Game Design for discs, courses

[teemkey]

Develop those myelin sheaths on the other side of your brain -- throw with your off hand.

Carry a pair of dice & 12 discs.

Carry one die: backhand, forehand, tommy, thumber, roller, scoobie/grenade

All of the above.

 

[Brodysseus]

I like turtles.

This absolutely got me laughing. Fantastic. Bravo sir.

 

[Lewis]

Develop those myelin sheaths on the other side of your brain -- throw with your off hand.

Carry a pair of dice & 12 discs.

Carry one die: backhand, forehand, tommy, thumber, roller, scoobie/grenade

All of the above.

A pair of dice will never roll a 1, and the distribution of possible rolls is not even. For example, there are more ways to roll a 7 than there are to roll a 2 or a 12; however, he could use a 12-sided die and get even odds from 1-12.

Jessy, if you're a gamer and an app developer, why not try your hand at creating a full-featured disc golf simulator? I bet there's a more enthusiastic market for that than there is for an app to randomly shuffle and pick a photo from an album on your phone, which to me is what your idea to digitize a RIPT deck boils down to. There are folks who are already working on a disc golf simulation app -- see "disc golf unchained flight lab" by "Local Route Labs" in the App Store. You might find a fun challenge for yourself by developing something like that. I also like jeverett's suggestion to take an interest in course design.

 

[teemkey]

A pair of dice will never roll a 1, and the distribution of possible rolls is not even. For example, there are more ways to roll a 7 than there are to roll a 2 or a 12; however, he could use a 12-sided die and get even odds from 1-12.

True on the inability to throw a 1, so 11 discs would work. However, I see no compelling reason for a flat distribution ... but he probably wants a random number generator anyway -- dice are so cumbersome ya know.

 

[Lewis]

True on the inability to throw a 1, so 11 discs would work. However, I see no compelling reason for a flat distribution ... but he probably wants a random number generator anyway -- dice are so cumbersome ya know.

Good point. There are plenty of dice rolling apps in the App Store that show images of little rolling dice and then give you a number. You could also just go to a random number generator website with Safari.

 

[DiscLoser1]

Wow.

Beer seems to help people relax and have fun around these parts.

 

[Dave242]

I think that taking off these cheat codes would make the game much more interesting. I just had this epiphany this morning, but my initial thoughts went something like:

• Take away the ability to use all discs from the start; come up with something that unlocks the ability to use more discs
• Unlock the ability to use your dominant hand, or be forced to use it as a punishment for I-don't-know-what-yet
• Before landing in the basket, force discs to land within larger areas than a basket, that are to as far as it, and score appropriately (got this idea from rock climbing routes + darts)

I ran a league that was low entry ($3 + $1 for ace pool), but that came with the ability to use only 3 discs. For $1 per disc you could add as many discs as you wanted....and that went to a CTP pool. So, ca$h unlocked more discs.

I have proposed (to the guffaws of the majority) forced fairway routing through fairway "wickets" or gateways or portals. Other than the ubiquitous "but its never been done that way before" argument, I do not recall any other show stoppers to implementing this sort of thing.

 

[cmcolomb]

^^ i like the $3 disc rule and $1 buy in - neat!

 

[hook_nuts]

Rng in disc golf sounds horrible. I just can't imagine being able to keep it balanced. Also it'd take some if not all of the decision making out of the game. Doesn't make sense to me, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

 

[jrawk]

Tho I have never played RIPT and probably won't because I don't like 'randomness' in general, I don't think that fulfills the concept Jessy is outlining.

I think most people are missing the progression aspect of his three bullet points in post #1. Almost every video game these days has an element of leveling-up, where the player starts at a basic level and acquires more abilities to use as the game progresses. In disc golf, we always start hole 1 with everything we need.

Jessy's idea is much more appealing to me than playing RIPT. I could potentially be starting out with a very limited bag setup, playing easy hole configurations and by hole 10 have earned extra discs to use on more advanced hole configurations, etc. I fear that applying those concepts to a rule set that can be played at any one of our 6000 courses will prove to be difficult.

 

[hook_nuts]

I think most people are missing the progression aspect of his three bullet points in post #1. Almost every video game these days has an element of leveling-up, where the player starts at a basic level and acquires more abilities to use as the game progresses.

I like thinking outside of the box, but dg isn't a video game although the progression aspect is already there imo. When you start playing dg you lack knowledge, techniques, equipment, etc. As you grind and acquire these things you are "leveling up". When you become "max level" (have the knowledge, techniques, equipment, etc.) then you are on a fair playing field and need to perfect your skill sets to win. Even at "max level" you can still learn strategies to try to get an advantage. Expansions are new courses, new discs, etc. Now go pwn!

 

[jeverett]

I think most people are missing the progression aspect of his three bullet points in post #1. Almost every video game these days has an element of leveling-up, where the player starts at a basic level and acquires more abilities to use as the game progresses. In disc golf, we always start hole 1 with everything we need.

While I can appreciate the gamification aspects of (typically video-game) progression systems, I think it's also important to remember why they were created: to give players the feeling that they're making progress, even when in real-world terms, they're not particularly. i.e. it's about the discrepancy between how quickly a person *actually* improves at a particular skill or activity, and how quickly they *want* to improve at it. Video games are very good at using progression systems to give the player the feeling that they're improving at a faster rate. Honestly, when it comes to sports activities, disc golf actually is a pretty controllable (i.e. easy to learn and get better at) game. New players generally get better quite quickly, thanks to the (initially) relatively small number of techniques necessary to level out a disc's flight and generally aim a throw.

So I definitely wouldn't agree that [new players] "start with everything they need at hole 1", and I think disc golf does a pretty good job already at giving players the feeling of making rapid progress, but I would concede that, like many physical activities, there are definitely plateaus, places where, for a variety of reasons, players essentially stop improving (for at least a while). These are where I think the concept of video game progression systems make the most sense to look at, although again I suspect that with better course design, and requiring the player to learn a greater diversity of skills, we could definitely do a better of job of keeping players from feeling like they've plateau'd without resorting to 'unlockables' or RNG mechanics. i.e. if the one skill that a course is teaching a player is a natural hyzer, they're likely to learn that skill and plateau at it fairly quickly. But if we design courses to test lots of different skills (together and separately), the disconnect between a players' actual skill progress and their desired skill progress could be a lot smaller.

 

[Dave242]

Jessy's idea is much more appealing to me than playing RIPT. I could potentially be starting out with a very limited bag setup, playing easy hole configurations and by hole 10 have earned extra discs to use on more advanced hole configurations, etc. I fear that applying those concepts to a rule set that can be played at any one of our 6000 courses will prove to be difficult.

For practice rounds, this would be a cool game.....depending on the course I would think. Start with just using a putter. Get a birdie, earn a midrange. Get another birdie get another disc of your choice (driver?). Get a bogey, lose the last disc you earned. This would be a great way to force a player to learn/hone fundamentals with slower speed discs.

If you are talking about competition, I am thinking your idea is a bad idea....its a "the rich get richer" setup. Maybe the reverse could be done in a way to handicap. Something like, if you birdie a hole, you must drive the next hole with a putter.

 

[Basshunter]

You aren't having enough fun or finding disc golf challenging enough? I'll give you some options:

1. Go back to your bedroom and play games on your gaming system/computer where living in the real world isn't necessary.

2. Find a course with something equivalent to Maple Hill Golds and get humbled.

3. Take up extreme masturbation.

If everything in your life has to be like a video game, you're missing the point of living.

My $0.02 as an old fart who loves technology and doesn't think it needs to invade every facet of life. Disc golf is fun because it is me and a disc against the course, I don't need it to be any more. It is by its very nature a meditative and mentally and physically challenging endeavor. If you need it to provide more than that, you need to re-examine your life priorities.

 

[hook_nuts]

You aren't having enough fun or finding disc golf challenging enough? I'll give you some options:

1. Go back to your bedroom and play games on your gaming system/computer where living in the real world isn't necessary.

2. Find a course with something equivalent to Maple Hill Golds and get humbled.

3. Take up extreme masturbation.

If everything in your life has to be like a video game, you're missing the point of living.

My $0.02 as an old fart who loves technology and doesn't think it needs to invade every facet of life. Disc golf is fun because it is me and a disc against the course, I don't need it to be any more. It is by its very nature a meditative and mentally and physically challenging endeavor. If you need it to provide more than that, you need to re-examine your life priorities.

Because someone is different than you they should re-examine their priorities? Get over yourself.

 

[Basshunter]

Because someone is different than you they should re-examine their priorities? Get over yourself.

Re-read my post. That's not what I said at all.

EDIT: And be sure to read it relative to the OP, not as an unqualified statement

 

[Jessy]

Was any of that useful? I'd be happy to chat more, too, if you'd like.

Definitely. You seem to have a great handle on a lot of concepts that interest me. What I recommend, is a Quip folder, where interested parties can get ideas out, and organized. Are you involved in something like that, already? I might be too much of a noob, to yield that much course design insight, but I'd like to watch others work, so I can learn faster.

Jessy, if you're a gamer and an app developer, why not try your hand at creating a full-featured disc golf simulator?...
..."disc golf unchained flight lab" by "Local Route Labs" in the App Store.

It looks like they're doing a good job already, no?

(I also think that the game, Sports Champions, had a disc golf mode that an indie developer would be hard-pressed to top.)

 

[Timeetyo]

While I can appreciate the gamification aspects of (typically video-game) progression systems, I think it's also important to remember why they were created: to give players the feeling that they're making progress, even when in real-world terms, they're not particularly. i.e. it's about the discrepancy between how quickly a person *actually* improves at a particular skill or activity, and how quickly they *want* to improve at it. Video games are very good at using progression systems to give the player the feeling that they're improving at a faster rate. Honestly, when it comes to sports activities, disc golf actually is a pretty controllable (i.e. easy to learn and get better at) game. New players generally get better quite quickly, thanks to the (initially) relatively small number of techniques necessary to level out a disc's flight and generally aim a throw.

So I definitely wouldn't agree that [new players] "start with everything they need at hole 1", and I think disc golf does a pretty good job already at giving players the feeling of making rapid progress, but I would concede that, like many physical activities, there are definitely plateaus, places where, for a variety of reasons, players essentially stop improving (for at least a while). These are where I think the concept of video game progression systems make the most sense to look at, although again I suspect that with better course design, and requiring the player to learn a greater diversity of skills, we could definitely do a better of job of keeping players from feeling like they've plateau'd without resorting to 'unlockables' or RNG mechanics. i.e. if the one skill that a course is teaching a player is a natural hyzer, they're likely to learn that skill and plateau at it fairly quickly. But if we design courses to test lots of different skills (together and separately), the disconnect between a players' actual skill progress and their desired skill progress could be a lot smaller.

One thing I'll add on the progression and plataues is that the courses you play (and tees) make a big difference here....especially for a player in the 800s rating wise. I started last year and of course went through that instant fast improvement at the beginning but then started to hit plataues as I got to where getting threes were relatively easy but 2s were generally out of reach. Think about it - relatively open 360' hole. It doesn't take long to where you can throw a 250' drive, easy up, easy putt. But getting from that 250' drive to a 330' drive needed to have a reasonable chance at 2 - that can take a LONG time to become a reality. This is why last fall some of my local courses I just disliked playing as they got boring. Too many ~330-380' holes that just were a test of "can i not horridly fail" and get my 3. What I discovered though was my home course has 3 tees and I had much more fun and could test my skills and see progress better by mixing up the tees. At first I starting getting 2s on the reds. Then slowly on some of the easier whites, etc. The blues still kick my butt, generally. If I didn't have this course, though, I would have thought I went months on end without really making improvement...even though I was slowly but surely adding on distance and accuracy. Thankfully - I am now getting to the point where I can start snagging birdies on a 350' hole if I the stars align and that other course is now much more interesting for me to play. I'm thinking by the end of the summer it will move up my list of favorites even more.

So yeah - the course (and tees) you are playing really make a difference in terms of showing that progression and realizing that you are still making small, incremental progression in skill.

 

[Jessy]

Disc golf is fun because it is me and a disc against the course, I don't need it to be any more. It is by its very nature a meditative and mentally and physically challenging endeavor. If you need it to provide more than that, you need to re-examine your life priorities.

What I'm actually reexamining is whether the thing I'm suggesting is actually disc golf. Disc golf does not have a long history which would prevent it from quickly evolving due to nostalgic reasons, but it does have some standards, and does have "golf" in its name, which has more history.

There are places that have wide paths carved, between tee pads, and baskets that sort of catch flying discs*. Most of these places are in beautiful natural environments which contrast nicely with the offices in which I get work done. There are a plethora of discs that feel nice to hold, and throw. I don't feel that it's important to play by the rules of "golf", to enjoy these things. On the courses, I generally do "play disc golf", but I rarely keep score, and I usually throw multiple discs, enjoy watching their flight paths, and then enjoy running to find them.

* Baskets are the worst part of the game; they can't be relied on and they're not very consistent. They also necessarily damage the discs that are best-suited for putting. I predict that in the future, instead of landing in the basket, you'll have a non-physical pole which will accurately assess whether your disc passed through a vertical line segment.

 

[Matt B.]

You aren't having enough fun or finding disc golf challenging enough? I'll give you some options:

1. Go back to your bedroom and play games on your gaming system/computer where living in the real world isn't necessary.

2. Find a course with something equivalent to Maple Hill Golds and get humbled.

3. Take up extreme masturbation.

If everything in your life has to be like a video game, you're missing the point of living.

My $0.02 as an old fart who loves technology and doesn't think it needs to invade every facet of life. Disc golf is fun because it is me and a disc against the course, I don't need it to be any more. It is by its very nature a meditative and mentally and physically challenging endeavor. If you need it to provide more than that, you need to re-examine your life priorities.

Or he could just do whatever the **** he wants.