(More) League Advice Needed

[jrawk]

Just say no to the am-scam!

 

[BgWvDave]

I have no problem with the so called "Am Scam". as long as the am's prize value exceeds their entry I don't care where any left over money goes. and neither should the am's.

 

[BgWvDave]

Also to keep everyone focused on the real deal here. Mr. Nemmers is running a brand new PDGA League.

 

[DiscWazzu]

The league I play in is one handicapped division. It seems to work really well in terms of payouts (30-50$ to the winner) and we get a really good turnout.

 

[zgmc]

If you want people to play better then a handicap league is the way to go IMHO. We did that at Flaherty Park last year and while I won't say it was a resounding success I will say it sure motivated ME to play better. Without getting into the math (which isn't that hard) the concept is, whoever beats the average of their last three scores the best in terms of percentage is the winner. Sure people could have losing streaks to pad their average and then on the fourth round go crazy but that did not happen as far as I can tell. On any given night you never know who is going to have the hot round so it made sense to always try to play the best you can regardless of how good or bad the current average is.

The beauty of this set up was that a newbie could be competitive with the seasoned vet. It leveled the playing field nicely. In fact, I think it was slightly harder for the good players to win but a few of them did. The spread of who won was fairly evenly distributed among players of all levels. I'm hoping everyone is willing to go with that set up again this year.

Thats basically how it works here. The best player isn't the one in first place. Its the player who is consistently beating their average. There are no divisions. There are also a lot of sponsors, at least 20 prizes for CTPs, and longest putts every week. These prizes range from discs, to gift certificates for local restaurants. There is a running ace pool, and a cash ctp each week as well. Average 50 players per week in the winter.

 

[zgmc]

Also to keep everyone focused on the real deal here. Mr. Nemmers is running a brand new PDGA League.

I didn't know it was sanctioned. I'm guessing handicapped leagues are forbidden?

 

[Cgkdisc]

PDGA leagues can be handicapped. PDGA only cares about getting raw scores for player ratings. How players are grouped or ranked for weekly or final league awards is totally up to the League Director.

 

[TAFL]

Taking money from the ams to pad the pro payout would be a good way to get me to avoid that league.

 

[Nemmers]

What I'm gathering is that there's no real fair way to have two divisions in a league.

By that logic, the only way to make it even is to make a one-division league, where everyone plays against everyone (regardless of skill) for one big prize fund.

Which begs the question: How does that encourage lesser-skilled players to participate?

 

[DiscWazzu]

You handicap it. In my handicapped league we have different people winning all the time.

 

[Nemmers]

You handicap it. In my handicapped league we have different people winning all the time.

As a ball-golfer of course I've heard of handicaps, but how does one apply that to disc golf? If everyone has a rating I'd understand, but not everyone does. How do you handle new players?

I'm curious, to be sure, but at the same time I'm a purist. Ball golf or disc golf, handicaps are for the handicapped. If your score can't hang on its own then hit the field, practice putting, improve and try again when you think you can compete. I can't stand hand-outs and am way too proud for "gimmes."

 

[DiscWazzu]

You get a handicap after 3 rounds of 18 which is based on the average. We have winter and summer handicaps because scores can differ a bit in the snow. The way its set up is that if you are playing better than your average you stand a decent chance of cashing regardless of your current ability. This encourages players of all skill levels to not only join but to focus more on their own game than what their opponents are doing. Everyone seems to like it and I have never heard anyone suggest changing the format.

 

[DavidSauls]

What I'm gathering is that there's no real fair way to have two divisions in a league.

By that logic, the only way to make it even is to make a one-division league, where everyone plays against everyone (regardless of skill) for one big prize fund.

Which begs the question: How does that encourage lesser-skilled players to participate?

That's only true if you start with the assumption that better players should win more money.

If you view the different divisions (skill levels) as a competition (for points, or simply the pleasure of competition), and the payouts as just a betting pool, then it should be OK that a group of 4, playing winner-take-all, will win less than an entirely separate group of 10, playing winner-take-all with their money.

But if this is a problem, different entry fees will solve it, or at least soften it. You can have a bigger payout for Pros than Ams; the difference between this, and your system, is that the bigger payout will come from the Pros' money, not the Ams'.

 

[BgWvDave]

What I'm gathering is that there's no real fair way to have two divisions in a league.

By that logic, the only way to make it even is to make a one-division league, where everyone plays against everyone (regardless of skill) for one big prize fund.

Which begs the question: How does that encourage lesser-skilled players to participate?

Matt,
I def. think there is. But in my opinion this would be a proper edit to your statement to make it more true
"there's no real fair way to have two divisions in a league where you pay Am's money.

 

[TAFL]

I'm curious, to be sure, but at the same time I'm a purist. Ball golf or disc golf, handicaps are for the handicapped. If your score can't hang on its own then hit the field, practice putting, improve and try again when you think you can compete. I can't stand hand-outs and am way too proud for "gimmes."

Well, then, count on having very few people in your league. You'll only get those who think they have a chance to win it all, so you're eliminating ams from the equation entirely. Unless you can recruit a bunch of new pros to show up, I suspect the existing pros will grow bored with it quickly and attendance will be spotty.

The fair way to do it is to have pros play for pro money and ams play for am money. If you want the pros to win more money, recruit more pros or kick some money out from your paycheck every week.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Part of the problem is the reasonable expectation that our events are or should be designed to reward all players the better they play. If the bottom pros with the highest scores shoot better than the lowest scoring Ams who win, even if it's merch, there's the perception that it's somehow not fair. That's part of the impetus towards Ams only playing for trophies.

The reality is if our events were seen as they really are with independent groups pooling their ante for play among themselves without comparing winning scores and payouts between groups, it would be similar to what happens among buddies on the ball golf course. You go to a ball golf course and one group might be playing with a $100 bucks ante and another playing for quarters and some for nothing at all. The ante in these groups and the potential winnings have no bearing on the differences in skill among the groups. In other words, a 25 handicapper might win the big money group with a 95 and the 5 handicapper win the group playing for a milkshake with a 75. Should the 5 handicapper demand to win some of the money in the other group because he beat their winner by 20?

 

[superium]

I will suggest if you are taking money out, make sure it goes where you say it is and people are aware of it. We have a local league where 5 out of $10 goes to this and that yet no one ever sees any progress/improvements so no one including myself do not attend this league.

 

[Nemmers]

Well, then, count on having very few people in your league.

Why though? What you say below doesn't match my personal experience thus far. Then again, I've only had one league even so far, so there's that....

You'll only get those who think they have a chance to win it all, so you're eliminating ams from the equation entirely. Unless you can recruit a bunch of new pros to show up, I suspect the existing pros will grow bored with it quickly and attendance will be spotty.

That last is a really slippery slope. "Recruit[ing] a bunch of new pros to show up" sounds an awful lot like advertising by making the league as attractive as possible, which is what I'm trying to do. If I even suspected that the only players I'd get would be "those who think they have a chance to win it all" I wouldn't have started the league in the first place. I did it because I saw a need that wasn't being fulfilled because the amount of local players we have weren't being satisfied by the number of competitive disc golf events in the area. In short, I did it because I felt that the players in my area wanted more competition...money be damned.

The fair way to do it is to have pros play for pro money and ams play for am money.

That's what I did. And on Monday I paid the 2nd place Am more than I paid the winner of the Open. Seemed pretty backwards to me.

If you want the pros to win more money, recruit more pros or kick some money out from your paycheck every week.

Yes, that occurred to me. I want to -- wait for it -- #growthesport, but I'm the sole person shouldering not only the financials, but also the workload associated with running the league. Call me a selfish bastard if you want, but I don't think $1.00 from every entry is too much to ask.

 

[dysmike]

Sooner or later, you'll find that people that are simply donors.. tire of donating money to the 'pros'. Personally, I'd give any league that payed out in this manner.. a miss.

 

[Nemmers]

Sooner or later, you'll find that people that are simply donors.. tire of donating money to the 'pros'. Personally, I'd give any league that payed out in this manner.. a miss.

How about one division leagues? Everyone plays against everyone, regardless of rating or skill, for one entry fee. Would you give a league that "payed" out in this manner.. a hit?

(Just messing with you on that last. I'm a left-brained word-fetishist.)