Spin vs Speed

[timothy42b]

It's very hard to learn to put appropriate spin on a disc. But all I can tell you is this. Watch coverage and see how all the top players discs always seem to stop and spin for a few seconds.

Grip has a lot to do with it, how you allow your wrist to move and how you allow the disc to rip from your hand as well, as that final leverage has a lot to do with it. Which is why its important to not let your wrist break while throwing.
Because if you throw with a wrist that is open, the disc has less leverage and less spin leaving the hand.

I would like to see spin measured with the different grips, assuming the techdisc is reasonably accurate.

We know he thinks he is using less spin by backloading the grip, but I would like that verified.

 

[jupiterboy]

I would like to see spin measured with the different grips, assuming the techdisc is reasonably accurate.

We know he thinks he is using less spin by backloading the grip, but I would like that verified.

OT has been looking at this in several videos.

 

[Sheep]

OT has been looking at this in several videos.

I would like to see spin measured with the different grips, assuming the techdisc is reasonably accurate.

We know he thinks he is using less spin by backloading the grip, but I would like that verified.

Before OT, I don't recall anyone coming up with the idea of backloading or frontloading the grip.

Far as I can tell most pro's just always throw the same grip except for upshots, where they might do different things.

And I really struggle to have any respect for how OT is doing their study with tech disc. Their environment to throw in is not conducive to good data for starters. And we truely dont know the accuracy of the tech data thing. And its not really being done in a way that is very scientific.

Now what it does do is test some things, sorta. But at the same time it just looks more like advertising a gimmick device to me as well. People like data, the problem with data is using bad methods to achieve better results in the data, even though you're actually doing worse things.

 

[jupiterboy]

Before OT, I don't recall anyone coming up with the idea of backloading or frontloading the grip.

Far as I can tell most pro's just always throw the same grip except for upshots, where they might do different things.

And I really struggle to have any respect for how OT is doing their study with tech disc. Their environment to throw in is not conducive to good data for starters. And we truely dont know the accuracy of the tech data thing. And its not really being done in a way that is very scientific.

Now what it does do is test some things, sorta. But at the same time it just looks more like advertising a gimmick device to me as well. People like data, the problem with data is using bad methods to achieve better results in the data, even though you're actually doing worse things.

That door frame would spook me for sure.

 

[Sheep]

That door frame would spook me for sure.

you cannot properly move as you need to going through a door frame which is outright messing with your brain and.. i cannot english suddenly.

Anyways, yeah, its stupid.

I coudln't even throw in their setup because I don't throw in a fashion that would let me get thorugh that doorframe.

 

[txmxer]

I'm glad this thread was dusted off. This was from 2013, but it's a good read IMO.

EDIT: Timray already quoted DG_players explanation, but it's a great read.

 

[txmxer]

nice

sorry, just saw that you had already quoted the post from DG_Player.

 

[timothy42b]

Before OT, I don't recall anyone coming up with the idea of backloading or frontloading the grip.

Far as I can tell most pro's just always throw the same grip except for upshots, where they might do different things.

I wonder where Josh got it. Michael Strauss talks about it so it's been probably been around a long time. (though I think he uses it to reduce power in upshots, so same thing you are saying.) But I kind of assumed "fan grip and don't let it pivot out" is the same as "backload." Maybe not.

I agree on the OT Techdisc thing. I would have thrown through that doorway once then found a racketball court somewhere. Or pickleball. Or maybe a bathroom.

 

[Sheep]

I wonder where Josh got it. Michael Strauss talks about it so it's been probably been around a long time. (though I think he uses it to reduce power in upshots, so same thing you are saying.) But I kind of assumed "fan grip and don't let it pivot out" is the same as "backload." Maybe not.

I agree on the OT Techdisc thing. I would have thrown through that doorway once then found a racketball court somewhere. Or pickleball. Or maybe a bathroom.

I unfortunately dont know Strauss's work much.
I would love to chat with him a bit and learn more about what he teaches.

But to be completely fair. Josh just makes shit up.
Or he'll hear something from Brychanus and just not look into it further and start saying something and its like "omfg, that's not what that means."

If there is any one thing I cannot scream loud enough is that the dude needs to do some homework and talk to more people to round out his coaching knowledge and ability to teach. Cause some of it I see I wanna go "why are you teaching this, explain it."

And if you send him a message, all he will say is "wait till my next video"
He outright refuses to talk shop. I've tried and tried. He'll chat about anything else, but when you try and talk coaching anything, he just wont reply or give some bullshit answer.


They have that big main room, they are a coaching channel. They are using it for merch and shit. Stop that. Set up a good and proper studio first, make the merch work however. It's just dumb.

It's why I havn't made half the video's I want to make> i cannot use my studio. there is a giant workbench in the way right now I've not finished yet. And a car that's on jackstands which. I dont wanna talk about it. its not going well.

 

[Kennets]

Sheep. It never bores me when you talk "shit" about josh not wanting to listen to you/discuss coaching. For the love of god, just accept what they are - a brand (with some knowledge), it's what they do for a living.

Are you sliding into his DM's everytime they make a video?

 

[Sheep]

Sheep. It never bores me when you talk "shit" about josh not wanting to listen to you/discuss coaching. For the love of god, just accept what they are - a brand (with some knowledge), it's what they do for a living.

Are you sliding into his DM's everytime they make a video?

No, I've sent him a few encouraging messages and chatted, and randomly have asked him questions on stuff.

He will talk all day long, but as soon as its anything coaching/disc golf related, nope.
It's dumb.

I try and give him kudo's when he nails it, it's only good and proper for us to do.
And then I'll ask questions on stuff, and he'll either not respond or give some BS answer.

 

[jupiterboy]

He probably has some sense of developing proprietary info and is competitive. It is the YouTube gen where everything gets swiped and recycled. That said, if he's so paranoid that he won't engage in collegial discussion, it might be more a commentary on his methods of creating content.

 

[HyzerRoc]

And I really struggle to have any respect for how OT is doing their study with tech disc. Their environment to throw in is not conducive to good data for starters. And we truely dont know the accuracy of the tech data thing. And its not really being done in a way that is very scientific.

Now what it does do is test some things, sorta. But at the same time it just looks more like advertising a gimmick device to me as well. People like data, the problem with data is using bad methods to achieve better results in the data, even though you're actually doing worse things.

I think the real issue here is that we explore/learn a lot about discgolf through youtube videos and people who live off of making them. To work with data would require some funding for people to work independently of such a platform that require to present knowledge in a way that is suitable to its algorithm and audience.

That is also why this forum and dgreview has produced so much valuable knowledge (and im unaware of content creators making anything comparable). It is people learning about technique and researching it out of personal interest without the need to adhere to a youtube format.

I also feel like expecting anything that approaches being scientific from people living off of youtube is not a realistic expectation. You have a need to churn out videos regularly and cant spend much time on each single one. You also cant pack all the good stuff in a video, instead it is better to make a series about a topic (like Tech Disc) and go through it in small bites that can be told as a story. Within these small bites a journey is presented instead of the result of a thought process.

 

[BillFleming]

Before OT, I don't recall anyone coming up with the idea of backloading or frontloading the grip.

Far as I can tell most pro's just always throw the same grip except for upshots, where they might do different things.

And I really struggle to have any respect for how OT is doing their study with tech disc. Their environment to throw in is not conducive to good data for starters. And we truely dont know the accuracy of the tech data thing. And its not really being done in a way that is very scientific.

Now what it does do is test some things, sorta. But at the same time it just looks more like advertising a gimmick device to me as well. People like data, the problem with data is using bad methods to achieve better results in the data, even though you're actually doing worse things.

Paul Ulibarri mentioned it in one of his videos (maybe in the Down the Fairway series - if I find it again I'll post the link). I recall he mentioned it while discussing throwing upshots.....having the hand above the elbow and the change in the grip.

 

[sidewinder22]

Before OT, I don't recall anyone coming up with the idea of backloading or frontloading the grip.

Will Schusterick taught a "backloaded" grip for approaches, probably got it from Feldberg.

 

[blayed]

Sheep. It never bores me when you talk "shit" about josh not wanting to listen to you/discuss coaching. For the love of god, just accept what they are - a brand (with some knowledge), it's what they do for a living.

Are you sliding into his DM's everytime they make a video?

In @Sheep 's defense, there's no real downside to engaging with more and more coaches. I think josh's content has improved significantly since he's started talking to chris taylor/andrew/brychanus. I think we're a little spoiled here because a forum, by its nature, allows a free exchange of ideas. We can bounce ideas off each other more freely and easily than josh can IMO.

 

[Kennets]

In @Sheep 's defense, there's no real downside to engaging with more and more coaches. I think josh's content has improved significantly since he's started talking to chris taylor/andrew/brychanus. I think we're a little spoiled here because a forum, by its nature, allows a free exchange of ideas. We can bounce ideas off each other more freely and easily than josh can IMO.

It was kind of a friendly banter towards sheep - we've had this talk a few times. (It may have come out too harsh, than intended).

You're absolutely right, I think we all evolve when we share ideas and philosophies with each other, it being disc golf or life in general.

OT do have one of the most popular, if not the most popular coaching channel on YouTube and I think if he were to listen to every "coach" out there, they wouldn't have time to get content out. So josh chooses to get some well known names he can "drop" in videos too. I like sheep and I like his approach to disc golf. unfortunately for him, that isn't enough (apparently) to get Josh into a deeper discussion.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I would have instinctually thought that spin would increase turn, and I've found myself somewhat confused by results. This is a great, basic clarification and that simulator confirms.

I think people (not you specifically) tend to confuse torque with off axis torque, in the sense that more OAT will make a disc less "stable" in flight, causing them to turn more. Quite often this is visible when comparing some discs that are thrown backhand vs forehand. There's generally less spin and more wobble on forehand throws, and at the same speed the discs thrown with a forehand tend to exhibit more of an S-curve in flight than the backhand throws.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Paul Ulibarri mentioned it in one of his videos (maybe in the Down the Fairway series - if I find it again I'll post the link). I recall he mentioned it while discussing throwing upshots.....having the hand above the elbow and the change in the grip.

It's this one. This predated the OverThrow video and used slightly different terminology, but I think they both helped revive the conversation on grip. I know I personally changed my grip after watching those 2 videos, and the one Dylan from Iceberg TV made.

 

[Sheep]

I think the real issue here is that we explore/learn a lot about discgolf through youtube videos and people who live off of making them. To work with data would require some funding for people to work independently of such a platform that require to present knowledge in a way that is suitable to its algorithm and audience.

That is also why this forum and dgreview has produced so much valuable knowledge (and im unaware of content creators making anything comparable). It is people learning about technique and researching it out of personal interest without the need to adhere to a youtube format.

I also feel like expecting anything that approaches being scientific from people living off of youtube is not a realistic expectation. You have a need to churn out videos regularly and cant spend much time on each single one. You also cant pack all the good stuff in a video, instead it is better to make a series about a topic (like Tech Disc) and go through it in small bites that can be told as a story. Within these small bites a journey is presented instead of the result of a thought process.

The issue I take isn't with that it is or is not, it's that someone is making content acting like it is, when it is not.
It's clickbait essentially at that point, You're lying to people by presenting the information in a false way even if its information, you're just doing it so poorly that it's not good. I'm not saying skewing the data, but just taking really piss poor data sets, which still is data, and then presenting it poorly without explanation.

And yes, if you were someone with Josh's following, but produced video's like I would produce, people would watch them. Cause people LOVE to nerd out on things. But nobody is going to just get excited to check me out on a 30 minute video nerding out on mental concepts and stuff, or even theory on this or that. I don't have the following, so I'm going to have a really bad retention rate. nobody is going to watch the video.

Then on top of that as the other things in here. I could make the most baller level video's about disc golf. Nobody is going to respect me in "that" community even if my information presented is the current gold standard. Because I don't have subscribers. And if they do watch my content, they will steal it and not credit it. Disc golf channels are really bad at crediting others with proof of concept where they got it from, or doing any research whatsoever.

OT do have one of the most popular, if not the most popular coaching channel on YouTube and I think if he were to listen to every "coach" out there, they wouldn't have time to get content out. So josh chooses to get some well known names he can "drop" in videos too. I like sheep and I like his approach to disc golf. unfortunately for him, that isn't enough (apparently) to get Josh into a deeper discussion.

That turns it into a "cool kids club" which I'm 100% against. You CAN spend time talking to others quite easily. I don't spend all day in here, maybe like 20 minutes every other day? Depends on my schedule and I'm able to converse with many coaches at one time.
I off hand talk with other coaches all the time in discord or instagram as well and we explore concepts as time for each of us permits.
The issue comes from some of us in a critical manor of not exploring the topic long enough. Some of its a "oh looks like 1 person told him something, here comes the video where we miss these critical things on this topic."
Because, in the end, it's about getting out content, which ... is what is a big downer. It's not about accurate data, it's about a youtube channel that just happens to do some coaching stuff.

I think people (not you specifically) tend to confuse torque with off axis torque, in the sense that more OAT will make a disc less "stable" in flight, causing them to turn more. Quite often this is visible when comparing some discs that are thrown backhand vs forehand. There's generally less spin and more wobble on forehand throws, and at the same speed the discs thrown with a forehand tend to exhibit more of an S-curve in flight than the backhand throws.

OAT cause massive instability in flight, but this comes into play differently. This is why the term "stable" needs to leave the vocabulary for descriptions of disc flight.

A stable flight will allow the disc to fly as intented.

An unstable flight will give unstable results with it not performing.

A disc without off axis torque on plane spinning will give you a stable flight.

But we in turn, like idiots, continue to use "stable" to mean "straight"

JUST FUCKING SAY STRAIGHT.
Or NEUTRAL.
Whatever.
Sorry, some of this shit triggers me in such weird ways. haha

It's language, lets build better language to promote proper understanding of what is ACTUALLY happening.

This is why Im building the wind tunnel. To promote proper understanding of individuals who want to argue the dumbest shit when they dont even understand basic aerodynamics.