Standstill Forehand Help

[Brodysseus]

2/1/24
2/6/24
2/7/24
2/18/24 Side View
2/18/24 Rear View
*Edit: 2/21 Videos
2/21/24 Heel Up
2/21/24 Toe Up

I am looking for some help on my forehand. Due to an Achilles injury (right, BH plant foot), I am unable to throw backhand right now and likely won't be able to work it back in for another few months.

So I've been playing forehand only so I can keep playing. I have an almost but not really serviceable wobbly flexy forehand that I would like to improve. I'm honestly fine being a one trick pony and just being able to work stable to overstable plastic on a predictable fade line (since I will eventually be able to add the backhand back in), just want to improve release and consistency.

I'll eventually add a run up in but right now I'm just trying to create a simple, repeatable form that's not too hard on my lower body. I'll get some from the side video next time I hit the field.

 

[timothy42b]

I'm going to watch this thread and see if it helps me. I'm using forehand a lot more lately, still don't have any distance but hitting fewer trees.
Don't take anything I say seriously, but I do notice: you're trying really hard to keep the disc flat on plane the whole throw. It looks nose up at release and I think you try to pronate early and just launch it wobbling. The videos that look smooth to me have the elbow higher and disc higher yet in the backswing. Maybe look at Tread Athletics talking the vertical flipup and the 2cnd spiral?

 

[Brodysseus]

I'm going to watch this thread and see if it helps me. I'm using forehand a lot more lately, still don't have any distance but hitting fewer trees.
Don't take anything I say seriously, but I do notice: you're trying really hard to keep the disc flat on plane the whole throw. It looks nose up at release and I think you try to pronate early and just launch it wobbling. The videos that look smooth to me have the elbow higher and disc higher yet in the backswing. Maybe look at Tread Athletics talking the vertical flipup and the 2cnd spiral?

First, thank you for the response.

I have also noticed the nose up. And my trying to keep it flat was specifically trying to combat that because I thought I was maybe swooping (like on a backhand) where I was coming in high, going down, the popping back up. I was relating the high reachback to backhand nose up (I have a swoop problem there) but sounds like I'm looking at wrong. You're suggesting I go ahead and bring it all up a bit higher. My question is if I do, do I try to keep the plane flat or do I chop down somewhat?

As for the pronation, are you saying that I'm "launching" the disc early? Should I be delaying the release point, to where it is more out in front of me?

Thank you for the video suggestions. I found the second arm spiral video and will watch and digest tonight. However, I could not find a vertical flip up video from Tread Athletics, the two I found are "The Three Types of Muscling Up" and "What is Vertical Approach Angle". Is one of those what you were referencing?

 

[timothy42b]

Everybody here knows more than me, so wait to see what they say.

I've watched a lot of Tread Athletics videos precisely because I have no background in throwing a baseball, and some of the best disc throwers point to the similarities. The second hand spiral points out the high cocked position, and Ben talks about it in half a dozen others I've watched. Maybe the ones on layback would help.

But back to keeping it flat. You are leaned over so your shoulders rotate on a tilted axis. You hold your disc flat, below the plane of your shoulders, and then try to move it on a horizontal plane. I could be wrong but it seems more efficient to move the disc on the same plane as your shoulders move. I don't think you should chop down, I think you just let gravity assist you down the shoulder plane.

 

[timothy42b]

By the way, you can imbed a youtube video within your post.
Just to make sure I didn't confuse you. The baseball pitcher does flip up to vertical, but his spine/torso is also vertical at that point. You are bent forward around 30 degrees like a golfer or baseball batter. So I think your backswing flipup position would be parallel to your torso, not vertical.
Second, at release point the pitcher or quarterback has a roughly straight line through both shoulders, humerus, and elbow. The forehand tutorials often advise keeping the elbow close to the body, but watch their video form and you'll see they are closer to the straight line. Ryan Sheldon is an example, throwing 600 feet forehand.

 

[Brodysseus]

By the way, you can imbed a youtube video within your post.
Just to make sure I didn't confuse you. The baseball pitcher does flip up to vertical, but his spine/torso is also vertical at that point. You are bent forward around 30 degrees like a golfer or baseball batter. So I think your backswing flipup position would be parallel to your torso, not vertical.
Second, at release point the pitcher or quarterback has a roughly straight line through both shoulders, humerus, and elbow. The forehand tutorials often advise keeping the elbow close to the body, but watch their video form and you'll see they are closer to the straight line. Ryan Sheldon is an example, throwing 600 feet forehand.

Thanks for the reminder about imbedding videos, when I get some side angle videos I'll edit the original post.

I think I get what you're saying but let's see if I'm tracking: You're saying you'd want a straight line but since I'm bent over, that line is not parallel to the ground?

My question then is: when my shoulders turn should the disc go up then come through on a straight line but because of my bend, the disc would travel down a bit? So a high to low swing? Or should it be low to high?

 

[timothy42b]

Obviously I've confused you so I apologize. (probably shouldn't have started on this)

I have a mental image of what the swing path should look like. But I have no idea how to tell someone else how to achieve it. That is the skill of a coach, and one I don't have. That is an underappreciated skill I think.

If you go to the Techniques and Strategy forum there is a thread called instructional videos. Go to sidewinder's section and watch Forehand Standstills, that is what the throw is supposed to look like. Yes his throw is high to low but there's a lot more nuance than that.

 

[Brodysseus]

Obviously I've confused you so I apologize. (probably shouldn't have started on this)

I have a mental image of what the swing path should look like. But I have no idea how to tell someone else how to achieve it. That is the skill of a coach, and one I don't have. That is an underappreciated skill I think.

If you go to the Techniques and Strategy forum there is a thread called instructional videos. Go to sidewinder's section and watch Forehand Standstills, that is what the throw is supposed to look like. Yes his throw is high to low but there's a lot more nuance than that.

Hey, no need to apologize. I'm just dense. And honestly form feedback feels like science homework a lot of the time, which is obviously not my strong suit.

I was just trying to get clarification. But my main takeaway is that right now my shoulder plane and swing are not aligned/working against each other. So I need to do some research and fix my/find a better swing plane.

Thank you for the help!

 

[timothy42b]

I watched your 3 videos again. Maybe I didn't see what I thought I did. Your swing plane on the 1st seemed better to me; I think it got progressively worse on the 6th and 7th as you tried harder to throw on a flat horizontal plane.
Of course there are other things to work on besides that, but I'm not the right person to spot them all.

 

[Brodysseus]

2/18/24 Rear View
2/18/24 Side View

Work and a sick household have kept me out of the field for a week+ but was able to get out in today's blustery weather.

I have updated my grip based on this Overthrow video. In fact, I'm basically just using that video as my coach right now, including chucking some hammers. My focus is decreasing wobble and increasing spin, but as you can see, not going great.

Remembered to get some side view footage today... rip me apart and build me back up.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Your front foot is spinning out as you plant the heel. Plant the foot without it spinning.

2. Your elbow is tucked in the entire throw. Let your elbow go out wide.

 

[Brodysseus]

1. Your front foot is spinning out as you plant the heel. Plant the foot without it spinning.

2. Your elbow is tucked in the entire throw. Let your elbow go out wide.

1. To clarify, after I plant my front foot it shouldn't move at all? If so, should I open my stance a bit more? I feel like that would be hard on my leg

2. I think i understand this one. I noticed it looks like the disc gets behind me in my reach back. I'm assuming some elbow separation would help with this?

 

[sidewinder22]

1. To clarify, after I plant my front foot it shouldn't move at all? If so, should I open my stance a bit more? I feel like that would be hard on my leg

2. I think i understand this one. I noticed it looks like the disc gets behind me in my reach back. I'm assuming some elbow separation would help with this?

1. Your foot is spinning/flaring before it plants. You could open your stance more.

2. I don't think you are reaching back enough, your shoulders and hips/feet are all square to each other instead of wound up.

 

[Brodysseus]

1. Your foot is spinning/flaring before it plants. You could open your stance more.

2. I don't think you are reaching back enough, your shoulders and hips/feet are all square to each other instead of wound up.

View attachment 333455

1. Oh snap, I sure am. So more straight up and down on the plant?

2. Not sure where I got this but I thought taking the disc behind you was an issue. I'm now gathering it is alright to get it back there as long as my elbow has some separation? And the shoulder separating from the hips should create that whip motion/lag?

 

[sidewinder22]

1. yes
2. It's more inline with the trajectory. Note how things change on different shots.

 

[timothy42b]

2. Not sure where I got this but I thought taking the disc behind you was an issue. I'm now gathering it is alright to get it back there as long as my elbow has some separation? And the shoulder separating from the hips should create that whip motion/lag?

I have a guess at where you got that. It does look like some of the pros leave the disc pretty far forward during the throw, while baseball pitchers always take the arm way back like the images above. I think that maybe those discers are turning the body back, then on the swing the torso catches up with the disc and arm. But they are masters of timing that we mere mortals can't match. My guess anyway.

 

[Brodysseus]

1. yes
2. It's more inline with the trajectory. Note how things change on different shots.

For my most recent field session I just focused on #1 here. Trying to just take it piece by piece.

Working on that alone was hard enough for me. I think probably an actual up/down or step is best but I just could not get the timing.

Instead, I got two different variations that felt alright where my front leg didn't spin out as much.

Toe Up
Heel Up

Both seem equally comfortable and equally wrong. Is one of these better than the other or do I need to do something completely different?

 

[sidewinder22]

Toe up is probably better for you.
You kind of stand up out of the shot, can see your body and arm disc rising into the release and causing wobble.

I'd recommend reaching back higher and coming down slightly thru the hit like slashing thru a tree like a lumberjack. Let your arm float back up away from you in the backswing.

 

[Brodysseus]

Toe up is probably better for you.
You kind of stand up out of the shot, can see your body and arm disc rising into the release and causing wobble.

I'd recommend reaching back higher and coming down slightly thru the hit like slashing thru a tree like a lumberjack. Let your arm float back up away from you in the backswing.

Awesome, toe up was the one I didn't have to think about as much.

Question on the higher reachback... am I going to turf the disc or develop a swoop? I have a swoopy backhand and the corresponding nose angle issues, so I'm hoping to avoid having both of my spins having the same problem.

Thank you for all of your help.

 

[Brodysseus]

So got back out to field today, trying to work on a higher reachback and the toe up plant foot. It was… a character building day.

The toe up was alright, just need to keep getting the reps in and making sure I'm going up and down and not rotating early.

The reachback was way harder than I expected it to be. Both of the things I feared happening happened, I threw a lot straight into the ground and I swooped some into nose up stalls (saw a lot of nose up in general). Also, evidently it's harder than I thought to take the disc back higher, a lot of the ones I burned I took back as normal and then did something weird with my wrist to force it down and to the left?

The session turned into messing with some release angles trying to find the high to low reachback and just trying some different things when I got frustrated. My reachback/follow through fell into three different camps and that's how I separated my videos today: high-to-low, high-to-high, low-to-high (also I understand that's not always how they look but that's what I was trying to do and how they felt).

Varying success and different issues with all of them, and each had plenty of wobble. I'm wondering if a low to high release makes sense for me, since (as Seabass pointed out) I'm popping up in my throw anyways?

I guess rip them all apart and tell me which looks the best?

2/22/24 High to Low
2/22/24 High to High
2/22/24 Low to high