Marshall Street PDGA Rules Letter

[smyith]

Perhaps the PDGA and the manufacturers and tournament players have never made a big deal out of overweight and over-stiff discs because it has such minimal impact on how well a disc flies.
A ping pong ball weighs 2 and a half grams. No one can tell the difference in a couple grams in feel or in flight. So why do you care?

First, Touring players call this on each other more often then you would think.
Second, just because you are not skilled enough to notice the difference a couple grams makes does not mean it doesn't make a difference. More skilled players are able to notice the subtle differences.
Third, heavier discs dont travel farther....notice pretty much all distance records are with lightweight discs. Heavier discs fight out of the spin and speed faster. Allowing for a different flight path. And personally I think they fight against the wind better....but I wont say that as fact cause I dont know for sure.

Cheating is gaining an unfair competitive advantage. Throwing a too heavy disc does not do this. Find something more important to care about.

Why did you come in this thread? To troll? Obviously some people like to have more meaningful discussions than "what disc do you throw" or "why my disc is better than yours cause i got an ace with it". Please go back to those and learn nothing, theres an education in this thread that you are obviously too dense to pick up on. Your loss and our aggravation.
And see my comment address your other post. You don't understand how weight effects the disc so you go around declaring it doesnt....stupid.

great so they want floppy stupid silly soft distance drivers? no thanks, i would quit playing in tournaments if they made drivers that soft a requirement..

Its not anywhere near as soft as you're thinking. Most discs out there would pass with flying colors. Flex has become a recent issue. If you can bend your disc slightly without minimal force it will pass.

About 4 people on this stupid silly site care anything about this bs. Y'all are a bunch of losers who cant win a tournament without crying fowl. Make birdies and win. Bunch a sissy's over here. Nobody cares about this bs. Actions speak louder then words. Make birdies with a 300g piece of marble for all I care. You cant and you suck thats why you are defending this non topic.

Safety really????? How many of you have seen someone get hit by a disc??? Ok a few. How many of you have seen that person taken away in an ambulance??? Ok, about none. Really. Whatta Joke. None of this matters.

Had you taken the time to read the thread instead of trolling you would have seen the arguments that the rule should be changed/abolished because it is arbitrarily based on BS. Its not for safety its for the pDGA to cover its own behind for legal action. People get hit more often than you think. Some courses are compacted and chuckers dont call "fore" often.
Additionally, you would have also noticed the conversation turn from that to how it could be done to enforce the ruling as is or with slight tweaks to put minimal cost on the manufacturer. Some of us like to have more worthwhile discussions than which disc you personal throw. If you don't find value in it than go somewhere else. Your voice doesn't need to be heard everywhere. Add something of worth to the discussion or leave without saying anything.

Then we are all cheaters, including you.

assuming makes an a** out of you not me [in this case tbird888]
some of us do actually do our best to conform to the rules. all my discs are legal weight (for tourns) and I am 99% they would all pass the flex test.

 

[Widdershins]

How do you figure?

Tell me you have never foot faulted. Tell me you have never seen a foot fault by another and not called it.

Not all violations are the same. Some involve actions which matter to the integrity of the competition, some do not. If your disc is slightly too stiff it does not improve your chances of winning.

If you flip your disc rather than mark it with a mini it gives no competitive advantage yet it is a rules violation. It ain't cheating.

Being Holier Than Thou about rules does not make you a more ethical player, just a Rules Nazi. Go play in the lower Amateur divisions and call every foot fault you see. You will be a real popular fellow and you can brag about how much you improved the game.

 

[Widdershins]

some of us do actually do our best to conform to the rules. all my discs are legal weight (for tourns) and I am 99% they would all pass the flex test.

I am so proud of you. :thmbdown:

 

[tbird888]

If you flip your disc rather than mark it with a mini it gives no competitive advantage yet it is a rules violation. It ain't cheating.

A rule violation is cheating. Have you ever followed an Open card? The rules are strongly enforced.

Rules nazi? Heaven forbid I agree that rules of competition should be followed. What a jerk! Since it doesn't provide any competitive advantage to ol' Widdershins, I guess I'll start adding some weight to the rim of my driving putter right away. I do make calls in competition. I'm also light-hearted and a clown on my card. I've made more friends on all my cards than enemies. If you don't want to abide by the rules of competition, don't come out to a sanctioned event, plain and simple.

You obviously either didn't read Smiyth's reply above or didn't understand it. He covered all of this rather thoroughly.

 

[Cgkdisc]

When you're following the rules, it's a sport. When you judge which rules can be bent, it's a game. Room for both as long as everyone playing agrees whether you are playing sport or a game.

 

[tbird888]

When you're following the rules, it's a sport. When you judge which rules can be bent, it's a game. Room for both as long as everyone playing agrees whether you are playing sport or a game.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

This might be the first time I've replied to one of your posts on this topic without presenting a counter argument.

 

[smyith]

Tell me that you have never foot faulted. Tell me that you have never seen a foot fault by another and not called it.

Not all violations are the same. Some involve actions which matter to the integrity of the competition, some do not. If your disc is slightly too stiff it does not improve your chances of winning.

once again you do not understand disc flight and do not understand how a stiffer disc can be beneficial. knowingly using such a disc means you are cheating. and like I said this is not what this thread is about, had you read it. It is about how compliance can be achieved or altered. Really read the ENTIRE thread.

If you flip your disc rather than mark it with a mini it gives no competitive advantage yet it is a rules violation. It isn't cheating.

Yes and no. You could flip the disc to alter the line of play slightly to give yourself a slight advantage. And often when most people flip they actually give themselves another inch or so. Which matters.

Being Holier Than Thou about rules does not make you a more ethical player, just a Rules Nazi. Go play in the lower Amateur divisions and call every foot fault you see. You will be a real popular fellow and you can brag about how much you improved the game.

Like I have told you multiple times, read the thread. No one hear is going to call this rule. Insulting someone because of your own ignorance is not a good way to go about learning anything. The difference between ADV/Pro vs Int/Rec is that the players already KNOW the rules and do their best to ABIDE by them.
I have a feeling your that person who blows up after one or two bad shots and then drags the whole group down with your whining and mooning.

I am so proud of you. :thmbdown:

why thumb down me? this is the one thing you have issue with over that whole post. amazingly shallow are we not?

 

[bthoma1]

Safety really????? How many of you have seen someone get hit by a disc??? Ok a few. How many of you have seen that person taken away in an ambulance??? Ok, about none. Really. Whatta Joke. None of this matters.

I have seen someone taken away in an ambulance, but your apparently know everybody

 

[nohr]

But your solution has to not make any more work for the PDGA nor cost the PDGA, its members and manufacturers anything to implement it. Ready, Go!

The offical PDGA stance has no impact on
1) PDGA
2) Manufacturers

But all the impact lays on its members to ensure we have legal equipment. Sooooooooo the PDGA is laying down ground rules which itself can't abide by.

Now let me put stickers on discs also!

 

[tbird888]

The offical PDGA stance has no impact on
1) PDGA
2) Manufacturers

But all the impact lays on its members to ensure we have legal equipment. Sooooooooo the PDGA is laying down ground rules which itself can't abide by.

Now let me put stickers on discs also!

Stickers are something members can control. Flex and weight of a disc during manufacturing is not.

 

[nohr]

You are getting wrapped around the axil by the last thing I said. The thing is the PDGA is seeking a solution that costs nothing and doesn't impact

1) PDGA
2) Manufactureres
3) Members (players)

the offical solution of "Players are responsible for using only legal discs in play" puts all of the impact on the members. So they are putting out ground rules in which they are not abiding by.

 

[tbird888]

I agree with the other points in your post. I kind of figured that you were exaggerating with the stickers, but I wanted to point out that expecting members to control equipment variables we have no control over (that should be handled at the manufacturing level) and purposely ignoring/breaking the rules are two different discussions.

I would love to be able to put stickers on my discs. I hate inking them (OCD) and don't unless I am competing in a sanctioned event where it's a rule. What kills me is that I don't think I've seen anyone in my area throw anything I carry except Wizards. Even then, I haven't seen another G9i Wizard, let alone one that is as beat up as mine.

 

[Curtis_Valk]

........the offical solution of "Players are responsible for using only legal discs in play" puts all of the impact on the members. So they are putting out ground rules in which they are not abiding by.

I've read this thread with interest and there are many valid opinions. Here's mine: I don't agree with the above because I think that individual responsibility is the best way to handle most things in life including this. Now, I know many of you are howling that there should be changes in the manufacturing industry and I'm not going to argue against that, mainly because it just ain't gonna happen so it's a moot point. There is also a snowball's chance that the PDGA is going to change its stance.

Now, you can discount my opinion because I haven't been playing for long and don't play tournaments, or just because I'm an older guy and may think differently than the younger "up comers". But I think if you get called for an out of spec disc and suffer a penalty, you've got nothing to whine about and nobody to blame but yourself.

There,
Curtis

 

[jeverett]

I've read this thread with interest and there are many valid opinions. Here's mine: I don't agree with the above because I think that individual responsibility is the best way to handle most things in life including this. Now, I know many of you are howling that there should be changes in the manufacturing industry and I'm not going to argue against that, mainly because it just ain't gonna happen so it's a moot point. There is also a snowball's chance that the PDGA is going to change its stance.

Now, you can discount my opinion because I haven't been playing for long and don't play tournaments, or just because I'm an older guy and may think differently than the younger "up comers". But I think if you get called for an out of spec disc and suffer a penalty, you've got nothing to whine about and nobody to blame but yourself.

There,
Curtis

Curtis, be honest.. are you really going to go and weigh (with a properly-calibrated scale) and flex test every one of your discs now?

 

[Curtis_Valk]

Curtis, be honest.. are you really going to go and weigh (with a properly-calibrated scale) and flex test every one of your discs now?

I have weighed all of my discs because I'm anal that way, although not on a certified scale. I don't throw any max weight discs at this stage of my game though. I have not done the flex test and to be honest, it makes me cringe to think of taco-ing one (not that I haven't done that already by hitting a tree trunk right off the tee pad). Still, if I were in that situation and got called I think I'd take it like a man and not try to blame the "system" when it was within my means to avoid the penalty.

Curtis

 

[jeverett]

I have weighed all of my discs because I'm anal that way, although not on a certified scale. I don't throw any max weight discs at this stage of my game though. I have not done the flex test and to be honest, it makes me cringe to think of taco-ing one (not that I haven't done that already by hitting a tree trunk right off the tee pad). Still, if I were in that situation and got called I think I'd take it like a man and not try to blame the "system" when it was within my means to avoid the penalty.

Curtis

Yes, but you aren't in that situation.. you don't play tourneys. I mean no offense, but you wrote up a big post about "personal responsibility", when ultimately your post really boils down to "this doesn't affect me, but here's what you other people need to do".

Plus, the potential isn't for this to be a 'getting called' once in a blue moon kind of thing.. technically, a player could be called on it at any time. It could happen to every single player at every single event for every single round.. right now it's just the culture of disc golf that keeps it from happening, but the simple reality is that if enforcement of these rules comes down to individual players, eventually event TD's are going to be required to verify discs more and more, until ultimately TD's are simply going to have to verify every disc in every players' bag before every event. That's an absurd scenario for any TD to have to deal with.

 

[Curtis_Valk]

Yes, but you aren't in that situation.. you don't play tourneys. I mean no offense, but you wrote up a big post about "personal responsibility", when ultimately your post really boils down to "this doesn't affect me, but here's what you other people need to do".

No offense taken and you're absolutely right it doesn't affect me as of yet, hence my disclaimer (discount my opinion for any of the above reasons). I'm glad that you weighed in with your points as everything is food for thought.

You could be right, this might be a future "can of worms" just waiting to burst open. So far though, I haven't seen a single viable solution come forward.

Curtis

 

[beereakfast]

No offense taken and you're absolutely right it doesn't affect me as of yet, hence my disclaimer (discount my opinion for any of the above reasons). I'm glad that you weighed in with your points as everything is food for thought.

You could be right, this might be a future "can of worms" just waiting to burst open. So far though, I haven't seen a single viable solution come forward.

Curtis

I'm in your boat in that I only play occasional local doubles rounds where this doesn't matter, but...
It seems to me that what really needs to happen is a more reasonable standard that doesn't involve folding discs nearly in half, thereby ruining them.
Possibly a lighter flex test with a standard jig,. on a scale Where at 5 or 8lb's There has to be an acceptable ratio.
It curves X ammount while suspended by the outer edges of the rim, It passes. Keep the curvature under the destructive level. Seems rather simple to me.
I know any test will still be subject to interpretation but there needs to be a standard that's easier to enforce, with minimal cost.

This has been good reading. Makes a person think.

 

[Widdershins]

I was discussing the idea of weighing discs at tournaments with another Pro yesterday. Since it is not done at tournaments (short of the Japan Open with the 150 class limit) we agreed it would be unfair to test just individual disc(s) from just one or some players. In order to be fair, IF a TD wanted to do it, there should be a particular procedure for it. For example:

* Announce the testing procedure ahead of time.

* Have THE testing device available for at least a week ahead of the tournament. There should only be ONE testing device. It must be accurate.

* Have available for sale at the tournament, discs which have been tested and certified as legal

* Have every cashing Pro, as they walk off the course after the last round, submit their entire bag for testing. DQ any player carrying an illegal disc.

None of this is to say I am in favor of testing as my prior posts on this topic make clear. However since the custom of tournaments is to NOT TEST discs, is would be unfair to just spring it on players. It should be started with the Pros simply to save time. The word will filter down quickly.

I have played hundreds of tournaments yet I do not own a digital scale and have never weighed any of the discs in my bag. Many of my discs have custom stamps so do not even have the "PDGA Approved" stamp on them.

There is no easy way to test the flexibility standards of discs as the method used by the Technical Standards Committee is low tech, only minimally accurate and may harm or change a disc's flight pattern.