Is this a growing trend in tournaments?

[dmalexander]

I see a lot of temp holes being added, and for the most part, I hate it. They usually play well, but I think it takes away from the original layout of course. As far as the 5 packs, especially around here, it's just a matter of the greed on the TD's part. Squeeze one more in in each group and add temp holes and he gets to line his pockets.

 

[weeman]

@DavidSauls - Thanks for your input. I agree with several of your points (bigger division, playing with more friends) but I don't agree that the money from more Ams should go to the Open purse. I'm aware of the Am-scam and have come to terms with it. I'd rather them raise the fee ten more dollars to keep it at four-somes.

@Countchunkula - I'm not saying that every temp hole is bad. There are quite a few that I like. The extra six put in on both Mt. Airy and Harbin for the Flying Pig in Cincy are among my favorites and the extra nine at Charlie Vettiner for the CVO in 2008 (and possibly this year) are good challenging holes. The temps I played at Skeeter Heater this year, the Buffalo Trace Open, and the Louisville Classic were for the birds. Most all were pitch and putts just so there could be more people.

@zenbot - Point me to where I can play that hole.

@dehaas - I completely agree that you should be planning on playing an event, not just showing up and expecting to get in. Since most everything is now done online, they can go ahead and preregister or know someone they can give money to to do it for them. It really bothers me when an event fills up but there's several no-shows because they just signed up in name without actually handing over cash to hold their spot. It screws with a lot of people that way.

@dmalexander - That's why there are slim-to-none Advanced or Open players that play his tournaments.

 

[Danger]

As far of the 5 somes go, lets be real here. If you were one of the very few TD's in town, wouldn't YOU want to make a few extra bucks off of your work? TD's don't get paid for their work unless they fill the event, and even then they usually keep a very small amount. If people had a problem with groups of 5, they would stop showing up, and that CLEARLY is not the issue

Temp holes are fun but I agree that they are rarely better than the original course. Not always though, I have also seen them as stand out signature-like holes that really make the tourney fun. It also allows for more of a score spread as it gives the course locals a disadvantage. One course that practically relies on temp holes is Chavez Ridge. It is a heavily wooded course on top of a ridge, most holes are under 200 feet. Many tournaments play a completely different course (alt tees, temp baskets, the whole bit) for the first round, then the traditional course the second round. It works very well and I believe that is one of the main ways the course attracts players...it just makes the tourney more FUN. I think the TD actually gets to enjoy making the temp holes and hopes you enjoy them too; I think the lesson here is to remember to have fun and stop taking yourself so seriously

 

[Sneaky Alligator]

most waits are caused by the guy who takes too much time to set up each shot

this

 

[joesouthfla]

If you have a couple tournament folks out on the course making sure people are not playing to slow then 5 on a card should not be a problem.

 

[Stetz1010]

Has anyone mentioned that the more players there are in your division the more points you earn if you place? and also, if I'm right, the more players the higher rated your round is if you score well?

 

[#19325]

I'm part of the original IOS crew since 2003. www.illinoisopenseries.com

We decided to add 2-6 temp holes on every course. We've tried to make them the best we possibly can. A few holes have actually been the signature hole on the course. We've used rubber tee pads and Mach 2,3,5or Discraft Chainstars baskets. Sometimes they are better than the baskets on the regular course.

We are players running events. We run events we want to play. We want a lot of players in our divisions and the biggest possible event out there. I have yet to run into 1 tournament director that spends all this time preparing for an event then says "I hope this event small and doesn't fill". If they are capable of getting 90 players over 72 they are going to do it.

2 rounds of 18 holes in disc golf is not very much golf. We have tournament players that are in it for the long haul.

For a few years our player base expanded where we were filling each day at every event. Players refuse to preregister so there is no way to predict attendance. Many events in my area fill. 5'somes are common as well as temps. Back in 2006 I was able to play 2 rounds of 27 holes with all 5'somes. Avery Jenkins didn't like the 5 hour round! http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/11758/Open

A few years ago I revived the Sinnissippi Open in Sterling, IL. I ran a 1 day event on a Saturday. I had 24holes set up and filled 5 somes. I put in a floater group of 5. I had a car load of guys who drove from STL which is 5+ hours. They were at the cutoff point where it was full. I had an extra basket in the car and set up a 25th hole. They thanked me so much for letting them play. I had to turn away another 20+ players. With 4'somes I would have capped out at 100. I ended up getting 25 more players in.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/13436/Open

 

[biscoe]

Has anyone mentioned that the more players there are in your division the more points you earn if you place? and also, if I'm right, the more players the higher rated your round is if you score well?

points have no value, ratings are not dependent on number of players beyond having the minimum.

 

[biscoe]

We are players running events. We run events we want to play. We want a lot of players in our divisions and the biggest possible event out there. I have yet to run into 1 tournament director that spends all this time preparing for an event then says "I hope this event small and doesn't fill". If they are capable of getting 90 players over 72 they are going to do it.

2 rounds of 18 holes in disc golf is not very much golf. We have tournament players that are in it for the long haul.

For a few years our player base expanded where we were filling each day at every event. Players refuse to preregister so there is no way to predict attendance. Many events in my area fill.

hey brett,
i'm the TD who can get 90 but only takes 72... my event filled in 4 hours a couple of years ago.

my logic behind only allowing 4-somes is the same as yours for having temp holes and fivesomes- i run events i would want to play... i don't like 5-somes and i don't like temp holes... our local courses are plenty long and challenging without them.

36 holes at loriella, blockhouse, or hawk hollow is plenty of golf (some would say too much at hawk hollow)- i doubt your players are in for the "long haul" any more than anyone elses.

i was driving up to the west virginia open at paw paw a few years back when it hit me that i was absolutely dreading playing in 5-somes up there- the waiting gets ridiculous on those courses in particular. after that it was no more 5-somes for me.

once you turn away people a few times they will begin to preregister...

 

[discman27]

Aren't we getting to the point where tourneys fill so fast, that we need to only accept the highest rated players, or at least just PDGA members? Allow everyone to register up to a certain point and then pick the 72 highest rated players or something. Should top pros be turned away because there's 30 rec players?

I agree 5somes suck and 2 rounds of 18 in one day is plenty of golf. It's not about accommodating everybody, it's about determining the best players.

JS

 

[Jax11]

I'm part of the original IOS crew since 2003. www.illinoisopenseries.com

We decided to add 2-6 temp holes on every course. We've tried to make them the best we possibly can. A few holes have actually been the signature hole on the course. We've used rubber tee pads and Mach 2,3,5or Discraft Chainstars baskets. Sometimes they are better than the baskets on the regular course.

We are players running events. We run events we want to play. We want a lot of players in our divisions and the biggest possible event out there. I have yet to run into 1 tournament director that spends all this time preparing for an event then says "I hope this event small and doesn't fill". If they are capable of getting 90 players over 72 they are going to do it.

2 rounds of 18 holes in disc golf is not very much golf. We have tournament players that are in it for the long haul.

For a few years our player base expanded where we were filling each day at every event. Players refuse to preregister so there is no way to predict attendance. Many events in my area fill. 5'somes are common as well as temps. Back in 2006 I was able to play 2 rounds of 27 holes with all 5'somes. Avery Jenkins didn't like the 5 hour round! http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/11758/Open

A few years ago I revived the Sinnissippi Open in Sterling, IL. I ran a 1 day event on a Saturday. I had 24holes set up and filled 5 somes. I put in a floater group of 5. I had a car load of guys who drove from STL which is 5+ hours. They were at the cutoff point where it was full. I had an extra basket in the car and set up a 25th hole. They thanked me so much for letting them play. I had to turn away another 20+ players. With 4'somes I would have capped out at 100. I ended up getting 25 more players in.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/13436/Open

Brett, when you are given appropriate terrain your temp holes are AWESOME, and when the terrain is not there IOS and you add OB to make them somewhat challenging (Bevier Blast 2010). As Chockula mentioned, Sinnissippi always has great temp holes, and the Chains Amateur Championships at Adler two summers ago was unbelievable. The 8-12 temps (can't remember how many) were as good if not better than the course itself.

I also like temp holes that the IOS has because it puts the non-locals on an even playing field for a few holes.

As far as five-somes, I am not a fan and of course would rather play on a card of four, but I tolerate them for all the reasons people have mentioned above. The one thing that does bother me. I played in a tourney recently and they didn't fill, so they had 3-somes on every card and my group was waiting on the next group after playing our fifth hole. In the 2nd round they put everyone in 4-somes and every group had a couple hole cushion in front and behind them and the waiting was minimal. In that scenario I would rather play in a group of 4 (hypothetically 5) and never have to wait on the tee for the group in front of us.

 

[whiz]

Brett, any desire to move down to Charlotte and run some tournaments? Despite the great courses I really, really miss the IOS events. They are still the best run events I have played anywhere in the country. Keep it up and ignore the haters.

PS. All Prereg is awesome and is totally the future of tournaments imo.

-Paul Priest

 

[jobwilson]

Turn away those who pay the bills. Great idea.

If the local disc golf tournaments drew large spectator crowds, this MAY work. But they don't.

If you start forcing the lower rated players out, then disc golf is going to start devolving. If you are so interested in playing with higher rated players, then you should go on tour. Until then, you're stuck playing with me and the guys like me down in Rec/Intermediate. You know, the guys who dedicate their countless hours (in some cases, per day) to growing disc golf. The guys who buy all the new discs even though we can't throw them, just because. The guys who are really fans of the sport and really get a thrill out of watching a beautiful throw. Basically, the guys who personify the grass roots attitude of disc golf.

You think I'm going to go out and try and raise hundreds of dollars if I have no chance of playing? You think I'm going to spend an entire Saturday building steps just to be bumped by somebody from out of town whose rating is 20 points higher than mine?

The more I think about your comment, the more infuriated I am getting.

That being said, temp holes are fine if they are good holes. As weeman said, the holes at Buffalo Trace were not good holes. The holes at the Derby City Classic in March were even worse. On the other hand, the two temp holes we play in the Pumpkin Shootout are really fun holes that fit within the overall feel of the course. If it wasn't for restrictions seemingly placed by the park board, these holes would be in the ground.

As far as fivesomes go, I'm fine if they aren't paired with terrible temp holes. Longer rounds are a fact of life. I'm fine with it. If more are playing, then more are spending, which means the sport is growing.

Aren't we getting to the point where tourneys fill so fast, that we need to only accept the highest rated players, or at least just PDGA members? Allow everyone to register up to a certain point and then pick the 72 highest rated players or something. Should top pros be turned away because there's 30 rec players?

I agree 5somes suck and 2 rounds of 18 in one day is plenty of golf. It's not about accommodating everybody, it's about determining the best players.

JS

 

[Discwrangler]

I'd rather have more people playing. I don't mind 5-somes, but usually I'm playing with pretty good golfers so it goes quick. I don't mind temp holes, then again, I've never met a golf hole I don't like, just ones I don't play well.

 

[DavidSauls]

Aren't we getting to the point where tourneys fill so fast, that we need to only accept the highest rated players, or at least just PDGA members? Allow everyone to register up to a certain point and then pick the 72 highest rated players or something. Should top pros be turned away because there's 30 rec players?

Perhaps we'll just need more people to step up and start running tournaments, so there are more spots to hold more players.

*

Note that from a TD's perspective, those 30 rec players are more valuable than the top pros. But if he/she wishes, a certain number of spots can be reserved for pros to keep the rec players from filling the tournament.

 

[scarpfish]

Aren't we getting to the point where tourneys fill so fast, that we need to only accept the highest rated players, or at least just PDGA members? Allow everyone to register up to a certain point and then pick the 72 highest rated players or something. Should top pros be turned away because there's 30 rec players?

With respect to most tournaments no, because those two player demographics generally don't play in the same events. Top pros have the National Tour and the select A-tiers and rec players have numerous other A-B-C-tier and unsanctioned events many of which do not fill up.

And even if we got to that point, no it would never happen. No TD in his right mind would have players send him money for a spot, have those players go through the process of making preparations for the tourney, and then tell them at the last minute they've been bumped. If a TD wishes to be selective, he should not offer divisions to begin with.

If you start forcing the lower rated players out, then disc golf is going to start devolving. If you are so interested in playing with higher rated players, then you should go on tour. Until then, you're stuck playing with me and the guys like me down in Rec/Intermediate. You know, the guys who dedicate their countless hours (in some cases, per day) to growing disc golf.

Considering he made such an obtuse statement for his first post, I wonder if he has even played in or assisted in running a tournament. Some folks around here like to soak up the ambiance for awhile and then spout off like they know something.

 

[scarpfish]

I see a lot of temp holes being added, and for the most part, I hate it. They usually play well, but I think it takes away from the original layout of course. As far as the 5 packs, especially around here, it's just a matter of the greed on the TD's part. Squeeze one more in in each group and add temp holes and he gets to line his pockets.

Yeah, we wouldn't want those guys to make any money or anything. I much prefer to have TD's burn out after just a few events and have nobody to take their places because there's no profit incentive. I know of a few long established B-tiers that kind of came to a halt or seem to only pop up sporadically now precisely because of this.

How many people can play when there's no tournament because no one wants to run one? I can assure you that its less than 72.

 

[denny ritner]

hey brett,
i'm the TD who can get 90 but only takes 72... my event filled in 4 hours a couple of years ago.

my logic behind only allowing 4-somes is the same as yours for having temp holes and fivesomes- i run events i would want to play... i don't like 5-somes and i don't like temp holes... our local courses are plenty long and challenging without them.

36 holes at loriella, blockhouse, or hawk hollow is plenty of golf (some would say too much at hawk hollow)- i doubt your players are in for the "long haul" any more than anyone elses.

i was driving up to the west virginia open at paw paw a few years back when it hit me that i was absolutely dreading playing in 5-somes up there- the waiting gets ridiculous on those courses in particular. after that it was no more 5-somes for me.

once you turn away people a few times they will begin to preregister...

What John said.

I don't think that TD's are "getting greedy" as was posted, but just trying to keep their losses down by allowing in more players. When you add up all the TD hours put into an event, we earn $5 an hour or less. (I've always lost money on running events.) I'd much rather see, however, that TD's just take a $5-$10 "administrative fee", publicized in advance than to sacrifice the tournament experience by adding in more am players to make money off on the payout.

As to players that get shut out of the event: boo freakin' hoo. pre-register, if you have to travel. otherwise, hang out and volunteer, caddy, spectate, or find somewhere else to play disc golf or something else to do for the day, it's not the end of the world.

 

[discman27]

What I'm saying is that registration shouldn't be determined by who registers the fastest. There have been some tourneys in the northeast that fill the same day. Shouldn't first priority go to the best local players?

Yes, top pros and rec players don't play in the same tourneys. I meant to say top local pros.

There could be a pre-registration where you request to get in a tourney and then a week before, the field is finalized and the money is due by the morning of the tourney.

"Turn away those that pay the bills."
What are you talking about? If the tourney's full then the bills are paid.

The only thing making disc golf devolve is paying 50% of the Rec field. Sometimes disc golf reminds me of preschool, everyone gets to feel good about themselves regardless of how they competed. Lets go play musical chairs with the same number of chairs as people! How can you be excited to get 10th place in Rec? By choosing a lower division you have already lost! Challenge yourself!

This really comes down to pros and ams having 2 different goals. Pros want to determine the best player and ams just want to have fun and make everyone happy. There need to be 2 separate governing bodies!

 

[discman27]

You should only be working on the course because you want to. Not because of some incentive to get in a tourney.

Tournaments should be run by volunteers to determine the best disc golfers not to turn a profit. Maybe if there is corporate sponsorship the TD can get paid.

When I first started I would have completely understood if I was told that I didn't have enough experience or my rating wasn't high enough. You can have starter tourneys for people to get a rating or maybe the PDGA can come up with a way to rate local league players.

Finally, why does everybody think that growing the sport will help them. It will only hurt. Now is the best time for local disc golfers. Free courses that don't get too crowded. Tournaments that let in any player. Growth will take the decision making out of the grassroots type people and put it in the hands of corporations only interested in making money. Money always makes things worse. The golden age of disc golf is now.

Hey Scarpfish, why do you have to degrade my post? You shouldn't assume when you don't know me at all.