-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
Marshall Street PDGA Rules Letter
- Thread starter smyith
- Start date
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Exactly? Your argument sure seems to be about the consistency of a company's product being in direct proportion to the size of the manufacturer...
Innova's been in this business almost as many decades as MVP has years. Their product is inconsistent because they don't care to improve their processes, not because they're a small company.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
That's a full time employee and having a machine designed and built for the process. Then you have to train your maintenance staff how to repair and calibrate it. You also have to pay to power it. It's a lot more than you think.
If MVP ever starts producing discs at Innova's volumes, well see how well that alleged consistency holds up.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Innova has never been consistent. MVP already has those measures built into their manufacturing process. Being an injection molding company prior to venturing into discs, I don't think that's a valid argument in this case.
That's a faulty assumption. The big manufacturers to my knowledge generally weigh a few out of each run and just assume every specimen in that batch is that weight, then write or sticker that number on them. If they actually weighed each one, retailers like Marshall Street wouldn't spend all their time reweighing and correcting them.
Halcón
Free At Last
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2012
- Messages
- 12,038
I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying you can't compare the stuff you see at the store to disc golf discs.
You are right about Innova though. That was my point earlier. The manufacturers CAN be consistent. They choose not to be.
And despite their consistency issues Innova is still far and away the #1 manufacturer. Until MVP approaches Innova's volume, the jury is still out on that. Like Vibram, they are still a niche competitor in this game.
Some of you are just going to have to concede that for every disc golfer up getting up in arms about lax equipment standards and crapping their diaper about it on disc forums, there are probably dozens of others who's opinions range from acknowledging there's a problem, but are figuring that any cure is worse than the disease to flat out not giving a rat's ass because they don't play tournaments.
If the manufacturers could find a way to please your minority, and do it in a manner that didn't affect their bottom line, they'd probably be on it already. The fact that they haven't probably means that doing so would affect their bottom line.
Last edited:
Because unlike pumping outs gobs of imperfect runs to meet the demand, there's no money in consistency.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
What does being #1 have to do with anything? They've been around longer than anyone else and have more exposure in the marketplace. That has absolutely nothing to do with manufacturing consistency.
MVP will not turn into Innova because they are nerd disc golfers who just happen to own an injection molding plant. They have the ability to control the type of plastic blend they receive, unlike every other manufacturer. They are also able to sweat the little details with which only only a nerd disc golfer would concern themselves. It's why Legacy isn't at that level. They are disc golfers, but someone else who doesn't understand what a simple tweak will do to a disc's flight is molding their discs.
I agree with your second and third paragraphs though. It's one thing to build those checks into your manufacturing process from the beginning. It's a whole other issue to implement them later.
MVP, again! How many molds do they have now compared to a few years ago? How long does it take them to release a new mold? They're making sure it's absolutely right before putting their name on it.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2008
- Messages
- 4,039
totally false assumption. see Scrapfish's comment. They make a blend that is "suppossed" to weigh in *blank* range. They maybe will test a handful in the batch to see if they are correct.
impossible to control and regulate. how are you supposed to tell the difference? Base it off of stamp? then you want every TD to carry a booklet to identify runs by stamp. can't tell by feel of plastic. How would you handle that? All I would have to do is remove the stamp and throw a dye on there.
Instead of enforcing an arbitrary dumb rule, just get rid of it. It's all based on nothing of substance. Until the pDGA want to actually do some studies that prove their stance they shouldn't be punishing people for breaking their "rules". I mean 8.3g/cm.....so dumb.
I do, honestly, like the idea of establishing a tolerance. 2g is probably too much though, manufacturers will abuse it like they already do.
There is also the issue of disc plastic being porous. Why? Because they are porous they can absorb water thus becoming heavier than they actually are. DaveD talked about it a few years ago regarding weight issue complaints. And it does make perfect since.
Halcón
Free At Last
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2012
- Messages
- 12,038
I should have said, besides MVP. They have been industry leaders since the beginning.
Scarp, MVP will be consistent, no matter how big they get.
Sure, the manufacturers could invest a bunch of money in making their processes more consistent, then pass that along to the consumer, but that's going to drastically reduce their sales. Why would a noob choose a $12 base plastic disc that's "consistent" over the $7 base plastic disc? I don't see any of the big manufacturers making the effort to become more like the small niche manufacturers, especially when their current business practices seem to be working fine.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2008
- Messages
- 4,039
I had to take some industrial engineering courses when I was in college (boring s***!). It is not that costly to adjust your production to add one extra step of checking a discs actual weight. And would only take 1 new employee to do so. You figure 10sec to weigh and write on a disc, so that means in an 8 hr day 1 person could handle 2880 discs, I highly doubt even Innova puts out that many a day. And considering what they charge wholesale now, for that minor cost increase I would see no need to raise the MSRP on discs.
Halcón
Free At Last
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2012
- Messages
- 12,038
Again, I think the assumed cost of consistency is being overblown here.
Edit: Smyith beat me to it.
Like people say, it won't be an issue until people make it an issue. And at some point, someone's going to make it an issue. We're going to be having this exact same discussion the first time someone decides to take a trophy by getting his opponent stroked after seeing a 176g driver in their bag.
It won't happen at a B or C tier, because the tournament directors at that level almost never- and shouldn't be expected to- have the appropriate measuring instruments available. When it happens, it's going to be good and public, and the worst part is, there's no happy ending at that point. Best case scenario, and wow, would I not like to be the TD at this event, is that the player accused ends up getting stroked, losing payout/place, and goes all George Brett. I certainly would, but at least you can fall back on "a rule's a rule, even if it's not well enforced." (Doesn't mean it's a good rule, or a well-written rule, or a practical rule, or what have you.)
The worst case scenario, at a major event the TD tells the competitor that he's unable to verify discs. The TD looks awful, the player looks awful for making the request (and getting nothing for it), the winner sits under an unresolvable controversy over whether s/he was using illegal discs, and unlike the prior example, there isn't even an unsatisfactory resolution to the problem. I hope that's on DiscGolfPlanet, because that is going to be some great watching.
The simplest place to solve this rules problem would be at the factory; however, you can't make max weight discs without making overweight discs, and players demand max weight discs. What do you do with the overweight discs then? An indelible stamp which read "Invalid for PDGA Play", or some candied-up version of that expression, might work, but at the same time, that would lower the value of those discs while increasing the amount of X-Out discs. That's cost to the manufacturer, and it comes back to you. It'd cost their bottom line to deal with a problem that doesn't exist right now, and the costs of ignoring that problem are pretty insubstantial to them.
The next place to solve it would be at the storefront level, but they have absolutely no incentive to deal with the problem, as it currently isn't a problem. Players don't demand that they segregate their overweight discs- and why would they? You might as well tell the majority of your customers "these discs are illegal in tournaments, so don't buy them and let them sit in our inventory." Dealing with the issue at the storefront level costs them money with no perceptible gain.
That leaves the problem at the very bottom of the chain- tournament directors and players, the people least equipped to deal with it. It's not an issue right now, because no one has had reason to make it an issue; but let's wait until the first time someone reports that 176g D4 because they think it'll net them an extra $500.
It's a perfect storm of people having reasons for ignoring a possible problem, and the only person who wants to deal with the issue right now is that hypothetical person trying to gain payout- and the rules are on his side as written. It's understandable why everyone in disc golf is hoping that hypothetical person never becomes an actual one.
It won't happen at a B or C tier, because the tournament directors at that level almost never- and shouldn't be expected to- have the appropriate measuring instruments available. When it happens, it's going to be good and public, and the worst part is, there's no happy ending at that point. Best case scenario, and wow, would I not like to be the TD at this event, is that the player accused ends up getting stroked, losing payout/place, and goes all George Brett. I certainly would, but at least you can fall back on "a rule's a rule, even if it's not well enforced." (Doesn't mean it's a good rule, or a well-written rule, or a practical rule, or what have you.)
The worst case scenario, at a major event the TD tells the competitor that he's unable to verify discs. The TD looks awful, the player looks awful for making the request (and getting nothing for it), the winner sits under an unresolvable controversy over whether s/he was using illegal discs, and unlike the prior example, there isn't even an unsatisfactory resolution to the problem. I hope that's on DiscGolfPlanet, because that is going to be some great watching.
The simplest place to solve this rules problem would be at the factory; however, you can't make max weight discs without making overweight discs, and players demand max weight discs. What do you do with the overweight discs then? An indelible stamp which read "Invalid for PDGA Play", or some candied-up version of that expression, might work, but at the same time, that would lower the value of those discs while increasing the amount of X-Out discs. That's cost to the manufacturer, and it comes back to you. It'd cost their bottom line to deal with a problem that doesn't exist right now, and the costs of ignoring that problem are pretty insubstantial to them.
The next place to solve it would be at the storefront level, but they have absolutely no incentive to deal with the problem, as it currently isn't a problem. Players don't demand that they segregate their overweight discs- and why would they? You might as well tell the majority of your customers "these discs are illegal in tournaments, so don't buy them and let them sit in our inventory." Dealing with the issue at the storefront level costs them money with no perceptible gain.
That leaves the problem at the very bottom of the chain- tournament directors and players, the people least equipped to deal with it. It's not an issue right now, because no one has had reason to make it an issue; but let's wait until the first time someone reports that 176g D4 because they think it'll net them an extra $500.
It's a perfect storm of people having reasons for ignoring a possible problem, and the only person who wants to deal with the issue right now is that hypothetical person trying to gain payout- and the rules are on his side as written. It's understandable why everyone in disc golf is hoping that hypothetical person never becomes an actual one.
Last edited:
pineappletrees
Eagle Member
You're making this harder than it should be. If the disc says Non PDGA compliant, then it should be illegal to use. If it says PDGA Compliant or PDGA Approved(Pre-weight war) It would be legal.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Acetone nullifies your oversimplification.
Smyith was talking simply about weight, and I think he underestimates the number of discs Innova makes anyway. Consistency in the way some were discussing it refers to getting exact plastic blends, domes, PLHs etc., and that really would require huge capital investments, including temperature and humidity control for the entire facility and much more expensive material costs.
pineappletrees
Eagle Member
No it doesn't. Good luck with that ghost stamp!
Similar threads
