body around.
When the motion is achieved, we add the zuuzh behind it and start learning to back up the natural motions by assisting them.

All the rest of the stuff we really get in the weeds lost on is for special situations, or really assisting someone in their overall movements more precisely.

I think it was in the other thread.
But everyone just wants a magic pill. They want "do this and gain 50 feet." It doesn't work that way. Especially when almost all the information out there is coaches constantly contradicting each other.
My gang of kids are all throwing 550+ and crushing courses. But I'm not allowed to sit at the table with the rest of the coaches because I dont' have a subscriber count or something?
I'm over it. it's sooo dumb at this point.

I keep participating in here because it helps me be a better coach if people disagree with me. I can learn cause people in here wanna learn.

And I don't necessarily wanna view these as bash threads, because were attacking the idea's, were not attacking the person. But it's just at this point been brought up that it's turning into more of a case of social media influencer, vs disc golf coach.
And.. It's been that way for a while.

"omg, he's doing so many things for the DG community"
Okay, what?
Playing with a free tech disc?
Whoa, like.. there are at least 10 of us in here who can actually get more and teach more out of a tech disc if it was gifted to us for free.

Ugh, I was trying to make a point there, and it turned into me just ranting.
Doh.

Didn't sleep well, have really bad heartburn.
I guess I wanna watch things burn right now at 445am.

 

[Tinkles]

The concept of wide rail being a necessity to facilitate creating space for a faster shoulder rotation focused throw is just talking about reaching out and rounding. He seems to be confusing two different topics. Rounding vs reaching out, and swedish vs bent elbow. Wiggins looks like a more swedish style thrower vs Paul as a classic bent elbow. I think both reach out as a universal good practice for all styles.

I think wide rail is an outdated concept where what really is happening is they are reaching out from their chest instead of back across their body which is the only way to do this correctly. I guess, I'd ask if wide rail is a thing, what is the alternative to wide rail? You either reach out or you round IMO.

Paul, if anything, he collapses the angle a bit but creates room and resists rounding by what he does with his shoulders. Paul squeezes his shoulders together in the downswing. This creates additional room for the disc and creates a resistance to the collapsing of the angle between your upper arm and chest more than if you were to do the opposite - squeeze your scapula together for example.

 

[Sheep]

The concept of wide rail being a necessity to facilitate creating space for a faster shoulder rotation focused throw is just talking about reaching out and rounding. He seems to be confusing two different topics. Rounding vs reaching out, and swedish vs bent elbow. Wiggins looks like a more swedish style thrower vs Paul as a classic bent elbow. I think both reach out as a universal good practice for all styles.

I think wide rail is an outdated concept where what really is happening is they are reaching out from their chest instead of back across their body which is the only way to do this correctly. I guess, I'd ask if wide rail is a thing, what is the alternative to wide rail? You either reach out or you round IMO.

Paul, if anything, he collapses the angle a bit but creates room and resists rounding by what he does with his shoulders. Paul squeezes his shoulders together in the downswing. This creates additional room for the disc and creates a resistance to the collapsing of the angle between your upper arm and chest more than if you were to do the opposite - squeeze your scapula together for example.

Okay, I'm not the only one that caught that a while back.
I commented on it, but nobody ever quite caught what I was saying.

You should never be teaching a newer golfer wide rail, ever. If you ask me anyways.
The basic mechanics of out in out, and getting the shoulders loaded and body coiled properly are FAR more important than worrying about wide rail to "create space."

The issue with "space" isn't cause you dont have the disc out wide enough, its cause you're shoulder and elbow have usually collapsed and you're not making sure to hold your form.

Wide rail is more likely to cause you to start short stroking your coil and driving the disc behind you, then turning yourself into a person who says "oh man i grip locked that" when it was never grip lock. It was you throwing like crap because you didn't have the basic fundamentals to throw wide rail, which require you to really really learn the "out" part of the Out In Out. Otherwise you'll yankadoodle the disc behind you.

Wide rail has its place as s technique. It does something different to how the disc flies, Why? I don't have any good answers. I just know I can put way more spin on a disc with wide rail than a normal swing.


Trying to take players and cram them in these boxes though is what is gonna be the downfall of the video's he makes. You cannot build and compare rec and average players to top elite pro's as your "baseline" and you cannot just make shit up that people need to fit inside of to help them throw.

There is correct positions we need to hit, but there isn't always a correct way for people to get to them, such as like you're saying where paul basically falls out of time then magically is in time again. It's not that he's doing anything wrong, because he isn't, he's just doing it in a way that his body can manage and he can repeat. The point is, he's hitting the key points. And coaching is about helping people achieve those key points with how their body works.
There is no cookie cutter swing unless you're starting someone from scratch at age 12 and can mold them like wet clay.

 

[sidewinder22]

You should never be teaching a newer golfer wide rail, ever. If you ask me anyways.
The basic mechanics of out in out, and getting the shoulders loaded and body coiled properly are FAR more important than worrying about wide rail to "create space."

What is the difference between wide rail and out-in-out?

 

[itlnstln]

What is the difference between wide rail and out-in-out?

Maybe phrasing. Out-in-out cues wide rail incidentally vs. specifically focusing on the arm position in the backswing. For myself, I focus on the out motion of the swing vs. the reach back. Executing that well naturally puts all the other parts in the right place. If I focus on the other stuff, I screw up the rest of the swing

 

[Tinkles]

Maybe phrasing. Out-in-out cues wide rail incidentally vs. specifically focusing on the arm position in the backswing. For myself, I focus on the out motion of the swing vs. the reach back. Executing that well naturally puts all the other parts in the right place. If I focus on the other stuff, I screw up the rest of the swing

Interesting, I think that focusing on the out is what the Beto drill is trying to instill. Working from the hit back is a good technique for everyone to try.

 

[itlnstln]

Interesting, I think that focusing on the out is what the Beto drill is trying to instill. Working from the hit back is a good technique for everyone to try.

Agreed. Additionally, I have an athletic background (baseball, primarily), so a lot of the "minutiae" of the other components of the swing simply get in my way, mentally, which is not the case for a lot of people.

I didn't really gravitate well to the Beto drill years ago. Sidewinder's "throwing the hammer" is what clicked for me. When I'm doing that well, I notice that my form is really solid (maybe not "perfect") but also doesn't look much like Sidewinder's, either (I don't swing back into the reach back, for example, and I also use a bent elbow)

 

[Sheep]

What is the difference between wide rail and out-in-out?

out from the body, into the body out from the body.

Backswing, pocket, push out.

 

[Sheep]

Interesting, I think that focusing on the out is what the Beto drill is trying to instill. Working from the hit back is a good technique for everyone to try.

correct.
Pushing out instead of trying to pull through and rounding.

 

[Sheep]

Agreed. Additionally, I have an athletic background (baseball, primarily), so a lot of the "minutiae" of the other components of the swing simply get in my way, mentally, which is not the case for a lot of people.

I didn't really gravitate well to the Beto drill years ago. Sidewinder's "throwing the hammer" is what clicked for me. When I'm doing that well, I notice that my form is really solid (maybe not "perfect") but also doesn't look much like Sidewinder's, either (I don't swing back into the reach back, for example, and I also use a bent elbow)

The hammer throw helps you feel the body wanting to pull your arm out, which to me is the que from it.
The beto drill is about teaching you to push out from the pocket. the hammer drill will help you FEEL that your arm needs to swing out, vs "pull through"

 

[itlnstln]

The hammer throw helps you feel the body wanting to pull your arm out, which to me is the que from it.
The beto drill is about teaching you to push out from the pocket. the hammer drill will help you FEEL that your arm needs to swing out, vs "pull through"

Just for my own clarity, you're suggesting that both methods are guiding people to the same or similar outcomes through different methods or cues, right?

FWIW, I personally think both methods have a "pull" feeling, but the swinging, or "pushing," out from the body is key in both. But that's just semantics and personal perspective. For me, the difference was I understood the inertia/momentum shift in the hammer vs. rote movement in the Beto drill.

Just a personal, OT rant aimed at no one in particular: I think what a lot of these technique videos don't focus enough on is what is happening right at the hit. IOW, what exactly does throwing a disc entail? Blake's "hammer pound" was starting to get at that, but I don't think anyone really got further than that. My wife is really into DG now, and that's her biggest pet peeve. There are endless videos about feet, arms, hips, etc., but what is happening with the disc and the hand? What is the hit?

 

[timothy42b]

You should never be teaching a newer golfer wide rail, ever. If you ask me anyways.
The basic mechanics of out in out, and getting the shoulders loaded and body coiled properly are FAR more important than worrying about wide rail to "create space."

Is throwing with a straight arm same as wide rail, basically?

 

[Sheep]

Is throwing with a straight arm same as wide rail, basically?

Is the struggle on this conversation what a wide rail is vs a standard backswing?

 

[timothy42b]

Is the struggle on this conversation what a wide rail is vs a standard backswing?

I have no idea. I wasn't trying to be a smart aleck, I really don't understand. Spin Doctor talks about swinging straight arm in order to be reaching farther out at release, not to "get space" in front of chest; sidewinder had a thread about straight arm swing fairly recently. . The straight line pull guys like the recent 500 foot standstill thread don't seem to consider it. Wide arc at release should be more velocity, but wide rail is prior to release, right?

A few years back I had a bad right shoulder impingement, couldn't reach my wallet or use the turn signal in my car (it's Virginia, that's optional so no big deal). I threw left handed and just kept the left arm loose and straight like a golf club. There wasn't much control but it worked.

 

[Sheep]

I have no idea. I wasn't trying to be a smart aleck, I really don't understand. Spin Doctor talks about swinging straight arm in order to be reaching farther out at release, not to "get space" in front of chest; sidewinder had a thread about straight arm swing fairly recently. . The straight line pull guys like the recent 500 foot standstill thread don't seem to consider it. Wide arc at release should be more velocity, but wide rail is prior to release, right?

A few years back I had a bad right shoulder impingement, couldn't reach my wallet or use the turn signal in my car (it's Virginia, that's optional so no big deal). I threw left handed and just kept the left arm loose and straight like a golf club. There wasn't much control but it worked.

It's hard to tell sometimes. People get mad at me for typing to much, but its to try and prevent misunderstanding.


Wide rail vs standard.
It's the backswing position of your arm before you start the downswing.

Standard. sorta in line with the target.
Wide rail, out away from the line.

We want to be on the line or wide of the line of the throw. We don't necessarily want to be inside the line of the throw, cause that closes things off and causes rounding.


A standard backswing is easy as it helps you focus on getting the shoulders into the swing properly and the natural things of what needs to happen can actually happen with little to no effort and get the disc out on target line.

When you throw wide rail, mechanics are not as "automatic" and you'll end up doing really bad things unintentionally.
So if you dont have good control fundamentals on a wide rail, what you'll actually do is setup for a wide rail shot, and throw the disc like you're throwing a standard shot, ala, Behind you.
And then scream something like "grip lock" or something.

The other issue with wide rail and teaching it is that its really easy to not fully load and rotate the shoulders on a wide rail.

Oakley has the most obvious wide rail of all the pro tour players. His form looks weird, but its just a really pronounced wide rail. He reaches back and out and gets his shoulders fully turned.

ahh. I think I finally see why people say "reach back." You have to actually do some "reaching" if of sorts with wide rail, because its not a standard swing back and swing forwards.


So yeah, wide rail issues. People will end up pulling the disc and over rotating throwing behind their target line, .. so basically in line with where they reached their arm out to.
Or they will short stroke the shoulders, so they will make it appear like a wide rail, but their shoulders are at 90, and they then of course throw it where they have set the disc up to go.

You have to more actively force the disc "out" from the pocket with a wide rail or you'll yank it behind you.

 

[Brychanus]

Just a personal, OT rant aimed at no one in particular: I think what a lot of these technique videos don't focus enough on is what is happening right at the hit. IOW, what exactly does throwing a disc entail? Blake's "hammer pound" was starting to get at that, but I don't think anyone really got further than that. My wife is really into DG now, and that's her biggest pet peeve. There are endless videos about feet, arms, hips, etc., but what is happening with the disc and the hand? What is the hit?

Just an observation when also working with living, breathing people in the real world, I think people access it in various ways.

Some baseball players get it like throwing a ball but in the backhand direction, or swinging a bat in a backhand direction and throwing the bat. Baseball players are interesting because they often get a lot of things naturally, but connecting it with throwing in the BH direction or making the connection between swinging a bat and throwing a disc is often a challenge. Part of the problem there is postural adjustments.

Some people get it swinging a racket or throwing the racket.

Swinging or throwing a club.

Shifting against a door frame and letting the arm come through.

Seabas22 slash thru or Shaolin.

You want the similar principle to apply to the disc. Problem for a lot of people is they were trying to manipulate too much near the end of the action and made the disc this special problem with all kinds of interfering muscle memory, when instead you want it to function like other throwing motions. Some people improve faster focusing on the end of the action, others need to spend more time on what precedes the action.

I didn't get it until I hit a heavy bag with a hammer and connected it to my martial arts training. Throwing it is a slightly different problem but it was close enough to help me understand what was supposed to be going on.

You get more speed when you get enough of the chain to connect and accelerate more, shift and commit through the release point more abruptly/athletically, add more momentum or juice to the chain, move in better sequence and rhythm and posture, etc.

 

[Sheep]

Problem for a lot of people is they were trying to manipulate too much near the end of the action and made the disc this special problem with all kinds of interfering muscle memory, when instead you want it to function like other throwing motions. Some people improve faster focusing on the end of the action, others need to spend more time on what precedes the action.


You get more speed when you get enough of the chain to connect and accelerate more, shift and commit through the release point more abruptly/athletically, add more momentum or juice to the chain, move in better sequence and rhythm and posture, etc.

You hit on something important there that I've even forgot to focus on in my swing lately.

"commit *through* the release point"
"focus on the end of the action"

Well, what is the "end" of the action.
Well, its the follow through, it's not the disc leaving the hand.


Focus your energy through the hit, not to the hit.

That's why follow throughs are so important other than to save your body from going kaputz.

And I've seen people improve by telling them to focus through. And come to think of it, I've not been doing it myself.

The actual flight check list for throwing discs is ... annoyingly long despite it being so simple.

 

[sidewinder22]

It's hard to tell sometimes. People get mad at me for typing to much, but its to try and prevent misunderstanding.


Wide rail vs standard.
It's the backswing position of your arm before you start the downswing.

Standard. sorta in line with the target.
Wide rail, out away from the line.

We want to be on the line or wide of the line of the throw. We don't necessarily want to be inside the line of the throw, cause that closes things off and causes rounding.


A standard backswing is easy as it helps you focus on getting the shoulders into the swing properly and the natural things of what needs to happen can actually happen with little to no effort and get the disc out on target line.

When you throw wide rail, mechanics are not as "automatic" and you'll end up doing really bad things unintentionally.
So if you dont have good control fundamentals on a wide rail, what you'll actually do is setup for a wide rail shot, and throw the disc like you're throwing a standard shot, ala, Behind you.
And then scream something like "grip lock" or something.

The other issue with wide rail and teaching it is that its really easy to not fully load and rotate the shoulders on a wide rail.

Oakley has the most obvious wide rail of all the pro tour players. His form looks weird, but its just a really pronounced wide rail. He reaches back and out and gets his shoulders fully turned.

ahh. I think I finally see why people say "reach back." You have to actually do some "reaching" if of sorts with wide rail, because its not a standard swing back and swing forwards.


So yeah, wide rail issues. People will end up pulling the disc and over rotating throwing behind their target line, .. so basically in line with where they reached their arm out to.
Or they will short stroke the shoulders, so they will make it appear like a wide rail, but their shoulders are at 90, and they then of course throw it where they have set the disc up to go.

You have to more actively force the disc "out" from the pocket with a wide rail or you'll yank it behind you.

I think you are describing what I often refer to as a fake wide rail, where they never redirect from power pocket back out wide, so they throw outside-in and saw off the arc, instead of (out/wide) inside-out wide.