SuperWookie Form Thread

[SuperWookie]

Need to drop your right shoulder and let it hang and swing underneath.

Hey SW, so I just re-watched the Butt Wipe/Inside Swing Drill video and as always, the more time that passes, and then come back to these videos, the more I start to understand. Which then of course leads to more questions.

Also, that video I posted was not meant to be a swing form check. I literally was just drunk and messing around with whipping my arm how I "think" the throw should go, and posting JUST that motion, to see if it is correct. Which HUB is saying: "for the most part, yes." I still need to get to the HS and get some video of some of the drills and throws so I can get back to work on this stuff.



So first question related to this part you wrote at the top and in general is:

1. Why do you have to let the right shoulder/arm/disc come UNDER instead of turning the shoulders? In that Butt Wipe/Inside Drill video, near the end you talk about how you want to get up near the wall and let the disc come straight down and swing back over your toes? But I never see a pro swing like that (of the pros I've ever watched at least). Up and down like a pendulum. So I'm confused by what you mean here and just need some explanation and WHY it's better.

Is this your pendulum method of teaching the swing? Or something ALL good throwers do? Or is it teaching more of a feeling that we should be trying to accomplish? And then how does this whole idea relate for people that have a wide rail type of backswing? Where they keep the disc way out wide? They aren't bringing the disc or arm underneath their shoulder, it's way out wide.



2. What is the whole purpose of this idea? Swinging the disc/arm under the shoulder and over the toes? What is that accomplishing better than turning the shoulders on a tilted axis, like in a golf swing?

Thanks

 

[sidewinder22]

If your shoulder doesn't drop, then you are tense. You want tension or pulled taut, but not tense muscles. Swinging under is still turning, just on more vertical or power plane or oblique swing plane.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138461

See Dave Feldberg, Patrick Brown, Scott Stokely, Markus Kallstrom, Paul McBeth, Paige Pierce all pendulum into the backswing and throw far.

Even Simon Lizotte and Eagle do it.

 

[SuperWookie]

If your shoulder doesn't drop, then you are tense. You want tension or pulled taut, but not tense muscles. Swinging under is still turning, just on more vertical or power plane or oblique swing plane.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138461

See Dave Feldberg, Patrick Brown, Scott Stokely, Markus Kallstrom, Paul McBeth, Paige Pierce all pendulum into the backswing and throw far.

Even Simon Lizotte and Eagle do it.

Hmmm, ok. I "think" I understand. But not 100%. If my arm is more under my shoulder and just hanging, then my shoulder muscle is not tense. As opposed to say my upper body being completely straight upright, then that would mean my shoulder muscle is doing work to hold up my arm? Thus creating some muscle tension? Is that what you're saying?

But I'm not following that, as my body is tilted with the right shoulder down in my video. So are you saying it needs to be even more down? Or my upper body needs be tilted over at the waist even more? And that screen shot of Simon above (which is not how throws anymore) has his shoulders almost flat. His right shoulder might be a smidge lower than the left in that screen capture, but it's not under. So I'm just confused and not totally following.



And just so I totally understand what were discussing, when you say YOUR SHOULDER NEEDS TO DROP, you mean, my front right shoulder needs to be lower? Correct?

And if that is correct, lower than WHAT? And when?

Are you saying my right shoulder needs to be lower in the backswing?

Are you saying my right shoulder needs to be lower when I'm in the pocket?

Are you saying my right shoulder needs to be lower in the lead up to the backswing?

Are you saying my right shoulder needs to be lower at the hit?

Are you saying my right shoulder needs to be lower in the follow thru?

Thanks

 

[sidewinder22]

Your shoulders are barely turned back and fairly level and you are just kind of leaning or tipping back away from target, instead of turning back more centered. You need to turn much further back than a baseball swing. It's much more like pitching and swinging the lead shoulder instead of the trail shoulder, and it's a sidearm or submarine backhand pitch unless you are throwing anhyzer or roller.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=23s

Note the massive side bend or tilt and shoulder turn Eagle and Simon both have, both their shoulders have have turned behind the head so left shoulder/scap is retracted back and closer to target than head and right shoulder, and the left shoulder is posted up to swing the right shoulder from.

Simon's shoulders are definitely not level there, and his form hasn't changed much, it's just tighter. IMO you need to get to something more like the older free wheeling form before you can tighten it up and dial it in like he and McBeth have. You can't easily leap frog into their current form.

 

[SuperWookie]

Your shoulders...]

Thanks SW, I'll read all of this and get back here when I have some form videos to post. A lot to process and go through here. Thanks for the input as always :thmbup:

 

[SuperWookie]

Ok, just went out real quick a few days ago in the horrible heat/humidity, as I just needed to get some video on here so I can start working on SOMETHING.

The few things I was concentrating on during this session, was:

1. Staying Behind the shot. Not letting my upper body and specifically my head get out ahead of the shot. Not trying to keep my head down or still, but just stay behind the shot. Just like in Golf or Tennis.

2. Trying to FEEL like I'm not muscling the shot as much as I normally do and TRYING to get my elbow out and leading the disc, hand on the outside.

3. Just trying to stay loose, specifically my arm, but short concise movements, as opposed to a long run up, lots of movement and trying to kill the shot.

Being 6'8" can have advantages in sports as well as major disadvantages. In any sport where precision and kinetic sequences being perfect are KEY to doing the movement well, I've realized that with my height, my balance is always going to be VERY hard to keep with more movement. As well as having way longer levers and a way longer body, it is MUCH easier for me to get out of sync as well. So I've decided from now on to only do standstill or 1-2 step throws. No more 3-4+ step run ups. I'm just too damn tall to have great balance. And too many things can go wrong so quickly if I make even 1 tiny movement wrong. I've noticed when playing, I usually almost always throw better with a 1-2 step throw, as opposed to any more steps.

4. TRYING to get the feeling of sitting down into the shot, with my hips/butt leading

Now having said all that, I was NOT trying to do anything else. So whatever else is wrong is not what I was working on. But after watching the video a few times, I feel like I did a good job of accomplishing these goals compared to what I NORMALLY do. Not saying the movements I was working on ARE great or good. Just that compared to my NORM, it was a lot better.

But... as ALWAYS, the disc still goes nowhere and overall the practice session was a huge bust. No break thru's or distance gains, and no consistency gains either. The first shot went WAY right, while the second one went straight, but with a big hyzer. Earlier, when I wasn't filming of course, I was getting a little bit more distance concentrating on these ideas. I was throwing putters then and really focusing on getting my elbow out ahead of the disc, as well as staying behind the shot, and trying to sit down into the shot with my butt/hips leading. And I was having marginal gains over my normal shots. Maybe 10-20' more distance and slightly tighter groupings of shots. But nothing that made me go: OH MY GOD, this is working great!

I still can't sling the disc out for good distance still. I've been playing a decent amount this year, and overall for the year, I'm getting slightly more consistent than last year. But not by much. And the distance is exactly the same as last year. Just by playing more, I've gotten a little more consistent, but nothing great. At this point, not even sure if I'll ever be able to throw correctly. Nothing I work on ever works. Nothing I try to practice ever amounts to any noticeable change. Not even from year to year. I've been pretty much where I'm at for about 2 years now, with only minor consistency gains. And obviously I got a little bit better than year 1, but still, super small gains overall in 3 years. With TONS of practice the first year and medium amount of practice the last two. But a lot more playing time the last two years compared to year 1.

So what is good about these things I worked on?

What needs improvement?

Thanks

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[SuperWookie]

Thank you for breaking that down. So I'm seeing/hearing I need to be still turning back WHILE I'm moving forward. Not be done turning, then start moving forward? And that this creates more spring or sling in your body to deliver to the disc. I'll have to work on that.

I'm also still just getting slightly better at planting/bracing before I throw, which is a SUPER hard habit to break, but so important. I usually just can't do it. But I've been working on this in my down time, and getting slightly better. The funniest thing is, every time we take our trash to the dumpster, I practice my back hand throw WITH the giant trash bags. And I don't even have to think. My body just plants well before I sling the trash bag, and bam! Into the dumpster with force and all body. It's SO infuriating trying to trick my brain into thinking this little tiny disc weighs a lot. When in fact it weighs nothing. But i'm doing a little better.

Then what about other things you see? Am I improving, staying the same, getting worse? I feel like my form has gotten a lot better, but just not seeing or feeling any results or difference in distance. Thanks

 

[Lastchancer88]

Thank you for breaking that down. So I'm seeing/hearing I need to be still turning back WHILE I'm moving forward. Not be done turning, then start moving forward? And that this creates more spring or sling in your body to deliver to the disc. I'll have to work on that.

I'm also still just getting slightly better at planting/bracing before I throw, which is a SUPER hard habit to break, but so important. I usually just can't do it. But I've been working on this in my down time, and getting slightly better. The funniest thing is, every time we take our trash to the dumpster, I practice my back hand throw WITH the giant trash bags. And I don't even have to think. My body just plants well before I sling the trash bag, and bam! Into the dumpster with force and all body. It's SO infuriating trying to trick my brain into thinking this little tiny disc weighs a lot. When in fact it weighs nothing. But i'm doing a little better.

Then what about other things you see? Am I improving, staying the same, getting worse? I feel like my form has gotten a lot better, but just not seeing or feeling any results or difference in distance. Thanks

I'm no expert here, but the two things you mentioned are a part of the same action. You want to move backward or butt first INTO the brace, which prevents you from throwing before the kinetic chain is ready. I struggle with that. I have to remind myself to improve distance we have to reconfigure a more efficient machine first, then add power/speed to it. It may require losing distance at first (hence the advice that form work will make you worse before better). I always try to add speed and power to the less efficient machine which soaks the power into itself instead of transferring it to the disc. It's a pain in the butt process.

I saw a Stokely vid recently for gatekeeper media (i think) where he has the guy hold his arm in reachback position and just do an x-step back and forth getting a feel for landing and planting before the arm even moves. I think it's a good little exercise for the feeling of bracing before throwing as well as being more turned back. Kinda the lead up into where the one leg drill takes over.

 

[sidewinder22]

Watch how my front foot leaves the ground in the backswing, my heel gets pulled up first from the body turning back and my toes stay pointed more downward in the stride and turning back with the pelvis, toe down hip swing. You kind of pick your toes up to stride and turn forward, toe up hip swing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=4m14s

Exercises for Rocking the Hips. Starting at 3:30 he does the standing up version. You'll see a lot of similarities to Hershyzer drill and Kicking the Can.

There's the difference between riding the slide closed into the plant, and shift from behind vs from in front/open.

 

[SuperWookie]

Watch how my front foot leaves the ground in the backswing, my heel gets pulled up first from the body turning back and my toes stay pointed more downward in the stride and turning back with the pelvis, toe down hip swing. You kind of pick your toes up to stride and turn forward, toe up hip swing.

Ok, I do see that. But it seems like a very minor difference? What exactly is the end result between the two? Of your lead heel picking up in the backswing vs my foot being more flat and moving forward? It looks like my butt and lower body is definitely leading the throw, just like your throw. So can you explain why it makes a difference?

Lets say, hypothetically, I did EVERYTHING perfectly except that part, what would the end results be? Would there be a miniscule, medium or large difference in the end result (meaning distance and accuracy)?

Also, what would the end result difference be for pushing off of your rear foot with your foot more flat vs your foot in plantar flexion (up on your toes)? I know in our two example videos you used, we're not doing an X step, so we're not going to be UP on our toes coming into the plant. But I'm going to guess here that it has to do with gravity/energy? And just getting that tiny little extra bit of gravity to assist you going down and forward into the plant could get you a little more distance? Or does it make a big difference in distance? I've always noticed Simon does that REALLY well and I have a hard time doing that. As I'm always trying to work on and correct a thousand things at once. So I'm not worrying about that right now. Just trying to focus on a few things at a time this year, and get better at those, before moving on. But just curious in general.

And I've watched that Hershiser drill a bunch of times over the last few years, and it's finally making more real world sense to me. I can see how a pitcher can get more velocity from leading with the butt first, body in balance, head centered, body moving forward but with the majority of your COG behind the throw, but looking forward, and pushing off the rear foot with foot in plantar flexion. The lower body would be moving forward at a quick pace, while the upper body is lagging and still turned, which then creates that rubberband effect you talk about often. Which would then allow the torso to come around really late with a ton of energy, and finally release the arm at a much higher speed. I also see that Hershiser move in some pros throws and especially Simon!

Thanks

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Lets say, hypothetically, I did EVERYTHING perfectly except that part, what would the end results be? Would there be a miniscule, medium or large difference in the end result (meaning distance and accuracy)?

The results are going to be big for this, because you're setting up with an open plant that can only bow outward instead of firming up to transfer ground force up the body.

In the early days of learning to close the plant foot it's a good idea to put your toe down first, then put your heal down in FRONT of you toe. That requires you to really get your shoe laces facing backwards.

like...

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

so...


https://youtu.be/AwYvav4xCR8?t=9

 

[sidewinder22]

And I've watched that Hershiser drill a bunch of times over the last few years, and it's finally making more real world sense to me. I can see how a pitcher can get more velocity from leading with the butt first, body in balance, head centered, body moving forward but with the majority of your COG behind the throw, but looking forward, and pushing off the rear foot with foot in plantar flexion. The lower body would be moving forward at a quick pace, while the upper body is lagging and still turned, which then creates that rubberband effect you talk about often. Which would then allow the torso to come around really late with a ton of energy, and finally release the arm at a much higher speed. I also see that Hershiser move in some pros throws and especially Simon!

Thanks

Paul liked it.

 

[SuperWookie]

The results are going to be big for this, because you're setting up with an open plant that can only bow outward instead of firming up to transfer ground force up the body.

In the early days of learning to close the plant foot it's a good idea to put your toe down first, then put your heal down in FRONT of you toe. That requires you to really get your shoe laces facing backwards.

like...

Interesting. So just my foot being slightly open and my leg being slightly bent is causing a HUGE loss in potential distance? Never would have guess that was the problem. But thank you both.

I'll try working on that now and get some video back when I can. Thanks

 

[rgrrbt]

Interesting. So just my foot being slightly open and my leg being slightly bent is causing a HUGE loss in potential distance? Never would have guess that was the problem. But thank you both.

I'll try working on that now and get some video back when I can. Thanks

Having the feet open/pointing in opposite directions also limits the range of motion of the hip rotation. Try it standing without a disc. With the open stance, I can rotate my hips back much less than when I close the front foot. Every little bit helps with those of us with less than Gumby-like flexibility. :thmbup:

 

[RistoS]

Interesting. So just my foot being slightly open and my leg being slightly bent is causing a HUGE loss in potential distance?

HUB also has the leg slightly bent in that frame, it's just the open stance being the issue.

 

[SuperWookie]

So I was working on trying to place my left foot more tuned back in my X step this weekend when I played, along with TRYING to plant quicker and take more time to start my throw, and I was consistently getting more distance on all my drives! I even threw a couple 360-380' on a golf line! Which for me, is the farthest I've ever thrown ON course!

It felt REALLY good and lot better than what my norm is. Although, I don't think the left foot turning more behind me made the big difference. I'm almost 100% sure it was the throwing AFTER I have planted, not while, haha. And REALLY focusing on pushing into that plant leg from the inside of my foot. All my throws felt way more powerful AND consistent, and I wasn't toppling over my plant leg forward like James Conrad. It was a fairly powerful/fast STOP, then throw. I was throwing discs WHERE I wanted them to go and felt almost like a real disc golfer, not some amateur hack, haha. Like I could just worry about where I want to throw, not HOW to throw, if you know what I mean? So that was pretty fun and encouraging. Still wasn't every throw and still made lots of little and large mistakes all weekend. But it was good improvement. I need to keep going with this planting first and hard feeling and get even better at it, as it felt like a big change for me and the distance was there for sure.

The other thing I think helped a lot was the idea of instead of pushing or turning my shoulders and the disc behind me in the backswing, was the idea of leaving it, and working past it. So AS I moved forward, the disc stayed near the left side of my body and I just worked my way past the disc. And then really tried to get my right shoulder back farther (as you have mentioned I need to do SW22). I noticed when I didn't do that as well, my throw was not as good, and when I did it really well, my throws were longer and more consistent. So that was a nice little boost in performance. Still not seeing any crazy distance or accuracy jumps yet, but, I think this is just going to be one of those things that takes a long time with many small little improvements to see big improvement over a long period of time.

But the one thing I still can't do or understand well is the idea that HUB always talks about being THE most important part of the distance equation, and that's the idea of: Hand on the outside of the disc for as long as possible, disc coming in deep to your center or right pec, elbow out in front. I have done the hammer throws, the sledge throws, the water bottle drill, many many times and it just doesn't translate to the disc. And one thing I still just don't understand is HOW pros or good throwers get the disc from the farthest reach back point TO their chest WITHOUT "pulling" it? It makes no sense. They HAVE to be doing something with their arm, shoulder or torso to get that disc from the farthest reach back point TO their center/right pec area, which then allows them to just destroy the disc out from all the leverage that is being created. These two photos of Eagle are a prime example of what I'm talking about. HOW does he get the disc to his chest from the reachback? I think if I can figure out this part of the equation, I will start throwing way farther very quickly and all the other parts of the swing will just make that part better. But I just can't figure this part out and need help.

 

[sidewinder22]

But the one thing I still can't do or understand well is the idea that HUB always talks about being THE most important part of the distance equation, and that's the idea of: Hand on the outside of the disc for as long as possible, disc coming in deep to your center or right pec, elbow out in front. I have done the hammer throws, the sledge throws, the water bottle drill, many many times and it just doesn't translate to the disc. And one thing I still just don't understand is HOW pros or good throwers get the disc from the farthest reach back point TO their chest WITHOUT "pulling" it? It makes no sense. They HAVE to be doing something with their arm, shoulder or torso to get that disc from the farthest reach back point TO their center/right pec area, which then allows them to just destroy the disc out from all the leverage that is being created. These two photos of Eagle are a prime example of what I'm talking about. HOW does he get the disc to his chest from the reachback? I think if I can figure out this part of the equation, I will start throwing way farther very quickly and all the other parts of the swing will just make that part better. But I just can't figure this part out and need help.

If your shoulders are properly loaded at the top of the backswing(door frame drill) with a wide upper arm, then basically all you need to do is bend the elbow as everything automatically unwinds forward.