[Vibram] Rubber vs Plastic (Speed/Glide)

[ShoopDaGoose]

Okay, I've bagged most of the Vibram line-up for a couple months now, and I LOVE how they will stick where you throw them (which is why they will stay in my bag), but I have a question for you guys with some experience with Vibram rubber and other discs out there...

Comparing the Vibram rubber (x-link compounds) to plastics from other companies...(I'm mainly referencing Innova star and champion, and Discraft Z plastic)...I feel the rubber doesn't fly as fast or glide as much. Comparing my champion boss and the medium solace, the solace does not seem to fly as fast.

Can anyone relate to or state any differences they've experienced between rubber and plastic? more specifically in regards to speed and glide...?

 

[in4d]

I can relate, the Vibram stuff is different. They have always seemed to require more snap and speed in order to make up for the lack of glide and get the same distance compared to plastic molds. The rubber feels much slower and drops faster with more of a "dead" feeling to me but this can be desirable in certain circumstances for accurate placement shots.

But there's also the opposite of the spectrum, like some Lat64 and Westside molds that have a tremendous amount of glide compared to most discs.

IMO,
More Glide = Less Control, Less Predictable and More Carry
Less Glide = More Control, More Predictable and Less Carry

Go too far in either direction and bad things can happen, there's a happy medium for majority of circumstances, although sometimes you want a disc with a bit more/less glide depending on wind and how much control is needed. If you are trying to park a basket within range, you probably want less glide so it sits down more predictably. If you are trying to crush a disc as far as possible and your not worried about placing the shot at any particular distance then more glide will generally carry it farther.

 

[Qikly]

I too have generally found that Vibram discs seem less glide-y than their counterparts, though I wouldn't automatically make the leap to attributing that difference to their different materials (though that might be the cause - I just don't know). It's a relative statement: the Lace has tremendous glide, but it still has a feeling of needing a little extra oomph to me, as in4d described, considering the kinds of lines it flies.

Discs like the Lace and Trak seem to me to strike a nice balance between glide and control: the more D I've gained (still a moderate 350'-375'), the more I've come to prefer this balance to the hella-glide Latitude and Westside discs have. It's personal preference, to a point.

 

[money 21]

I am carrying a all vibram right currently but have been playing for years and have discs from most of the bigger companies. I would say vibram has less glide but not by much. You don't seen any 6 glides in the vibram but I would give the lace, o-lace, trak, and unlace a rate of 5 in the glide department. what you really loose with vibram is skipping distance. That took some getting used to.

 

[slowplastic]

I know this isn't the most experienced post, but because of that it's kind of more "blind" and gut feeling. The only Vibram I've thrown is a Trak, and I threw it back to back with my River that I am very used to. The flew exact same and ended up within 10' of each other at 350'+. The River is known as a glidey disc and I felt like the Trak had the same characteristics. I was very impressed.

 

[ODRB]

Agree on the Trak being glidey. Very glidey. Floaty even.
But the rest of the lineup doesn't float quite the same way.
No comment on the pros and cons of glide, of which there are both.

 

[pmorgan1214]

I have been throwing vibram 8 weeks and have a complete all rubber bag. When i look at glide with Vibram and started to first throw them i was generally suprised. I see great potential and glide in Vibram.

The way i look at glide is by the way a disc stays up in the air with minimal wind causing it to hold longer in the air. The best gliding discs on the market are achieved with a balance anhyzer to hyzer ratio. Hence a champion tern is a 12/6/-2/2 and a star tern is a 12/6/-4/2.
When i look at breaking down the glide of Vibram i will put the best gliding disc to the least.

Lace- best glide in the lineup for Vibram. I would give a medium broken in lace an easy 6 glide.

O-Lace- amazing glide but you have to force it on an anhyzer. it will go for days though

Trak- suprising distance out of a speed 7 disc. i have hit perfect drives with hyzer flips for about 400 feet.

Unlace- For a high speed driver its weird. Its too understable to get great glide. Although for weaker arms could be the best glide they can obtain.

Solace- Another weird one. Super overstable when thrown but if you get it light enough and throw it on a big S curve anny flex shot you can easily hit 450 feet depending on your power leval.

Ascent- Its a hit and miss with this disc. Large flight #'s are overstable, small flight #'s are more stable to understable.

Ibex- of the mid ranges the best glide of the mid ranges.

Obex- stable but will fade some.

Summit- understable putter great glide

sole- of the stable putters it has the most glide.

VP= super overstable putter

Ridge- weirdest of all the putters. when the disc loses spin it dies. never seen a disc on the market like this.

 

[ThinAir]

I can relate, the Vibram stuff is different. They have always seemed to require more snap and speed in order to make up for the lack of glide and get the same distance compared to plastic molds. The rubber feels much slower and drops faster with more of a "dead" feeling to me but this can be desirable in certain circumstances for accurate placement shots.

But there's also the opposite of the spectrum, like some Lat64 and Westside molds that have a tremendous amount of glide compared to most discs.

IMO,
More Glide = Less Control, Less Predictable and More Carry
Less Glide = More Control, More Predictable and Less Carry

Go too far in either direction and bad things can happen, there's a happy medium for majority of circumstances, although sometimes you want a disc with a bit more/less glide depending on wind and how much control is needed. If you are trying to park a basket within range, you probably want less glide so it sits down more predictably. If you are trying to crush a disc as far as possible and your not worried about placing the shot at any particular distance then more glide will generally carry it farther.QUOTE]

^^This...for all but distance drives.

I only like the feel of Vibram for putters, personally.

 

[TrustYourRubber]

I can relate, the Vibram stuff is different. They have always seemed to require more snap and speed in order to make up for the lack of glide and get the same distance compared to plastic molds. The rubber feels much slower and drops faster with more of a "dead" feeling to me but this can be desirable in certain circumstances for accurate placement shots.

But there's also the opposite of the spectrum, like some Lat64 and Westside molds that have a tremendous amount of glide compared to most discs.

IMO,
More Glide = Less Control, Less Predictable and More Carry
Less Glide = More Control, More Predictable and Less Carry

Go too far in either direction and bad things can happen, there's a happy medium for majority of circumstances, although sometimes you want a disc with a bit more/less glide depending on wind and how much control is needed. If you are trying to park a basket within range, you probably want less glide so it sits down more predictably. If you are trying to crush a disc as far as possible and your not worried about placing the shot at any particular distance then more glide will generally carry it farther.QUOTE]

^^This...for all but distance drives.

I only like the feel of Vibram for putters, personally.

Agree with In4D about control versus glide.

I can pick up a Westside/Latitude disc, and it'll glide farther than a Vibram of the same speed. However, for control and grip the rubber is superior.

Best Vibram discs for glide (beginners): Ibex, unlace (hyzer-flipped or brand new), Sole, Trak (beat-in)
Best glide (intermediate): Lace, Trak (brand new), O-Lace (anhyzer-flex), Ascent (beat-in)
Best glide for experienced players: Solace (anhyzer-flex), O-Lace, Lace (hyzer-flipped), Ascent (brand new)

The Ibex is for all skill levels and powers down really well for approach shots. The theory behind the Ibex was to have a disc that you can really huck, and it will hold that line. Holds all the lines out there. Same is true for Trak, but the Trak beats-in a little more than an Ibex.

In general, faster discs beat-in faster, so they'll get more flippy (or understable) faster.

 

[thePiRaTE]

I threw a few Vibram molds and had my longest drive ever with a Lace, the thing glided forever. I won't go into how many more times I sprayed it out right trying to do it again. Personally, I'm not aware of how a material alone could add or reduce glide if shape and weight remained a constant. It would come down to molds and the ability to consistently release them (both batch and physically chucking wise).

Some may point out that base plastic glides more than premium, but I would speculate it has more to do with how a one-shot disc forms up in cooling and how that varies between materials. Release speed being equal, more stable = sooner to ground.

 

[Ted Bratton]

I am always appalled by these rumors of Vibram discs gliding less well and Latitude discs gliding more well, it is so silly! How business breaking it must be for poor Vibram lol, such a nice company. What they must be willing to do to have Latitude 64's reputation for glide. I have thrown a lot of Vibram and Latitude and have experienced nothing of the sort (of course...), because the rumors are ridiculous. Too many times I have heard something along the lines of "I stopped throwing my ridge because Vibram discs don't glide well." My eyes invariably roll. Frankly, the very thought seems so obviously false to me. Glide has nothing to do with the name of the material but rather the shape of the disc, it's overstability/understability, aerodynamics, gyroscopics, surface texture, density, and flexibility. These rumors are especially prevalent in newer and more gullible players who adhere to flight numbers. Latitude will release a disc saying it is a speed 14, glide 7, turn 0, fade 2 and in reality it literally has the same speed and stability of a really beat up wraith. The more understable a disc becomes, the more it will glide. Of course your ridge glides less than your aviar, your aviar looks like you took sandpaper to it and your ridge is rhyno overstable! Of course your river glides more than your teebird, your river is quite understable relative to your fresh teebird. Of course your truth has more glide than your buzzz, your truth is less overstable AND faster. Glide is so very closely correlated to speed and, more importantly, understability. Your ultrastar glides for days with the flick of a wrist because you can throw hyzer rollers with it if you threw it like your wraith. The more overstable a disc is the more it wants to fight to get to the ground. The more understable a disc is the more it fights to gliiide and not slow down and hyzer out. Even if you throw it slower. Of course your VP and ridge don't glide very far they're very overstable and slow. Try a sole, summit, ibex, trak, or lace for god's sake! There is nothing strange about them unless you find very durable, awesome looking, great flying rubber golf discs strange. They are 100% normal disc golf discs. If you don't like the feel of the material as much as classic Innova style discs I understand that completely. Make sure you feel a worn Vibram disc though, they feel so much grippier than fresh ones obviously. I sincerely wish people would wise up and stop telling every newbir that Vibram discs suck lol! After that maybe we could take the next step to teach new players that X disc is not better than Y disc. They are all dead equal in flight quality, the just feel and fly differently than one another because of usually subtle differences build quality, speed, stability, feel, durability etc.

 

[Kodachrome]

Glide has nothing to do with the name of the material but rather the shape of the disc, it's overstability/understability, aerodynamics, gyroscopics, surface texture, density, and flexibility.

Soooo...surface texture and density are not related to the material?

I get what you are trying to say though. However, a ridge is nowhere near a rhyno. And the euro molds aren't all glidey because they have turn. You are making the mistake you think think everyone else is making as soon as you start talking along that line.

 

[ShoopDaGoose]

They are 100% normal disc golf discs. If you don't like the feel of the material as much as classic Innova style discs I understand that completely. Make sure you feel a worn Vibram disc though, they feel so much grippier than fresh ones obviously. I sincerely wish people would wise up and stop telling every newbir that Vibram discs suck lol!

I haven't quite understood the distaste for Vibram either, but within my 15 Vibram discs, two have deformities. They fly fine, but that paired with the excessive flashing on every Vibram disc I have has made me question Vibram's quality as a whole. That being said...I'm not getting rid of them out of my bag. Their flights, durability, feel, and resistance to skip are valued in my play-style.

It's unfortunate that there isn't a standardization for flight ratings. Because most, if not all, of us have been victim to assuming flight ratings were comparable between brands, but most of us have also learned that that isn't true.

This may belong to another thread, but...
Should flight ratings be standardized? maybe by the PDGA...?

 

[slowplastic]

It's unfortunate that there isn't a standardization for flight ratings. Because most, if not all, of us have been victim to assuming flight ratings were comparable between brands, but most of us have also learned that that isn't true.

This may belong to another thread, but...
Should flight ratings be standardized? maybe by the PDGA...?

The frustrating thing I find is that even when other companies adopt the 4# ratings like Innova, they don't always have the same idea. And you only know that after throwing a bunch of their plastic.

For example a HSS=0 for a Trilogy disc is not zero like an Innova zero, for the most part (unless it's marketed as a beefcake mold). Brands also adjust their numbers when a new disc comes in the line and they want to redistribute how their existing molds are perceived, to make "room" for the new mold among the numbers.

Speed ratings seem pretty much hype/marketing too but we all know that (talking about warp speed numbers 13/14) and that one is easier to tell. Just feel the rim width and see if it feels good basically.

 

[BrotherDave]

The flight #s are arbitrary for all companies. Get 2 TBs, one will fly 0, 2 and the other might fly -.5, 2.5. Marginal difference but noticeable enough thanks to PLH, etc.

Vibram ain't particularly glidey. I like that about their putters (particularly for putting) but other than the Lace, UnLace and maybe the Trak, they tend to be underwhelming on glide. I think what kind of hurts them is that their drivers miss a lot of disc golfers that fall under or between their two speed ranges available. A lot of n00bs struggle to get Ascents and Traks up to speed (so they won't see much glide) and a ton of golfers would benefit from a distance driver between a Trak and a Lace.

 

[Ted Bratton]

Soooo...surface texture and density are not related to the material?

I get what you are trying to say though. However, a ridge is nowhere near a rhyno. And the euro molds aren't all glidey because they have turn. You are making the mistake you think think everyone else is making as soon as you start talking along that line.

yeah I see where you're coming from too, but I do disagree.

The density of Innova type plastic blends and Vibram style rubber blends can obviously be manipulated however they like by changing the composition using metal salts and other plastics/rubbers/materials. Most Vibram discs have very classic, standard designs like the sole, ridge, obex, etc., etc. that facilitate equal amount of glide as rival companies.

As far as surface texture goes the vibram surface texture will facilitate less drag/more glide than a polished champion type texture.

As far as the euro molds go, I frankly just disagree. It's been my experience many, many times now that any extra perceived glide was because the disc was more understable than the newer and/or gullible player believed it to be. Not that there is anything wrong with that, we all need specific discs that work the best for us individually, obviously. Let me give a typical example of what I'm talking about. My excited buddy tells me that he read online from flight ratings (all of them suck), third party flight guides (all of them suck), and youtube/forum reviews (by sucky reviewers) that his new saint pro is like a slightly more overstable teebird, yet even though it is more overstable, it has better glide. Now obviously by feeling the saint pro and laying them next to each other on a table, it is easy to sense that the saint pro has similar dome and is slightly faster. He can not make either disc turn, and because he has imprecise form he can not really throw the same shot twice to see which one is actually more overstable. So I rip them both a few times on identical lines and the teebird turns a little each time, the saint pro turns quite a bit more each time. Obviously it turned out that his particular saint pro is clearly more understable than his particular teebird, and that is why he perceives more glide. When Lat/DD/Westside/anyone else puts out flight numbers that say a disc is faster and more overstable than it really is it really ****s with a lot of players. On a similar note I threw my buddy's "speed 15" (yes he believes it l0l) missilen the other day, and the thing was nearly a nukos. Muuuch more overstable than his fresh pop top S/DS destroyer, a little less than a stiletto. You all can believe Dave's sales pitches in his most recent in the bag if you want, but I knew it was bull for the moment I clicked on the link.

 

[BCDan]

yeah I see where you're coming from too, but I do disagree.

The density of Innova type plastic blends and Vibram style rubber blends can obviously be manipulated however they like by changing the composition using metal salts and other plastics/rubbers/materials. Most Vibram discs have very classic, standard designs like the sole, ridge, obex, etc., etc. that facilitate equal amount of glide as rival companies.

As far as surface texture goes the vibram surface texture will facilitate less drag/more glide than a polished champion type texture.

As far as the euro molds go, I frankly just disagree. It's been my experience many, many times now that any extra perceived glide was because the disc was more understable than the newer and/or gullible player believed it to be. Not that there is anything wrong with that, we all need specific discs that work the best for us individually, obviously. Let me give a typical example of what I'm talking about. My excited buddy tells me that he read online from flight ratings (all of them suck), third party flight guides (all of them suck), and youtube/forum reviews (by sucky reviewers) that his new saint pro is like a slightly more overstable teebird, yet even though it is more overstable, it has better glide. Now obviously by feeling the saint pro and laying them next to each other on a table, it is easy to sense that the saint pro has similar dome and is slightly faster. He can not make either disc turn, and because he has imprecise form he can not really throw the same shot twice to see which one is actually more overstable. So I rip them both a few times on identical lines and the teebird turns a little each time, the saint pro turns quite a bit more each time. Obviously it turned out that his particular saint pro is clearly more understable than his particular teebird, and that is why he perceives more glide. When Lat/DD/Westside/anyone else puts out flight numbers that say a disc is faster and more overstable than it really is it really ****s with a lot of players. On a similar note I threw my buddy's "speed 15" (yes he believes it l0l) missilen the other day, and the thing was nearly a nukos. Muuuch more overstable than his fresh pop top S/DS destroyer, a little less than a stiletto. You all can believe Dave's sales pitches in his most recent in the bag if you want, but I knew it was bull for the moment I clicked on the link.

I'll trade him my Missilen for his Missilen( I am guessing he has regular Opto).
I have a decodye, thrown 5 times, flies like seasoned destroyer.

 

[mm1315]

I've used Vibram for years and they have just as much glide as anyone else. The issue is there are more inconsistencies between their discs. I have a lightweight Trak that's as stable if not more stable than my brand new ascent, then I have one max weight ascent that's less stable than any other disc I have. The only merit in the "they have less glide" argument is with some of the more rubbery/no firm runs you can watch them flexing in the air, absorbing what I would assume being some of the power and not cutting through the air as well.