"Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

[iacas]

I'm a golf instructor, and I'm the Director of Instructor Development for 5 Simple Keys®.

What we've done with 5SK® is break down the true commonalities of the game's greatest players and called them keys. If you can achieve more keys, you'll improve as a golfer. All of the Keys are not only achievable (i.e. everyone can get better), but are measurable as well.

They are:

1. Steady Head
2. Weight Forward
3. Flat Lead Wrist
4. Diagonal Sweetspot Path
5. Clubface Control

We can measure all of those things, and improving at them is achievable by all golfers of any skill level. The more "keys" you have, the more you have in common with the game's best players, and thus, the better you're likely to be.

These commonalities are pretty widely applied. The way we've defined things ("steady" being "relatively still" not "completely unmoving" and with wider allowances for drivers versus mid-irons), there are virtually no exceptions at the top levels of the game. None. If you can name more than a few exceptions to one of your Keys, it's not a true Key.

So that got me thinking (via this thread): what are the "keys" or commonalities among the game's best in disc golf?

I'll start off. I think that "weight forward" is one of them. I haven't seen ANY pros throwing off their back foot. I don't have the pressure plate readings, but many seem to reach about 90% pressure under their front foot by the time the disc is near their pec and 100% pressure soon after. These numbers would vary slightly for stand-still throws, but does everyone agree "weight forward" is a "Key" to disc golf? Why or why not?

Borrowing from Key #4 and Key #5 in golf, I think "Nose Angle Control" and "Wing Angle Control" are two (though perhaps they could be condensed into one). The game's best players control the nose angle and wing angle to a very small degree for the selected throw.

Grip isn't a commonality. "Straight Line Delivery" isn't one (see Dan Beto's delivery path for the first exception that springs to mind) either.

So, what are the other "Keys"?

P.S. Forehands are likely different enough too that they might be excluded, as are thumbers and tomahawks.

 

[kutz167]

I think one possibility may be spine angle. If you look at the angle of the top pros' spines just before release, they telegraph the plane that the disc will be released on. This translates into shaping the shot. From what I have seen, pretty much all "good" or better players do this, too.

 

[joegraham]

I think a common key to any full speed throw has to be eliminating off axis torque. The disc must be released smooth and the disc must be in the position you're pointing to at release to maximize its distance and designed flight path (accuracy and consistency). I don't know how to describe how to release the throw to beginners or how to analyze an OAT throw, but to me it's a real key to being consistent. I learned this slowly transitoning from airbouncing lids to pulling a golf disc straight through. The Whammo one and only key comes to mind and it may be the one key to rule them all: "Flat flip flies straight."

This is a great topic and it would be great to get opinions and try to boil it down for simplicity.

 

[jtreadwell]

Gotta have something about Snap in there! Without snapping the disc at the end you're not going to get too far and it's an issue many beginner to intermediate players struggle with. Someone else that has a better technical understanding of this can probably state it better.

 

[GripEnemy]

^^^Snap is such an arbitrary concept though, I notice sooooo many people that have no idea what it truly is throwing the term around all the time:|

Good topic, though!

 

[iacas]

If you look at the angle of the top pros' spines just before release, they telegraph the plane that the disc will be released on.

Then I'd just say that's a component of "Nose Angle Control" and "Wing Angle Control." There's a "spine angle" in golf but even the games best sometimes "early extend" or do other things which don't satisfy this as a true commonality.

Just playing devil's advocate now. We had about 50 potential "Keys" in mind, and only 5 (for golf) ended up sticking to the end.

FWIW the first three Keys in 5SK deal with striking the ball solidly (and getting a good amount of speed) while the last two deal with controlling the flight of the ball.

So while "Nose Angle Control" and "Wing Angle Control" could be condensed, possibly, into "Disc Angle Control" that's just the angle(s) at which you release the disc, so it says nothing about how you get there and actually put some speed into the disc.

And for all I know those won't last, either.

I think a common key to any full speed throw has to be eliminating off axis torque.

I like that one. Is it "measurable?" Even if it's just by visibly "measuring" or seeing what the disc does?

I like this better than "smooth release" FWIW, even if they mean the same thing, because "smooth" is somewhat subjective.

But at first glance I like "No OAT" (though ideally it would be phrased in a positive way, not as a negative "No").

Gotta have something about Snap in there!

How do you measure snap? If you can't measure it I'd eliminate it right away.

Achievable
Measurable

Those are requirements, as is "near 100% commonality among the game's best."

 

[joegraham]

I like that one. Is it "measurable?" Even if it's just by visibly "measuring" or seeing what the disc does?

I like this better than "smooth release" FWIW, even if they mean the same thing, because "smooth" is somewhat subjective.

But at first glance I like "No OAT" (though ideally it would be phrased in a positive way, not as a negative "No").



Those are requirements, as is "near 100% commonality among the game's best."[/QUOTE]

I think OAT is measurable visably by the thrower or observers. It certainly could in slo mo video easily. You can see wobble or flutter.

To put it positively as something to achieve could be "ON Axis Rotation" where the disc is rotating in a plane only around it's center (with no fluctuation/wobble/flutter).

I do tell newbies to try to attain a flat line drive to get maximum distance and control while they're learning to increase arm speed and then shaping lines.

 

[iacas]

I think OAT is measurable visably by the thrower or observers. It certainly could in slo mo video easily. You can see wobble or flutter.

OK. Good then. I'd say it meets that criteria then.

To put it positively as something to achieve could be "ON Axis Rotation" where the disc is rotating in a plane only around it's center (with no fluctuation/wobble/flutter).

Given how much OnAT has to do with nose and wing angles, I'm thinking that perhaps - similar to Keys #4 and #5 in golf - these could be condensed into one or two keys.

For example, "Controlled Axis Tilt" and "On Axis Torque". The first controls the wing and nose angles (it's really just one angle, but breaking them up is like talking about "backspin" and "sidespin" on a golf ball) and the second simply means the torque is applied around an axis perpendicular to that axis (which is pretty much perpendicular to the flight plate).

I do tell newbies to try to attain a flat line drive to get maximum distance and control while they're learning to increase arm speed and then shaping lines.

Thanks.

So right now, perhaps the Keys are (in no order):

Weight Forward
Controlled Axis Tilt
Perpendicular Axis Torque
... with others yet to be determined.

 

[joegraham]

What about weight shift? You have to have it in throwing a ball, or swinging a tennis raquet, golf club or baseball bat. In disc golf most full strength throws are done with a walk/run up. The lower body accellerates, and the upper body coils and uncoils for a whip like action for max speed of the throw or swinging the implement. You have to have a push off with some strength and speed from the back foot to the front foot with good timing to let the body feel the uncoiling of the whip action.

Hmmm, maybe two different things: weight shift strength and speed; and coiling/uncoiling efficiency and speed.

 

[timothyasteele]

Arm speed. Measurable, and definitely necessary for distance (in addition to snap/spin which is not going to be measurable though).

Tim S.

 

[joegraham]

Spin can be measured like they measure spin of a golf ball. Dye it half black and half white, have an overhead camera with super high speed capture it just after release, and you count the number of revolutions and develop a formula to determine revolutions per minute. Probably easier than a golf ball that can spin up to 10,000 RPMs. A disc could spin maybe 1000?

And a radar gun can measure disc speed upon release that can judge your arm speed.

 

[iacas]

What about weight shift?

What about it? Specifically, why are you saying "weight shift" and how does "weight forward" not cover it?

Some golfers have a very centered pivot. Others will shift weight to the right and then back to the left on the downswing. The ONE commonality is that with a 5-iron they're all 85-95% on their front foot (pressure) at impact.

I don't think you could put all RHBH throws into a similar "weight shift" category. You'd see some people stand-still throwing going from 50/50 to 90/10 perhaps while when driving they might go from 5/95 to 100/0 (forward/back in all examples there).

Hmmm, maybe two different things: weight shift strength and speed; and coiling/uncoiling efficiency and speed.

I think that fails on several fronts: it's not achievable by all, it's not a true commonality among the game's great players (nor is it in golf - Bubba Watson is averaging 315.5 yards but Brandt Snedeker is averaging 288 yards - one won a major and the other won $10M in the FedExCup (and nearly $5M outside of it) this year. David Toms is a short hitter and yet won a really prestigious event last year and has a PGA Tour card for the next five years.

Arm speed. Measurable, and definitely necessary for distance (in addition to snap/spin which is not going to be measurable though).

Arm speed is likewise not achievable by all, so it wouldn't meet the criteria.

The point to the Keys being "achievable" is that you can thus apply the system to EVERY disc golfer to make them better. The system doesn't guarantee that you'll win a PDGA major, just that you'll become better as you improve and implement the Keys.

Spin can be measured like they measure spin of a golf ball.

I don't think it's a commonality. I could give Avery Jenkins and Dave Feldberg the same disc and the same target and tell them they had to throw a flex shot to it and we'd likely see different spin rates from each, probably even throw to throw (though I think they'd be pretty consistent there).

It's too fine-grained a thing to be a Key. "Controlled Disc Axis" for example accounts for ALL shots you'd throw whether it's nose down or up, wing down or up, etc.

Plus, as with "disc speed," high spin rates may not be achievable by older players, children, etc. The beauty of 5SK in golf is that EVERYONE can apply them, EVERYONE can achieve them, and EVERYONE can thus get better at golf.

An 80-year old guy might never swing his driver 115 MPH (or even 100), but he can get better at golf if he improves one or more of the 5SK.

 

[Dagwood]

The best throws I have involve a reach back that engages my core and coils the upper body and an unloading of that energy off of the lead foot while my trail leg slows the momentum of my follow through. If the reach back or the follow through are inconsistent, so goes the throw.

I feel to some degree wing / nose angle is accounted for in reach back and follow through by achieving that 'on axis' spin and contouring to the desired line. When the body takes the desired line, the disc follows. Reach back and follow through are huge in that regard.

One thing pros seems to do that does not feel comfortable to me is unload pressure on the lead foot by rotating on their heel, whereas my tendency is to want to spin on the ball of my foot. Purposefully lowering my foot ball-to-heel on pull through does not help either. Not only does following through on the ball of the foot make for a sore knee it is also consuming energy from the follow through and potentially affecting the spin or angle of the disc.

 

[joegraham]

I agree with your analyses above. The throw is like the golf swing. You are trying to boil down to very few commonailties and I see how hard this is. Beginners in ball golf do not keep their front arm straight and therfore don't feel the coil/uncoil resistance a straight arm has to whip the wrists (and the face of the club) down to impact. When they do this, they start to improve distance and ball flight and accuracy. Beginning disc golfers do not throw with speed or spin or axis control. So how we analyze these and break down the necessary components that have to be done for all players to achieve impeovements? Hence this great discussson. I do think that a longer more accurate throw will require some oommph put into it by shifting weight from front to back and releasing the kinetic energy from the coil to throwing with speed, spin and axis control. Basic technique is what you're looking for and anyne can improve from their baseline. When a beginner throws high hyzer stalls going 150 feet, some basic instruction in releasing with some power can flatten, lower, straighten, and lengthen any of their throws.

 

[iacas]

I agree with your analyses above. The throw is like the golf swing. You are trying to boil down to very few commonailties and I see how hard this is.

Indeed. We had about 200 commonalities listed at one point, of varying levels of sophistication. Some weren't even really commonalities, so they were easily axed. Others were pieces of more general (and thus better) commonalities. Some weren't achievable (ability to carry the ball 280 at sea level on flat ground, for example) by all, and so on and so forth.

Beginners in ball golf do not keep their front arm straight and therfore don't feel the coil/uncoil resistance a straight arm has to whip the wrists (and the face of the club) down to impact. When they do this, they start to improve distance and ball flight and accuracy.

I agree, though there are enough pros that bend their left arm that we couldn't include this. Bending that left arm does tend to compromise Key #4 though, so it kind of made it in that way.

Beginning disc golfers do not throw with speed or spin or axis control. So how we analyze these and break down the necessary components that have to be done for all players to achieve impeovements? Hence this great discussson. I do think that a longer more accurate throw will require some oommph put into it by shifting weight from front to back and releasing the kinetic energy from the coil to throwing with speed, spin and axis control.

Yes. I should clarify. For example, "Key #2: Weight Forward" says 85-95% of the pressure is under the front foot in a PGA Tour player's golf swing at impact.

The Key also describes HOW to do this properly. You COULD get 85-95% forward by moving your head forward several inches, but done properly, the head stays and the HIPS (and knees) slide forward as they rotate. So that's a "weight shift" but it ties into Key #2: Weight Forward.

Basic technique is what you're looking for and anyne can improve from their baseline.

Yes, true commonalities that are measurable and achievable. By improving one of them, the average player can improve.

In golf, PGA Tour players have Keys #1-3 down cold 99% of the time. Most of the time they're working on small tweaks to Keys #4 and #5. Though you see plenty of golfers on the PGA Tour with shafts being held against their heads, for example (working on improving Key #1), so 99% might be overshooting it by a lot!

When a beginner throws high hyzer stalls going 150 feet, some basic instruction in releasing with some power can flatten, lower, straighten, and lengthen any of their throws.

Right. If they can do nothing but improve (and I'm making up the number here) "Key #4: Controlled Disc Axis" they'll immediately gain distance and accuracy even with the same arm speed. If they improve "Key #5: Perpendicular Axis Torque" they'll likewise achieve greater distance and accuracy even though they've improved nothing else.

Or if they improve Key #2: Weight Forward (I'm keeping that number the same for now! ) they'll improve. All other things equal, someone throwing off their back foot is likely going to be worse than someone throwing off their front foot.

I feel to some degree wing / nose angle is accounted for in reach back and follow through by achieving that 'on axis' spin and contouring to the desired line.

I would tend to agree. "Controlled Disc Axis" covers the entire motion from the end of the reach-back through to the release. It's simply most efficient to put the disc on the angle and then keep it there, and not have to make a bunch of compensations in a very short span of time.

The game's best golfers put the club and their hands on a plane very early into the downswing, even though they might have weird or unusual backswings. Very similar thing. We like, via Key #4 (Diagonal Sweetspot Path) to have a somewhat less complicated backswing, but all we REALLY care about is where the club and hands are just after the transition to the downswing.

When the body takes the desired line, the disc follows. Reach back and follow through are huge in that regard.

I would tend to agree that they're critical to "Controlled Disc Axis."

One thing pros seems to do that does not feel comfortable to me is unload pressure on the lead foot by rotating on their heel, whereas my tendency is to want to spin on the ball of my foot.

I considered that one. I'm not sure it's a commonality. I've seen pros doing both, or neither (a shorter throw that doesn't involve spinning at all). Their weight is always forward, which is why I've kept that one, but WHERE it is forward and whether or not they actually spin is not a commonality so far as I can tell.

Purposefully lowering my foot ball-to-heel on pull through does not help either. Not only does following through on the ball of the foot make for a sore knee it is also consuming energy from the follow through and potentially affecting the spin or angle of the disc.

True. If there was something here about the heel I think it'd fall under the specifics of "Weight Forward." Remember, there's more to the Key than just the title - it's not only "Weight Forward" in the golf swing, it's HOW to get the weight forward properly (with some variations in feels and the means for each student and even for different clubs in the bag).

Two good posts. Thanks guys. Enjoying the discussion.

 

[Uncle Dougie]

All of this is good information. The one thing I notice from top pro level players is the releasing of the disc almost always on a hyzer plane. Because the power or snap is so great their discs just seem to have this magic straight line it finds during flight. I watch these guys over and over and I still have yet to attain good form.

 

[renoob]

I like you iacas. I don't have anything to contribute, but this is a great thread. No homo.

 

[Rastaman]

The simplest key to disc golf = make putts from farther then ten foot

 

[joegraham]

Or if they improve Key #2: Weight Forward (I'm keeping that number the same for now! ) they'll improve. All other things equal, someone throwing off their back foot is likely going to be worse than someone throwing off their front foot.



I would tend to agree. "Controlled Disc Axis" covers the entire motion from the end of the reach-back through to the release. It's simply most efficient to put the disc on the angle and then keep it there, and not have to make a bunch of compensations in a very short span of time.

The game's best golfers put the club and their hands on a plane very early into the downswing, even though they might have weird or unusual backswings. Very similar thing. We like, via Key #4 (Diagonal Sweetspot Path) to have a somewhat less complicated backswing, but all we REALLY care about is where the club and hands are just after the transition to the downswing.



I would tend to agree that they're critical to "Controlled Disc Axis."


I considered that one. I'm not sure it's a commonality. I've seen pros doing both, or neither (a shorter throw that doesn't involve spinning at all). Their weight is always forward, which is why I've kept that one, but WHERE it is forward and whether or not they actually spin is not a commonality so far as I can tell.



True. If there was something here about the heel I think it'd fall under the specifics of "Weight Forward." Remember, there's more to the Key than just the title - it's not only "Weight Forward" in the golf swing, it's HOW to get the weight forward properly (with some variations in feels and the means for each student and even for different clubs in the bag).

Two good posts. Thanks guys. Enjoying the discussion.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for explaining this. The Weight Forward key will contain a lot of components of "how you get there". Great stuff.

 

[EvanA2]

How about wrist extension upon release? To me this seems like snap, without specifying power or the point to hit/release. If your wrist is closed or partially closed upon release, the disc will most likely hyzer out. How does this fit with other people's experiences or is it a commonality among pros?