Help me throw discs gooder!

[AtomicDom]

Hi all, new to the forum and I thought I'd introduce myself as well as throw out a form analysis all in one.

I've been playing DG for about 8-9 years. I've just recently started to take the game more serious and am striving to get better, doing drills, discing down, doing field work, etc. I want to take 4-5 strokes off my game in the next year and I'm willing to put in the work that's necessary.

I live in Louisville, KY. My home course is Iroquois Park DGC, a not too tough, but heavily wooded 18 hole, par 54. The course was actually redone and completely changed it's layout a few years ago and it's become a lot tougher than I was used to.

Currently I'm driving around 275'-300' in favorable (I'm having a good day) conditions. I've seemed to always have trouble generating snap, as my friends that I've played with for years have been able to for quite a while now. I'm finally at that point that I got frustrated at watching my friends progress and get better, while I was still throwing rounds like +10. So I've started breaking everything down, trying to lose bad habits.

So without further ado, here's the fun part:

Form Check: Throwing a Zline Buzzz here.


Form Check, From Behind: Throwing a Champion XOut Leopard.


I'm pretty sure I'm rounding in my reachback, but not completely sure of others I may be doing wrong.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[AtomicDom]

Form Check

Form Check, Behind

For some reason video wouldn't show through flash player for me.

 

[AtomicDom]

Sorry, still getting used to forum syntax!

 

[slowplastic]

You need to get your right elbow forward...out in front of you. Get your disc to your right pec/right armpit (float/glide it to that position with similar timing as you have now), then start the throw. Right now you are swinging your forearm at the elbow at the same time as your hips...there's essentially zero power being translated to the throw and you are throwing with a short lever (just forearm), and no wrist involvement.

I know this sounds bad...but that's a good thing. It means you have tons of distance (easy casual distance) to gain when you get the timing/arm/elbow positions correct. Plus it looks like you're pretty flowing/comfortable so that's a good thing and will keep translating to further improvements. It can be hard to get used to the different arm positions, so throwing from standstill with mids and putters (just watch for more glidey/straight flights) can be the easiest way to learn this. Don't expect massive gains in distance right away...just look for straighter/cleaner flights...and as you reinforce the new techniques over several sessions you'll add the distance gradually.

 

[AtomicDom]

Really appreciate the feedback. It's been pointed out to me that I'm rounding as well so I'm working on that.

I can definitely see what you're talking about now. I think that all this time I haven't been winding "the spring" or "coil" as I should. I'm working on that by trying to think of my drive like a left handed pitcher (I'm right handed, but pitched in little league) or a tennis backhand. I feel like my timing has been good, but my positioning and muscle tensions are off.

Do you feel like there's no tension in your arm all the way to the core/right pec?

I've always had trouble generating snap (or hearing it audibly like others'), could that be a grip issue as well? I just recently realized my grip pressure was wrong, pushing the Disc into my Palm. I'm trying to grip as hard as I can between thumb and the first knuckle of my index finger, though right now that feels a bit odd.

Thanks for any and all help!

 

[sidewinder22]

I def agree with elbow forward and rounding. You are spinning your weight out around instead of shifting it forward(from behind you braced). You turn your head and shoulders before your weight shift.

 

[AtomicDom]

I've been practicing the can crush drill in my free time (even at work so I look extra weird). Would you say that when you plant and shift the weight to the plant foot, is the plant leg acting like it's braced against a wall?

I'm trying to get the weight shift down, and have my hips leading my shoulders, but my center of gravity feels more through my spine/core than through that front leg.

Anyone have a way this might be broken down to better understand and incorporate in my drives? As of right now I understand the concept but am having trouble putting it into use.

Thanks again!

 

[sidewinder22]

It's like jumping side to side quickly maintaining dynamic balance and bracing your weight inside your leg/foot like a skier turning. The pressure of your weight can't be on the outside edge of the ski or foot or you will tip over and crash.

 

[merakecow]

I spent a lot of time not understanding or getting any kind of feel for the weight shift and plant. The weight shift always felt forced which also made it a lot hard to have consistent timing with other parts of the throw. A week or two ago something (probably something sidewinder said) helped me start to get the hang of it and I have been feeling better about it each day I've thrown. I will try to explain what I think I was doing wrong before and what it feels like now and maybe you will relate to some of it.

The way I had been thinking about the weight shift was counter productive to improving. I was trying to shove my weight forward by push really hard on my back leg. This just made my balance all wonky. I think it also caused my center of mass to slow down following my x-step before "driving" off of my rear leg.

Like SW22 said it feels a lot more like you are jumping to the side while maintaining dynamic balance. I would say that it feels to my like my back foot/leg is not pushing my weight forward but guiding my body position as weight settles on my front leg so that I can maintain balance and support the weight. Throwing with a really exaggerated hop like Steve Brinster should help get the feeling and also force you to stay dynamically balanced.

 

[slowplastic]

Do you feel like there's no tension in your arm all the way to the core/right pec?

I've always had trouble generating snap (or hearing it audibly like others'), could that be a grip issue as well? I just recently realized my grip pressure was wrong, pushing the Disc into my Palm. I'm trying to grip as hard as I can between thumb and the first knuckle of my index finger, though right now that feels a bit odd.

No tension in the arm to the right pec position, and to be honest the more lately I've been throwing the more of an arm "slinging" feeling I've been having and the less tension through my arm I've been having in general throughout the entire throw (but of course I do power it at some point). But especially there should be no real tension in the muscles to the right pec/armpit area. Just watch super slow mo vids of the pro's...you can see when their arms go crazy with muscle input partway into the throw.

Audible snap means nothing, it's just your fingers hitting your palm. Some people always have it, some people never have it, I have it sometimes and it's often not on my better throws...but sometimes it is. It means nothing related to flight. To me, "snap" means holding onto the disc late and getting your wrist to open up...which ends up slinging the back of the disc forwards. Imagine a forehand throw while wearing a wrist guard/brace...the disc can only leave as fast as your forearm is moving. Then take it off and let yourself snap your wrist. It's this same analogy but in a backhand...and so many players don't get their body/arm into position to allow for the wrist to be involved (it's a passive thing...don't try to add it in...just throw with a loose wrist and in the right positions. The wrist will close from the disc's weight loading it near the right pec, then sling open during the hit).

 

[Phule77]

I'm having a lot of trouble with this concept when trying to throw higher speed discs. If I push it, I can turn just about anything understable (getting some crazy shots with my Insanity doing this)...it quicky goes into overgrip territory.

The above poster talks about keeping your wrist loose, but how do you keep some things loose, while keeping others tight? That hurts my head.

When I do get snap on discs, it's almost accidental, (and I don't mean the sound, I mean the release the disc needs to attain the necessary speed) and that's incredibly infuriating, because I don't know what it is I'm aiming for, I just know when I hit it.

 

[slowplastic]

The above poster talks about keeping your wrist loose, but how do you keep some things loose, while keeping others tight? That hurts my head.

When I do get snap on discs, it's almost accidental, (and I don't mean the sound, I mean the release the disc needs to attain the necessary speed) and that's incredibly infuriating, because I don't know what it is I'm aiming for, I just know when I hit it.

The loose wrist is for finding the hit...which as I described to me means the correct arm positions to allow for wrist involvement. It's easiest to feel the sensation with a loose wrist and only throwing at 60% power and from a standstill, and with narrower rimmed discs like mids and putters. The wider the rim, the wider your grip, and the harder for the wrist motion I find.

I do not have a loose wrist anymore, and I don't feel the wrist involvement much because I'm just so used to the feeling at this point so my shots just feel "normal". But the same arm positions are there for me. The whole loose wrist thing is a good way for me to feel the disc weight loading into the power pocket, and accelerating outwards at the hit.

 

[AtomicDom]

Update: 6/12/15

UPDATE



Ugh, it's a frustrating road we travel, trying to unlock this puzzle. I don't feel any closer than when I started a few weeks ago. The only real improvement I've seen is in accuracy, distance is still bad.

Putters I can get around 180'
Mids 200-220'
Drivers 240-250'

I've spent hours upon hours upon hours, just pouring over the vast amount of information there is here in this forum, on the DGR, and countless other places.
I'd first like to give a giant thanks to some of the guys that have made some of this information so readily available, SW22, HUB, BWalker, Beto, all of you guys are awesome and I'm very thankful for you guys to pass along and try to explain how to really throw a disc!

I'm going to be going out today to do some more field work and hopefully get a better grasp on snap. I plan on working from the hit backwards as beto said, by doing a bunch of the right pec drill to start with.

I've been doing countless drills, inside the house and out, just constantly dissecting every nugget of knowledge I can find in some dusty old thread somewhere.

I'm just not seeing any progress! It's become incredibly frustrating. Everytime I read and gain a bit of knowledge, I'm also reading others' success stories and it just makes me think I should be able to figure this whole thing out. It can't be as complicated as I'm making it.

So anyways, below is a few views on current form. I took the time to look it over and noticed my weight was a little too far forward in a couple. Others, I could see where I was rounding, though it's crazy to think that because I was concentrating so hard at the time at keeping my arm OUT.

I also have a question about the order of timing of events in the throw. I know I'm supposed to work from the hit backwards, but I feel as though when I'm really throwing, my hips, shoulders, forearm extension, are all happening at the wrong time. Can anyone break down the timing order (ideally)?


Any help is always appreciated, and thanks again for helping me on my quest to 400'!

 

[slowplastic]

For me, I focused on the arm position first to allow for correct (or more correct...it's hard to be perfect) shoulder positioning, to get all of your levers firing at the hit point. It was easiest for me to figure this out from a stand still throw (or one step, shuffling front foot forward) because it eliminates more variables.

Right pec drill never worked for me. Too different from a throw, and no flow. It works for some people. Keep in mind that drills are there to help you learn how to throw better, but if you can do it in a throw properly, that's even better.

Remember that the throw is a smooth flowing motion, not just a series of steps. If you are thinking of 12 different things at once, you won't have flow. And if you do the same thing 10 times in a row and expect it to get better/suddenly improve...you're crazy.

When searching for the hit point I just stand still threw discs in an open field...swing back (like the Dingle Arm video) into the weight shift, and get yourself smoothly into the right pec position and throw. Did you feel the disc snap out faster than your arm speed? Or did it flutter and flip over? If it was good or decent, try again immediately with the same type of timing. If it didn't work, change your arm positions or something.

With your current elbow positioning you won't really be able to get past 350', that's at least where I was stuck when I had that arm position...and you'll be throwing way harder to get there too. Getting this snap is, to me, the important part. Then get it into your muscle memory, and start adding more momentum back in to your throw.

Don't expect large distance jumps immediately, just look for straighter flights. This extra stabilization (along with increased speed that will happen on the throw) is what will let your putters and mids fly out there straight for longer.

 

[AtomicDom]

I'm still trying to figure out where my arm positions should be and at what times.
Currently, I just know where I should be at reach back, then right peg and then that my upper arm should be 90 degrees from my shoulder.
Everything else has kinda been lost in translation

Appreciate the help!

 

[slowplastic]

This worked for me, and I've used it to get a bunch of people into the correct positions...but if it's lost in translation because of the internet then don't drive yourself crazy with it. Post #6 has a few crude diagrams.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109910

 

[sidewinder22]

You are turned backwards slightly early, but the biggest issue when you start your forward swing, you shift forward and turn upper body and head without the lower body(hips).

 

[AtomicDom]

After field work today, I'm having a little bit of progress.

I tried to mostly do all my throws from the right pec, or just a reachback, all at a standstill.

What i noticed was that as I delayed my speed until I got my elbow out further, I would get much straighter, glide-ier throws. Distance didn't change much, but some were definitely looking better. I read through that thread Slow, and I'm going to try to practice that little wrist loading drill here in a few in my backyard. Hopefully this is a bit of what I was feeling by trying to extend the elbow further out in front of me before I start to throw out my forearm.

SW22, When I try to concentrate on creating motion with my hips, I feel as though just my hips are turning and everything else is just lagging behind, not really getting any tension or power. I have a feeling that that is where my biggest timing issues lies. Should I just practice more Hershyzer, Can Crush, Power of Posture?

 

[sidewinder22]

Sounds like you are spinning out. You need to resist turning on the front side, see part 2:

 

[cboucher]

I'm definitely not the best person to give advice, but I used to be in a similar situation so what helped me may help you. So I did the same as you, I researched form on the internet, did a bunch of field work, etc... However, every time I tried something new I read about I would get small improvements, but nothing really dramatic. I couldn't get any snap to save my life. I did two things that helped me get both distance and accuracy and dramatically improved my game. The first was grip. I tried all the grips you see talked about online, but the one that worked for me was the one Will Schusterick talks about in that video he did a while back. Basically, your middle finger is the rip point, the knuckle crease on your index finger is the kind of a guide to help keep the disc at the appropriate angle and the thumb presses down and kind of pinches the flight plate against the middle/ring fingers. The second thing was adding a little wrist flick at the hit. I've heard a lot of people say you shouldn't actively try to flick your wrist at the hit and they're probably right. I just noticed that the moment I started using a wrist flick at the hit, all of a sudden I got way more spin on the disc and actually got my discs to turn like the flight chart says they're supposed to instead of just always going short and left unless I put a ridiculous amount of anhyzer on it. I guess my point is that it's good to try new ideas and learn from other people, but at the end of the day you have to experience what a good drive feels like and then work from there. The two little changes in my form (grip and wrist flick) enabled me to feel what it is like to throw a good drive. That feeling is what you need so that you know what to practice. It's all about what works for you. Oh yeah, and having fun, that's number one.