PDGA survey

[biscoe]

Laura- do you know how long the survey is set to remain available? Thanks.

 

[DavidSauls]

She's got all of the justifications to say what she says on the topic. As opposed to cisgender men.
I might not necessarily like what she says, or how she says it.
But she's absolutely got the right to do so, and to be heard, because she is at the very least potentially harmed in this.
Cisgender men are not harmed in this.

Do cisgender men with wives, girlfriends, or daughters who play, have rights to opinions?

What about cisgender men who are members of the organization and take an interest in the direction of the sport?

I'll concede that those directly affected have a greater interest, but not with the dismissive attitude that others shouldn't express opinions.

I mean, I have strong opinions about the USDGC, and there's zero chance the course design will ever affect me.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Laura- do you know how long the survey is set to remain available? Thanks.

No, I don't.
Sorry.
All I know is which questions were in it, and who sent it, when.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Do cisgender men with wives, girlfriends, or daughters who play, have rights to opinions?

What about cisgender men who are members of the organization and take an interest in the direction of the sport?

I'll concede that those directly affected have a greater interest, but not with the dismissive attitude that others shouldn't express opinions.

I mean, I have strong opinions about the USDGC, and there's zero chance the course design will ever affect me.

With saying what I did, I am not being dismissing anyone's opinion.
I am not in the position to dismiss anyone either.
I am reacting to someone stating that because she is an amateur and only 747 rated she'd better focus on her own game.
Which *is* dismissive. For all the wrong reasons.

Yes, by proxy, cisgender men are potentially harmed, not directly.

Opinions do matter. Absolutely.

Back to the general discussion again.

The most-heard opinion uttered by cisgender men is "bio men do not belong in FPO" and is repeated on end.
To what extent do those opining add to the discussion?
And how many add to the discussion meaningfully?

And yes, anyone calling a transgender woman a bio man is not just inherently transphobic, but also scientifically reductive in its oversimplification, far beyond it being useful.
And no, I am not saying you are saying that.

 

[robdeforge]

Are you talking the players who sign up?
They'd simply be "members" of this Association 501,(c)(4), see https://www.pdga.com/documents/pdga-bylaws article 2

I think at this point I have reached my limit of knowledge/understanding for what information would be legally permissible to collect at the time of registration. Most of my knowledge about this is related to an employer-employee relationship, so if that's not the case with the PDGA then I'm not sure how much I understand anti-discrimination protections in this context.

 

[DavidSauls]

And yes, anyone calling a transgender woman a bio man is not just inherently transphobic, but also scientifically reductive in its oversimplification, far beyond it being useful.

Ignorance of science is a curse on our world, far beyond this subject.

I would have been one of those people, 5 years ago. My education came neither from a sports story, nor anyone I know, but some science stories I stumbled across.

Now, I see it (as applied to sports) as a complex issue, and have somewhat mixed feelings about it. I certainly don't side with the simplistic and derisive arguments against transwomen playing in female divisions -- but I find some of the arguments in favor of their participation to be dismissive in their own right. Ultimately, I'm glad this falls in someone else's lap to weigh and sort out.

 

[TurnedOver]

She's got all of the justifications to say what she says on the topic. As opposed to cisgender men.... Cisgender men are not harmed in this.

With saying what I did, I am not being dismissing anyone's opinion.
I am not in the position to dismiss anyone either.
I am reacting to someone stating that because she is an amateur and only 747 rated she'd better focus on her own game.
Which *is* dismissive. For all the wrong reasons.

Yes, by proxy, cisgender men are potentially harmed, not directly.

Opinions do matter. Absolutely.

Back to the general discussion again....

Wow! Spectators matter. Without spectators we would have little money for touring FPO players to earn. This is a spectator sport.

The majority of FPO spectators are cisgender men. Can you please explain again why they're not harmed in this?

And, please don't be so dismissive of this point. Can you explain it without the snarky "Back to the general discussion again".

 

[Arisugawa]

Do cisgender men with wives, girlfriends, or daughters who play, have rights to opinions?

This is my opinion, but not in that context, no. Because cisgender men who say "as a husband with a wife" or "as a father with daughters" are using the women and girls in their lives a shield for their own biases.

If someone honestly feels that transgender women shouldn't be in women's divisions, at least own up to your own feelings on the matter. Trying to white knight one's position by putting their daughters, girlfriends, and wives in front of them doesn't lend any weight, legitimacy, or authenticity that opinion.

I really wish all the people I see in comment threads would this response would just own their position instead of trying to make themselves appear noble for holding it.

For context, this is the exact same crap I used to hear in high school and college when people were discussing the problems of lesbians sharing hetero women's spaces and athletics, and I'm both tired and furious that this justification is always used when policing other women.

Wow! Spectators matter. Without spectators we would have little money for touring FPO players to earn. This is a spectator sport.

The majority of FPO spectators are cisgender men. Can you please explain again why they're not harmed in this?

And, please don't be so dismissive of this point. Can you explain it without the snarky "Back to the general discussion again".

Wow! Spectators matter! Without spectators, we would have no money for professional baseball players to earn. This is a spectator sport.

The majority of baseball spectators are white men. Can you explain again why they aren't harmed by Jackie Robinson's presence?

That's why.

There are times when concessions are made in the name of finance and media, but it should never be in the name of prejudice, fear, or disgust.

 

[biscoe]

If the PDGA were to enact a policy barring trans women from playing in female divisions as best I can tell (from discussion with a lawyer friend) it would be illegal in a number of states as well as a number of countries outside the US. Does this matter to anyone at all?

Also- I again encourage any PDGA members who are pro-inclusion but have not filled out the survey to do so. Your voice matters in this and assuming that someone else will take care of it is not going to work. While they are not calling this survey a referendum the feeling I get is that it is at least in part. Failure to take part in the process gives the advantage to those who do- that is partially how we wound up with Trump in the White House.

 

[DavidSauls]

This is my opinion, but not in that context, no. Because cisgender men who say "as a husband with a wife" or "as a father with daughters" are using the women and girls in their lives a shield for their own biases.

If someone honestly feels that transgender women shouldn't be in women's divisions, at least own up to your own feelings on the matter. Trying to white knight one's position by putting their daughters, girlfriends, and wives in front of them doesn't lend any weight, legitimacy, or authenticity that opinion.

I really wish all the people I see in comment threads would this response would just own their position instead of trying to make themselves appear noble for holding it.
.

That's a Catch-22, isn't it? If they speak up as their own opinion, they're told it doesn't matter because it doesn't affect them. If they speak up on behalf of women they know, they're told it doesn't matter, because they're not speaking for themselves.

 

[DavidSauls]

If the PDGA were to enact a policy barring trans women from playing in female divisions as best I can tell (from discussion with a lawyer friend) it would be illegal in a number of states as well as a number of countries outside the US. Does this matter to anyone at all?
.

There are countries outside of the U.S.?

Just kidding. It's a good point. And though some dismiss the IOC, I think the PDGA board is wise to give weight to what they and other sports organizations do, rather than trailblaze their own path. It's not a conclusive argument, but doing so does put us in compliance with a wider world.

 

[BionicRib]

That's a Catch-22, isn't it? If they speak up as their own opinion, they're told it doesn't matter because it doesn't affect them. If they speak up on behalf of women they know, they're told it doesn't matter, because they're not speaking for themselves.

This is what a lot of people are tired of.

 

[Arisugawa]

That's a Catch-22, isn't it? If they speak up as their own opinion, they're told it doesn't matter because it doesn't affect them. If they speak up on behalf of women they know, they're told it doesn't matter, because they're not speaking for themselves.

So....what you're saying is that not only is white knighting one's opinion done to shield one's biases, but also to shield their biases from the potential criticism of having that bias voiced.

I see.

Regardless. Whatever someone says in response to your opinion is irrelevant. If you aren't prepared to be told your opinion doesn't matter, don't voice it. If you genuinely feel as you do, at least own it, and be ready for the potential pushback.

 

[dmoore1998]

The only opinions which matter when it comes to questions of fairness are those who aren't directly impacted by the decision. Everyone impacted is simply imparting their own bias to achieve the outcome which benefits them most, not the outcome which is the most fair.

Also, the only opinions which matter are from those directly impacted by a decision, not those with no skin in the game.

This is what we do when we have no intelligent argument to make...we just tell everyone who disagrees with us, or who might potentially disagree with us, that their group's opinion is invalidated for some reason. Everyone gets an opinion, and none of them are wrong. Some of them are stupid, but they aren't wrong. Opinions aren't incorrect, statements of fact can be incorrect.

 

[DavidSauls]

So....what you're saying is that not only is white knighting one's opinion done to shield one's biases, but also to shield their biases from the potential criticism of having that bias voiced.

I see.

Regardless. Whatever someone says in response to your opinion is irrelevant. If you aren't prepared to be told your opinion doesn't matter, don't voice it. If you genuinely feel as you do, at least own it, and be ready for the potential pushback.

Now I'm dizzy.

 

[aphilso1]

If you aren't prepared to be told your opinion doesn't matter, don't voice it.

There's a big difference between being told your opinion is wrong vs being told your opinion doesn't matter. We all should be OK with having our opinions challenged, and potentially changing our minds when presented with information to support an alternate viewpoint. In contrast, defaulting to the "your opinion doesn't matter" argument is both intellectually lazy and discriminatory. You have decided that based on the way someone was born, that their opinion isn't worth hearing. Ironic, eh?

 

[Arisugawa]

There's a big difference between being told your opinion is wrong vs being told your opinion doesn't matter. We all should be OK with having our opinions challenged, and potentially changing our minds when presented with information to support an alternate viewpoint. In contrast, defaulting to the "your opinion doesn't matter" argument is both intellectually lazy and discriminatory. You have decided that based on the way someone was born, that their opinion isn't worth hearing. Ironic, eh?

That isn't what I said.

I said that saying "as father with daughters" or "as a man with a wife" as justification for one's opinion is problematic. You're free to have your opinion. But, in my opinion, trying to white knight that opinion by putting the women in your life in front you is a poor attempt at lending that opinion legitimacy.

 

[dmoore1998]

Many people DO seem to feel that adding context to an opinion is problematic. They don't want to know if your opinion is based on being a parent, or a spouse, or whatever else. They just want you to say "this is my opinion" in a short, concise statement so they know whether to calls you names because they disagree or circle-jerk your shared opinion.

 

[Steve West]

Do cisgender men with wives, girlfriends, or daughters who play, have rights to opinions?

What about cisgender men who are members of the organization and take an interest in the direction of the sport?

...

Only if their player rating is higher than whoever they are giving their opinion to.

We must never violate the most fundamental tenet of disc golf.

 

[BionicRib]

This is my opinion, but not in that context, no. Because cisgender men who say "as a husband with a wife" or "as a father with daughters" are using the women and girls in their lives a shield for their own biases.

If someone honestly feels that transgender women shouldn't be in women's divisions, at least own up to your own feelings on the matter. Trying to white knight one's position by putting their daughters, girlfriends, and wives in front of them doesn't lend any weight, legitimacy, or authenticity that opinion.

I really wish all the people I see in comment threads would this response would just own their position instead of trying to make themselves appear noble for holding it.

For context, this is the exact same crap I used to hear in high school and college when people were discussing the problems of lesbians sharing hetero women's spaces and athletics, and I'm both tired and furious that this justification is always used when policing other women.


.

I guess I see where you are coming from and there may be some truth to this, but I would argue that those you speak of are in the minority. Personally I take most comments on social media with a grain of salt. I do not use those comments to label everybody who may disagree with me.