[Question] Original Plastic?

[vlaminck]

I recently spoke to a veteran of the sport who told me he only throws discs in their original plastic(the plastic it was designed for/first released in). For example, the Innova TL is currently only in star plastic. He told me the wraith was designed in pro plastic, and he told me a few others as well.

I'm sure most people have thrown disc models in different plastics, and noticed a difference, but is this just preference?

Out of curiosity, if only for historical knowledge, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a list of discs and the plastic they were designed for. If such a list doesn't exist and anyone would like to share knowledge of any discs they know I'll be very grateful, and will start to compile a list that I could post somewhere for others who might be curious about this.

Thank you,
Steve

 

[JR Stengele]

I second that.

 

[Disc Golf Greg]

I'm pretty sure the Gazelle, and the Valkyrie started out in DX plastic.

 

[Disc Golf Greg]

More... I know most about Innova Discs...

- Monarch started out in Champion Plastic
- An obvious one... The Pig started out in Pro Plastic
- The Max is only made in Star Plastic.
- The X-Caliber original mold was in Star
- The Cheetah started out in DX and is only made in DX.
- I've been throwing the Viper for years and can tell you that it started out in DX.
- The Shark started out in DX
- Stingray has been around a long time and started out in DX.
- You can only throw The Wolf in DX.

 

[vlaminck]

Thank you Disc Golf Greg.

I've gathered info from the websites of both Innova, and Discraft, and have made a spreadsheet using Google Docs. I added to it all of the discs that are only available in one plastic, assuming that they didn't discontinue any lines. I've also added the info from Disc Golf Greg.

It is published here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pk46YBYGdLDWrRW9M5sO_AQ

 

[Rbuzz9]

Did he explain why he only threw original plastics?
Is the school of thought that since the disc was first designed in such plastic that it will fly better in that particular plastic?

Did the person have lots of older molds that would have been created when only limited plastics were available? Seems like that would be the case.

i would think within the past few years a company would probably create a disc it would be able to produce in all of it's plastics if it wanted to. So whatever gets released first is basically the company's whim. So what gets released first doesnt mean a whole lot.

i havent been around very long- but lately it seems like Innova has been releasing some discs in one plastic: Xcaliber (star) Monarch (champion) Pig (pro) - but they offer most of their molds in DX

Discraft mainly releases their Drivers in Z or ESP/FLX - but seems to have fewer and fewer molds in D plastic

 

[Disc Golf Greg]

Great vlaminck! That is a very good resource...

Anyone reading it, check for errors. I assume it's pretty much all correct, but who knows for sure.

 

[Disc Golf Greg]

Did he explain why he only threw original plastics?
Is the school of thought that since the disc was first designed in such plastic that it will fly better in that particular plastic?

Did the person have lots of older molds that would have been created when only limited plastics were available? Seems like that would be the case.

i would think within the past few years a company would probably create a disc it would be able to produce in all of it's plastics if it wanted to. So whatever gets released first is basically the company's whim. So what gets released first doesnt mean a whole lot.

i havent been around very long- but lately it seems like Innova has been releasing some discs in one plastic: Xcaliber (star) Monarch (champion) Pig (pro) - but they offer most of their molds in DX

Discraft mainly releases their Drivers in Z or ESP/FLX - but seems to have fewer and fewer molds in D plastic

Yes that is true... but I'm pretty sure sometimes they alter the mold a little bit to make it fly correctly for the particular plastic. I can tell you I prefer the flight of a DX Shark to the mold in any other plastic. Now that may be simply because when I started DX was the only choice but who knows.

 

[garublador]

Do you want the original plastic for each disc, or what plastic is closest to the original that is produced now? The TL came out before Star even existed and I'm pretty sure the Panther is much older than any type of Champion plastic, too.

 

[Disc Golf Greg]

I believe the Panther was made in DX originally. I do not know about the TL. I'll try to find that out though.

 

[vlaminck]

Do you want the original plastic for each disc, or what plastic is closest to the original that is produced now? The TL came out before Star even existed and I'm pretty sure the Panther is much older than any type of Champion plastic, too.

That's a good point. I didn't even think about plastics that aren't around anymore. It would be interesting to know the original plastic.

Did he explain why he only threw original plastics?
Is the school of thought that since the disc was first designed in such plastic that it will fly better in that particular plastic?

Did the person have lots of older molds that would have been created when only limited plastics were available? Seems like that would be the case.

i would think within the past few years a company would probably create a disc it would be able to produce in all of it's plastics if it wanted to. So whatever gets released first is basically the company's whim. So what gets released first doesnt mean a whole lot.

i havent been around very long- but lately it seems like Innova has been releasing some discs in one plastic: Xcaliber (star) Monarch (champion) Pig (pro) - but they offer most of their molds in DX

Discraft mainly releases their Drivers in Z or ESP/FLX - but seems to have fewer and fewer molds in D plastic

He said that he threw original plastic only because that's what it was designed for, and that when different plastics cool differently causing slight differences when using the same mold. I'm not sure if they make different molds for each plastic or not, but I thought his reasoning was interesting.


Also, should I change the panther to DX then?

 

[Disc Golf Greg]

Yes, The Panther is only listed in Champion, and DX. The Panther was around before the Champion days for sure. So it's gotta be DX.

 

[vlaminck]

Yes, The Panther is only listed in Champion, and DX. The Panther was around before the Champion days for sure. So it's gotta be DX.

Done. Thank you.

 

[Rbuzz9]

He said that he threw original plastic only because that's what it was designed for, and that when different plastics cool differently causing slight differences when using the same mold. I'm not sure if they make different molds for each plastic or not, but I thought his reasoning was interesting.

I like traditionalist approach. Tho i think there is a lot of benefit to using an older disc made with a durable plastic.


does anyone notice a big difference between star and champion discs of the same mold?

 

[Jungle Tim]

Born of Pro plastic?

Something else to throw in the mix is how discs have been born from moulds and plastic. Take the SL for example, it original was just a star fire in Pro Plastic. I believe that Pro Plastic is considered in some cases to give superior glide / turn. Firebird - FL and Star Fire - SL are obvious as the firebird and starfire are not available in pro.

does anyone have any ideas about the TeeBird to TL birth. The Teebird is not available in pro and neither is the TL but hey are both available in star....

jungle

 

[t i m]

Something else to throw in the mix is how discs have been born from moulds and plastic. Take the SL for example, it original was just a star fire in Pro Plastic. I believe that Pro Plastic is considered in some cases to give superior glide / turn. Firebird - FL and Star Fire - SL are obvious as the firebird and starfire are not available in pro.

does anyone have any ideas about the TeeBird to TL birth. The Teebird is not available in pro and neither is the TL but hey are both available in star....

This is where some confusion can come into the system because of how Innova has named their discs on some of these molds.

The original Teebird was the TL mold (released in DX), but it was called, simply, "Teebird" -- it later was released in the original CE (Champion Edition) plastic, back ~2001, and that was followed by some CE Teebirds that were marked "TX" -- or Teebird-X.

The X-denoted a more overstable version (with a lip on the rim) of the regular Teebird (no lip on the rim). Both rim formations had the same hotstamp on the front and only the letters were different on the back. When you ordered a disc, you didn't know which you would get.

Sometime a couple of years ago, as they were changing around plastics (doing away with CE, moving to other premium plastics), they changed which disc was the standard "Teebird." What used to be the TX (with the lip), is now the standard "Teebird." What used to be the standard Teebird (no lip) is now called the TL.

There are similarly confusing stories for some of the other most popular Innova discs, namely the Eagle and the Firebird. So whomever was saying they "only throw discs in their original plastic" and has the "TL" in Star plastic is missing their history. They should be throwing the TL in DX plastic, because that's how the mold was originally created -- it was just called "Teebird" instead of TL back then.

Fortunately, no matter what the name, pretty much every Eagle, Firebird, or Teebird I've ever picked up (except some of the Pro Line Teebirds) have been great discs and worthy of a place in the bag.

 

[Disc Golf Greg]

Yeah I love the Firebird and Teebird... I throw them mainly in Champion plastic but I have a DX Teebird which I'm trying to get nicely beat in.

 

[JR Stengele]

I have a KC Pro Cheetah, so it might have started DX but HAS been made in other plastics. I wonder why they stopped making it in pro?

 

[Three Putt]

He said that he threw original plastic only because that's what it was designed for, and that when different plastics cool differently causing slight differences when using the same mold. I'm not sure if they make different molds for each plastic or not, but I thought his reasoning was interesting.

Here is an example for you. The Discraft Cyclone. It was originally introduced in Tournament plastic, which is no longer available. It is a lower grade plastic, kind of between D and X. It shrunk a lot during cooling, so the Cyclone came out as a fast small diameter driver. In '93 it was as fast as anything on the market. In Innova-speak, it is very comparable with a Gazelle.

Being a popular mold, when the high density plastics came out Discraft ran the Cyclone in Z plastic. Z plastic is much denser and does not shrink like the Tournament plastic did. So in tournament plastic the diameter of the Cyclone is 21.3 cm. In Z plastic the diameter is around 21.6 cm. Plus the density of the plastic makes the disc behave more overstable. As a result, the Z Cyclone in Innova-speak is very comparable to a Viper.

So just by switching the plastic, you can dramatically alter what kind of disc you are producing. Unfortunately, the manufacturers use the same description for the discs in every sort of plastic, so you can end up buying a disc like a Z Cyclone and wonder what you are doing wrong since it behaves nothing like the description. It's part of the trial and error of choosing your disc.

As was mentioned, Innova tried to address this with the X and L molds, but in the process have confused a bunch of people by selling more than one disc under one name. Anybody who has thrown a Champ Starfire and a Pro Starfire can tell you how bad that can get. But I'm not sure there is a good answer. Innova sells something like 55 discs in four plastic lines, something like 112 different discs + CFR discs and OOP disc like the Pro TeeBird L that are still around...and that is just one manufacturer. With the number of disc we are talking about on the market today it is going to be confusing, no matter what the manufacturers do.

 

[Riley]

Which discraft plastic is closest to innova star plastic?