[Question] Original Plastic?

[ERicJ]

Which discraft plastic is closest to innova star plastic?

ESP.

ERic

 

[Riley]

Thanks.

 

[DWill]

I just did some quick research on the Wayback Machine for Innova.

Their first listing for April 15, 1997 list these discs:
CHEETAH, RAVEN, GAZELLE, BARRACUDA, SCORPION, VIPER, WHIPPET, SHARK, STINGRAY, PANTHER, COBRA, XD, ROC, MORAY, AVIAR PUTT/APPROACH, BIRDIE PUTT/APPROACH, POLECAT, PIRANHA and ZEPHYR

I think it's safe to assume these were all made in DX plastic. More research could probably reveal when all molds and plastics came out within a reasonable degree of accuracy. I'm sure the same thing could be done for Discraft, et al.

 

[ERicJ]

I just did some quick research on the Wayback Machine ...

WHOA! That's the coolest web utility I've seen in a long time.

ERic

 

[Three Putt]

I just did some quick research on the Wayback Machine for Innova.

Their first listing for April 15, 1997 list these discs:
CHEETAH, RAVEN, GAZELLE, BARRACUDA, SCORPION, VIPER, WHIPPET, SHARK, STINGRAY, PANTHER, COBRA, XD, ROC, MORAY, AVIAR PUTT/APPROACH, BIRDIE PUTT/APPROACH, POLECAT, PIRANHA and ZEPHYR

I think it's safe to assume these were all made in DX plastic. More research could probably reveal when all molds and plastics came out within a reasonable degree of accuracy. I'm sure the same thing could be done for Discraft, et al.

If you look up the approved disc list on pdga.com (which I am to lazy to link to) it gives the approval date for each disc. Some of it is fubar as it has some mistakes, especially on a few older molds. However, it is probably 98% accurate.

 

[RustyP]

This guy who throws only "original plastic" must have a really hard time replacing discs, because the base-plastic blend that most disc manufacturers use today isn't the same as it was 10-15-20 years ago (in some cases, like Innova, it isn't even the same blend they used 2 years ago). If you can get your hands on an old San Marino Roc and a current re-issue San Marino Roc, the differences will be very apparent. Same disc mold in different blends of the "same" plastic = slight differences in flight characteristics.

Same goes for premium plastics too...for example, Innova Champion plastic has at least 4 distinct blends that I have experience with: matte/opaque plastic that seems indestructible (original CE plastic), pearly/swirly/opaque plastic (eg - first run Orcs and Monsters), clear/glassy/slick plastic, and the current opaque plastic that isn't as durable as the original (eg - 12x Champ Teebirds).

 

[t i m]

Same goes for premium plastics too...for example, Innova Champion plastic has at least 4 distinct blends that I have experience with: matte/opaque plastic that seems indestructible (original CE plastic), pearly/swirly/opaque plastic (eg - first run Orcs and Monsters), clear/glassy/slick plastic, and the current opaque plastic that isn't as durable as the original (eg - 12x Champ Teebirds).

Good points. The new opaque champion plastic is pretty poor, IMHO, compared to the run before it (clear)...

but somewhere in there, you missed a fifth, distinct blend that appeared after the opaque CE plastic but before the Champion plastics -- there were some translucent, tacky, squishy, grippy, taffy-ish runs of CE plastic that were very different from other champion (or CE) runs.

Of course, adding a fifth distinct blend supports your point. And add to that the countless variations within any of those five broad categories, and you're talking about dozens of different plastic blends just across one manufacturer and one line of discs.

 

[RustyP]

You are correct about the 5th type...forgot all about that. I've got a 153 CE Valk at home in that gummy plastic. Who knows, there might be more than that...

The fact that there are SO MANY variations between runs and plastic is just one of the many reasons why developing general skills is MUCH more important than learning to control a particular disc.

 

[chris deitzel]

i will help out with this list later but for today.


The TL. Actually the Teebird came out first in DX plastic back in 1998. It was realeased at the same time as the Eagle, Firebird and then the Valkyrie.

The TeeBird was then made in Special Edition plastic in 99 or 2000. The Special Edition discs were the first chance to get a TL. THey made both the T and the TL in Special Edition plastic.

Special Edition did not last long, and it was replaced with the Pro Line plastic Teebirds, once again the T and the TL mold. Pro Line was basically the same plastic as the Special Edition plastic. Then came the Champion Edition TeeBirds. Which then switched to Pro Line Teebirds for about 5 months (which was actually Champion plastic. That was the end of the original CE.

With that confusion, the pro line name was switched, and the discs were now named Champion.

The TL was last run in CE plastic in 01 -02. There were also CFR TL's released from 02- 04 I believe.


How was that for confusing. I pretty much know the order of plastic for all innova discs.

 

[chris deitzel]

The original Teebird was not the TL version. Also the original DX Teebird had a different stamp then the one you see these days. It had a bird sitting with its wings closed. NOt even close to what it looks like now.

And you could order either TL or T teebirds when they began making them in Special Edition plastic.

 

[chris deitzel]

Cheetah was made in DX first. Then there was the Special Edition Cheetah with the ring stamp like the 8x KC pro discs. Whippets, Gazelles were also made in this special edition plastic. This special edition plastic was quite different than the SE plastic used for the Teebirds made a few years later. I believe these Cheetahs in the SE plastic were from the 7x run of KC discs.

Then the Cheetah was made in Pro Line plastic, but not the pro line we have now. It was made in the PRo Line that was made just after the CE discs were discontinued. Which is actually the same as Champion plastic would be now.

The very first Cheetahs had the large INnova Star stamp on them, and they said POGA approved. Misprinted, should have read PDGA.

 

[chris deitzel]

Panther was a DX disc first for sure. It was retooled to make the Gremlin. The panther came out in the early 90's. Has also been made in Champion plastic and I think that is all.


Stingray came in DX back in 1987 or 1988. It actually had 7 rings on the bottom of the disc molded in the plastic. They were very domey and had a big nipple in the center on the bottom of the disc. Super stiff and awesome. Same as the old Cobras, and Hammers. There may have been more 7-ring discs also.


What other discs do you want to know about?

I've got some good resources playing with 2 players with PDGA numbers lower than 1000 for the last 15 years has given me some good knowledge of the history of discs. If there is anything in particular you'd like to know, post it. Maybe I will make a list when I'm bored.

 

[DeafDiscGolfer]

I'm fascinated with your knowledge of history and I do like history!

I fell in love with JLS because it worked so well for me for long time. Then got the dyed QJLS and it worked a lot better than the DX JLS. I tried to throw the non-dyed QJLS and it seems doesn't do well for me. Does the dyed have any effects to QJLS? It seems feel more stiffer in that way. Maybe its all in my head...

Same thing for my also other favorite disc which is Champion Cobra. I prefer throw it dyed than non-dyed for the same reason as QJLS. Weird, huh?

Anyway, I'm interested to know more about the history of JLS and its rating number that have been changed so many times. I remember when I first got the early JLS release and it was marked as 1.0, I think.

Now I see today's JLS marked as 1.9 or 1.15 or whatever. Why is that? Is that the numbers of runs or flight rating or something?

Also, is it true that some certain Innova DX discs cannot be made into Champion or Star plastics due to its molding that seems to work best with DX plastic instead of other kinds? Or its just by popular demands?

I wonder why Cheetah or XD discs weren't made into champion production yet. But I did have CFR Star XD and it wasn't the same flight pattern as DX XD does. Interesting... maybe needs a lot of break-ins in that star plastic to meet the DX XD's standard. I do also have 10X KC Pro Cheetah which can be the closest thing to champion type so far. Innova doesn't make any more of Pro Cheetahs, of course... But its flight were pretty good as its DX's with some bit of break-ins. I haven't get my hands on the CFR Star Cobra yet but I do know that Champion Cobras is becoming OOP but the DX version is still out in the market everywhere.

Ever wonder what the Star Cheetah or Champion XD would feel like...you know? I would grab couple of Champion XD's the first thing it comes out. I wouldn't mind to buy a nice one or two CFR Star Cheetah if there's one someday...

So, Fire Away! Educate Us!

 

[garublador]

Anyway, I'm interested to know more about the history of JLS and its rating number that have been changed so many times. I remember when I first got the early JLS release and it was marked as 1.0, I think.

Now I see today's JLS marked as 1.9 or 1.15 or whatever. Why is that? Is that the numbers of runs or flight rating or something?

It's the run number.

 

[vlaminck]

First of all, I rearranged and republished the spreadsheet here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pk46YBYGdLDUix5Z4A_ixHA


Plastics that are no longer around as well as discs that have been re-introduced, such as the classic roc, are confusing. I'm not sure how I should go about this list anymore. A couple ways to do it would be to list the disc lines in the plastic that
1) is closest to the original (for purchasing reasons).
2) is the original (for history knowledge).

I think the best thing to do would be to list original plastic, but then have a guide off to the side that says what current plastic is closest to the original. My biggest concern is the history of plastic might be more info than this spreadsheet can handle. Since I'm just starting this thing, I think now would be a good time to ask everyone: how would you like to see it organized, and what info would you like included/excluded? I'm open to any and all suggestions. I'm also willing to open the publication of it so anyone can edit it.

 

[JR Stengele]

Why did Innova get rid of CE Plastic when it seems that it flew the best? I still have 3 CE Valks, 1 CE T bird, 1 CE Firebird, and a special additon CE Aviar. They are all amazing and am sad that you can only find them at a high price these days. Any ideas besides maybe the cost?

 

[Three Putt]

Why did Innova get rid of CE Plastic when it seems that it flew the best? I still have 3 CE Valks, 1 CE T bird, 1 CE Firebird, and a special additon CE Aviar. They are all amazing and am sad that you can only find them at a high price these days. Any ideas besides maybe the cost?

The reason given was the same reason given any time a plastic goes OOP...the supply of the raw materials went away, so they can't make it.

The rumor was that CE was incredibly hard to mold up and resulted in a crazy-high percentage of rejects (thus the high number of X-out CE discs out there.)

 

[Three Putt]

Why did Innova get rid of CE Plastic when it seems that it flew the best? I still have 3 CE Valks, 1 CE T bird, 1 CE Firebird, and a special additon CE Aviar. They are all amazing and am sad that you can only find them at a high price these days. Any ideas besides maybe the cost?

BTW, the "CE discs are the best discs EVER" idea is directly opposed to the rational behind this thread, as no discs were originally released in CE. All of the CE discs like the Valk, Eagle, TeeBird, Leopard, Firebird, etc., came out originally in DX.

 

[RustyP]

Some disc golf conspiracy theorists think that the CE plastic was so durable that players didn't have to buy back-ups, thus causing Innova's sales to drop considerably, which is why they stopped producing it...

...then a reptilian overlord infiltrated the Innova board of directors and the rest is history

 

[adam423]

First of all, I rearranged and republished the spreadsheet here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pk46YBYGdLDUix5Z4A_ixHA


Plastics that are no longer around as well as discs that have been re-introduced, such as the classic roc, are confusing. I'm not sure how I should go about this list anymore. A couple ways to do it would be to list the disc lines in the plastic that
1) is closest to the original (for purchasing reasons).
2) is the original (for history knowledge).

I think the best thing to do would be to list original plastic, but then have a guide off to the side that says what current plastic is closest to the original. My biggest concern is the history of plastic might be more info than this spreadsheet can handle. Since I'm just starting this thing, I think now would be a good time to ask everyone: how would you like to see it organized, and what info would you like included/excluded? I'm open to any and all suggestions. I'm also willing to open the publication of it so anyone can edit it.

The shark is listed as a fairway driver on there... should be mid