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GOAT - The Disc Golf Guy has the key

Basketball is a team sport.

If you were picking a center, and they were all available as healthy 20 year olds, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Moses, Kareem, and more all go before Russell.

Replace Russell with Wilt, and the Celtics are a better team. Replace Shaq with Wilt and the Lakers are a better team. Replace Hakeem with Wilt, and the Rockets are a better team.

Replace Shaq with Russell and the Lakers don't three peat.

John Stockton averaged more points per minute than Bill Russell.

Bill Russell is a fringe honorable mention on the best of all time list, at best.

uh, wrong!

#1 -- MAKE A FREE THROW
that way your guy would at least be in the game at the end.

#2 -- You can't measure heart. The heart of a champion. The heart of a winner. 32 teams, all 32 of them, said the same thing you're saying (about Russell -- so many other guys are better) about Tom Brady. Not once, not twice, not three, not four .... even The Patriots passed on him 5 times before picking him in the 6th. Not a good arm, can't move, can't throw spirals, etc. etc. etc. But he had the heart of a champion.

#3 -- a basketball player has one job only. Just win, baby! Any all-time great list has Bill Russell. Add to Russell's 11 in the NBA that only ONE all-time great has led a mid-major college program to back-to-back NCAA titles. Wilt the brick couldn't do that at almighty Kansas!

#4 -- look at what happened. Chamberlain is an all-time great. Literally, he's the Scott Stokely to Russell's Climo. Watching it happening, live, it appears that one guy has the most skill. But somehow he just can't beat him. It's called greatness.

#5 -- and if I were picking him, I'd pick Kareem 1st. Already said that.
 
Basketball is a team sport.

If you were picking a center, and they were all available as healthy 20 year olds, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Moses, Kareem, and more all go before Russell.

Replace Russell with Wilt, and the Celtics are a better team. Replace Shaq with Wilt and the Lakers are a better team. Replace Hakeem with Wilt, and the Rockets are a better team.

Replace Shaq with Russell and the Lakers don't three peat.

John Stockton averaged more points per minute than Bill Russell.

Bill Russell is a fringe honorable mention on the best of all time list, at best.

Shaq better than Wilt???????????? NFW
 
uh, wrong!

#1 -- MAKE A FREE THROW
that way your guy would at least be in the game at the end.

#2 -- You can't measure heart. The heart of a champion. The heart of a winner. 32 teams, all 32 of them, said the same thing you're saying (about Russell -- so many other guys are better) about Tom Brady. Not once, not twice, not three, not four .... even The Patriots passed on him 5 times before picking him in the 6th. Not a good arm, can't move, can't throw spirals, etc. etc. etc. But he had the heart of a champion.

#3 -- a basketball player has one job only. Just win, baby! Any all-time great list has Bill Russell. Add to Russell's 11 in the NBA that only ONE all-time great has led a mid-major college program to back-to-back NCAA titles. Wilt the brick couldn't do that at almighty Kansas!

#4 -- look at what happened. Chamberlain is an all-time great. Literally, he's the Scott Stokely to Russell's Climo. Watching it happening, live, it appears that one guy has the most skill. But somehow he just can't beat him. It's called greatness.

#5 -- and if I were picking him, I'd pick Kareem 1st. Already said that.

Russell shot like you post from the free throw line. I hope that's not your argument why he's better than Wilt.

Quit comparing a team sport to an individual sport. Climo isn't Russell, and that's an insult to Ken to even compare him to Russell. There was never a single day when Russell was the best basketball player in the world. Ken went years without anyone even questioning it. Russell would routinely get dominated by Wilt. Ken never got repeatedly dominated by Stokely. In their matchups, Wilt doubled Russell's points, and snagged five more rebounds per game. In 94 games, Wilt outscored Russell in 89 of them.

Quit comparing Ken to Russell, Russell doesn't deserve that kind of praise. He won fewer championships in a team sport with only six teams, on by far the most stacked team in the league, than Ken won solo world titles.

Championships mean so much less in a team sport. No one is passing over John Stockton or Karl Malone in an all time NBA draft to pick Dwayne Wade. Wade is a hall of famer with three titles, but he's clearly not as good as those two guys without one.

They had to change the rules of basketball because Wilt was so dominant. There's no question that he's the most dominating player to ever play.

I'm sure you think Horry is no where near Michael, but he just won, baby. That's the number one thing he's gotta do right? Move over, Michael, big shot Bob has seven.

LT, the real LT, not that second rate RB, was the best football player ever. Tom, like Russell, benefited from being on the best team in the league, with the best coach, and the team that got away most with cheating. Tom's great, but Gronk is a more dominant tight end than Tom is a quarterback.

Plug in a healthy, youthful Peyton, Brees, Montana, or more after Bledsoe goes down, and Belichick still has six rings as a head coach. But again, a team sport does not compare to disc golf.

Ken dominated the game in a way that we'll never see again. Ken is much more comparable to LT than Tom. Tom won, but he didn't do anything that the other top three quarterbacks couldn't have done. LT changed the game forever by being so dominant.

No one will ever touch Ken's 95 season. 26 events 23 wins. Finished top three in the three he didn't win.
 
Somewhere in his collection Terry probably has the the same discs that Kenny threw when he was about McBeth's current age. Some of the courses Kenny slew must still be around. OK, maybe the course needs to be reset, but still. Whether it's one or three, McBeth goes in throws the discs in a way that was never dreamed of these many years and bam, end of discussion. So simple 😉

https://youtu.be/z1pvC3gRCaE?t=867
 
Russell shot like you post from the free throw line. I hope that's not your argument why he's better than Wilt.

Quit comparing a team sport to an individual sport. Climo isn't Russell, and that's an insult to Ken to even compare him to Russell. There was never a single day when Russell was the best basketball player in the world. Ken went years without anyone even questioning it. Russell would routinely get dominated by Wilt. Ken never got repeatedly dominated by Stokely. In their matchups, Wilt doubled Russell's points, and snagged five more rebounds per game. In 94 games, Wilt outscored Russell in 89 of them.

Quit comparing Ken to Russell, Russell doesn't deserve that kind of praise. He won fewer championships in a team sport with only six teams, on by far the most stacked team in the league, than Ken won solo world titles.

Championships mean so much less in a team sport. No one is passing over John Stockton or Karl Malone in an all time NBA draft to pick Dwayne Wade. Wade is a hall of famer with three titles, but he's clearly not as good as those two guys without one.

They had to change the rules of basketball because Wilt was so dominant. There's no question that he's the most dominating player to ever play.

I'm sure you think Horry is no where near Michael, but he just won, baby. That's the number one thing he's gotta do right? Move over, Michael, big shot Bob has seven.

LT, the real LT, not that second rate RB, was the best football player ever. Tom, like Russell, benefited from being on the best team in the league, with the best coach, and the team that got away most with cheating. Tom's great, but Gronk is a more dominant tight end than Tom is a quarterback.

Plug in a healthy, youthful Peyton, Brees, Montana, or more after Bledsoe goes down, and Belichick still has six rings as a head coach. But again, a team sport does not compare to disc golf.

Ken dominated the game in a way that we'll never see again. Ken is much more comparable to LT than Tom. Tom won, but he didn't do anything that the other top three quarterbacks couldn't have done. LT changed the game forever by being so dominant.

No one will ever touch Ken's 95 season. 26 events 23 wins. Finished top three in the three he didn't win.

Dude. I always said Champ was the best. To this day. He has 12 rings to prove it.
Man, if Stokely (also an all-time great) could have made some putts, he might have won some championships.

Ditto for Wilt. If he would have been able to make some free throws he might have led his team to more championships. Russell led his team to 11. LED. and ELEVEN. One of those guys could make others around him better. The other just shouted, "gimme the ball." Been watching the documentary??? Even Jordan said he realized in 1990 that to win championships he had to make the players around him better. Ding! Ding! Ding!

Both Stokely and Wilt looked flashy, bordering on spectacular throughout -- then couldn't close when it mattered most. That's the total parallel.

Don't give me the Big shot Bob, Steve Kerr, John Salley conversation. Never the best player on the best team. Russell was. Not once, not twice, not thrice, etc. You don't win ELEVEN championships in the same era as Wilt the brick without more than just luck. Basketball is the ONE team sport where one truly great player can carry you all the way. Wilt just barely got one with the Warriors and one only with a LOADED Lakers team with Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, & then Gail Goodrich. Not sure the brick was even the best player on that Lakers team. Jerry West was the Finals MVP in a losing effort against the Knicks the first time, hitting some 50-something points in one game. Heck your guy is the guy whose team gave Phil Jackson two rings as a player. UH, Nope. Just Nope. And btw, Kareem, only a 2nd-year player, stuck to Wilt in his first conf championship series.

So back to my original point.

You can't compare across eras objectively. In any sport. period.
 
Russell joined the nba in 56, his teammate won the MVP during Russell's first championship season. Russell didn't lead his team in the early part of his career, Cousy did.

Russell is not a top five center, he wouldn't even be the honorable mention sixth.
 
Russell joined the nba in 56, his teammate won the MVP during Russell's first championship season. Russell didn't lead his team in the early part of his career, Cousy did.

Russell is not a top five center, he wouldn't even be the honorable mention sixth.

You keep dreamin' Luke.

It's the same reason why Brees, Farve, Rodgers, aren't in the discussion -- no matter how many records they set.

You got your guy. You like finishing 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, whatever. I don't begrudge you. Different strokes for different folks. Some people like big stats, big numbers. You can have 'em. I like championships. I like winners and leaders. And that horsefeathers about "didn't lead his team" -- Grasping for straws, eh??? HAH! Auerbach picked Russell to be the coach when he retired himself. And, presto, 2 or 3 championship rings later...

Boom.
as in "shaka-laka".

I don't begrudge your guy, like I said. He's up there. Probably the #3 center of all time. But too much of a black hole and ball hog to make anyone else around him better. Just couldn't do that one thing when it mattered most.
 
The team sports and opponent based sports are clearly impossible to even come close to a comparison. Too many variables for which to control. Golf is you against the course and your own mind. Controlling for age, discs and course covers quite a bit of the variables that are impossible with most of the comparisons.
I've seen the videos embedded and that's what made me think of this.
I would pay to see Paul play the same discs and courses (say three of them for a round number) where Kenny tore it up at the same age Paul is now or say next year. It's a more legit comparison than could even be attempted for most other sports than golf.
Also, I'm not totally certain the outcome is clear. But I would pay to see it.
 
You keep dreamin' Luke.

It's the same reason why Brees, Farve, Rodgers, aren't in the discussion -- no matter how many records they set.

You got your guy. You like finishing 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, whatever. I don't begrudge you. Different strokes for different folks. Some people like big stats, big numbers. You can have 'em. I like championships. I like winners and leaders. And that horsefeathers about "didn't lead his team" -- Grasping for straws, eh??? HAH! Auerbach picked Russell to be the coach when he retired himself. And, presto, 2 or 3 championship rings later...

Boom.
as in "shaka-laka".

I don't begrudge your guy, like I said. He's up there. Probably the #3 center of all time. But too much of a black hole and ball hog to make anyone else around him better. Just couldn't do that one thing when it mattered most.

If you like championships, imagine what Wilt would have done on the Celtics. Wilt made everyone around him better than Russell made everyone around him better. Russell just happened to play on the Celtics, a team with multiple hall of famers. There's an argument to be made that Celtics would have won multiple championships without Russell.

Russell didn't lead his team. Not in scoring, not in the locker room. He was never a focal point of the offense. He averaged fewer points per minute than John Stockton, who is famous for passing more than scoring.

Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Moses, David Robinson are all far ahead of Russell with far better, more powerful bodies. The highest I could conceive of Russell being ranked is maybe seven.

He's a great player, but don't compare him to Ken. Russell was never the best player in the NBA, not even for a single quarter. Ken was never questioned as the best player for almost a decade.
 
46 yr old Climo was tied for the lead at 2015 USDGC with a prime 25 yr old McBeth and 22 yr old Wysocki.
 
If you like championships, imagine what Wilt would have done on the Celtics. Wilt made everyone around him better than Russell made everyone around him better. Russell just happened to play on the Celtics, a team with multiple hall of famers. There's an argument to be made that Celtics would have won multiple championships without Russell.

Russell didn't lead his team. Not in scoring, not in the locker room. He was never a focal point of the offense. He averaged fewer points per minute than John Stockton, who is famous for passing more than scoring.

Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Moses, David Robinson are all far ahead of Russell with far better, more powerful bodies. The highest I could conceive of Russell being ranked is maybe seven.

He's a great player, but don't compare him to Ken. Russell was never the best player in the NBA, not even for a single quarter. Ken was never questioned as the best player for almost a decade.


Hey, you got your opinion. Just keep it. Keep saying it. Maybe someday it'll come true. Never the best player in the NBA? How about 5 MVP's during that time? Isn't that the definition of best player in the league? That's more than Stiltie. And more than any of those guys you mentioned. Meaning he had more domination. Comparing athletes' physiques again -- that's the straw you're grabbing now? Really?. As CC would say, C'mom, man! -- different eras.

Your arguments are "opinions". I get it. No problem. Russells got the rings, the MVPs, the finals MOPs, etc. And I know the expression, "chicks dig the long ball," so your focus exclusively on offense is quite telling. I get why you like Wilt more. You think scoring is the be-all, end-all. Stat-padders unite. I get it. I just don't think so. I value an all-around player and leader. One who can do what his teams needs him to do to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS Not just ball-hog -- whether it's defense, offense, assist, steal, set screens, show heart, locker room, inspire. Laughable. A guy you say "didn't lead in the locker room" is hired as the COACH of the team and they STILL win two more championships. Use some logic here. please! Those two statements just don't jive, dude. They don't.

By the way, I've 'imagined' Wilt with Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, and Elgin Baylor -- all-time greats like that. Still didn't happen but once.
 
I believe Coach Edwards said "You play to win the game". Therefore Bill Russell is easily GOAT. The argument that the Celtics would still have won all those titles without him is laughable. He won in college. He won in the Olympics. He won in the pros. He still won even as player-coach. Russell was the heart of every team he ever played on, passed as well as any center who ever played, and dominated the boards, esp. in the biggest games. Wilt (and Kareem) scored. Bill won. Put him up against any other of the top centers and he shuts them down.
The most deserved GOATs in all sports however are Wayne Gretzky and Babe Ruth. They both dominated in team sports and dominated their sports at a level never duplicated before or since, and won, although not at a Russell level.
 
Besides, in their primes, Kareem still had the unblockable shot, and could lead multiple franchises to multiple championships ...

I recall a Kareem in his prime (and Rambis with him) getting schooled by Moses Malone in a Finals series. Hmmm.
 
Not only is Bill Russell the GOAT of the NBA he is the GOAT of all athletes ever to compete. Jordan, Lebron, Bird, Magic, or any other players are lucky they didn't go up against Russell for they would have but a few championships among themselves... just ask Wilt. Moreover Russell is also one of the classiest human beings to ever walk the earth. Because there are so many opinions let Russell or Climo show you their trophie rooms and that should put an end to all arguments.
 
Lol.

Wilt is very clearly the goat, and it's not even close.

Michael is still far ahead of LeBron, however.


Except that Bill Russell won championships 11/13 seasons, adapted to the needs of his team each year, and negated Wilt's contributions when they were head to head? Wilt was certainly the most athletic, physically talented, etc. But GOAT? That takes a whole lot more. It takes something that Jordan and Russell certainly had, LeBron might have, and Wilt certainly didn't have. It takes a drive to be the best. Chamberlain was more concerned with getting laid.

To tie this back into the larger discussion. McBeth and Climo are both incredibly physically talented. But they also have this insane competitiveness that most people don't have. I'll enjoy watching them separately, and wish I could watch them together just like I wish I could have watched Jordan face off against Russell. I'd compare Wilt to someone like Garrett Gurthie or Scott Stokely. They are incredibly talented physically, but that obsessive (borderline psychological disorder) drive to be the best isn't there.
 
haha I hadn't even seen the two posts right before me when I posted this.
 
There are people who think Paul is the GOAT and then there are people who are wrong. You'll never convince a Kenny fan and no one really cares to anyways lol

Paul is the Tiger of disc golf. Best thing that could have ever happened to the sport.
 

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