SuperWookie Form Thread

[slowplastic]

Is reverse K like a reverse pivot? I think I don't really understand the reverse K thing.

I guess I don't really see how you could get your shoulder forward without having that tilt so that the rear leg counters the throw, so the torso will have that angle.

If 14's face wasn't in the way of Poulin's upper arm she'd probably be in the "power pocket" position.

 

[SuperWookie]

I don't know? haha. I guess I'm just confused by seeing so many pros in a reverse K position when throwing, and then reading on here about being all lined up on top of your front leg and straight. It seems like two different ideas or maybe the end results are the same, but two different ideas to get there? Plus, I read this blog post by HUB forever ago, and I always keep coming back to it, and thinking it's THE KEY to throwing hard/far? This article here is what I always refer back to:
http://www.heavydisc.com/2016/02/full-hitting-heavy-vs-simon.html

And that is a shoulder check, not a disc throw. So I'm having a really hard time understanding how they are the same? I would never hit a golf ball, a tennis back hand or a slap shot with my shoulder that far forward over my front leg. I would fall over real fast if I did! Having played hockey competitvely through HS, a shoulder check feels a LOT different than a perfect backhand in tennis, golf shot or baseball hr.

The body in that position has a TON of energy/weight moving forward. So if that person wasn't there, they would literally fall over forward really fast and hard. Whereas when you hit a golf ball, tennis ball or anything, you are actually bracing and pulling back at the point of the hit, not trying to get even farther forward out over your front foot. So the whole idea isn't computing in my mind. Even this photo of SW shows he's not out over his front foot like he says to do. He mentions to me and loads of other people, to be out over your front foot, everything inline. And yet, here in this screen shot he's not. His foot and knee are inline on top of each other. Everything is back. His shoulder is close to being over his foot, but it's only because he is rotating open that it's in that position. Before that and after that, his shoulder is behind his foot.

So this just confuses the hell out of me. This idea of being all lined up on/over your front foot. I'm not trying to say you and SW are wrong, not saying that at ALL. Just saying, I'm really confused by the two different ideas and body positions I see you guys talking about vs what a pro body position is at the hit. The idea of being up on/over your front foot with your shoulder forward, doesn't seem actively balanced and ready for a HUGE weight to be slung forward. It's in these photos that the person throwing the disc looks ready to be able to handle a TON of weight, and of course, they all throw super far:

 

[slowplastic]

Is this person in perfect dynamic balance, due to their momentum? Or are they way behind their feet and falling over?

 

[SuperWookie]

That guy is in dynamic balance. Because he WAS going forward fast, then performed a stop, and in order to do that without falling over, has to lean back, keep his COG temporarily behind his feet at a certain distance/angle and BRACE against the friction caused by the blade on the ice digging in. Which is literally an example of Simon, Eagle or anyone throwing a disc super hard. If they DON'T brace their leg similar to that, they would tip over. But because their front foot is out in front of their COG (the core), they are able to apply a ton of leverage to the disc AND not fall over.

I'm not understanding the reference or point here? This photo seems to confirm the fact that in order to throw a disc far, you HAVE to brace hard and keep your COG behind your front foot, otherwise you'd fall over. All of those photos I just posted of top pros on a teepad show the classic reverse K, which is very similar to this hockey stop photo. So I'm confused again as to why you would ever want to be all lined up over your foot when throwing far? I'm sorry, I'm just not following your reference with the shoulder check or hockey stop, nor why would anyone say to be lined up over your front foot at the hit. All of those photos clearly show, that top pros are braced way back at the hit, in order to not only leverage the disc super hard, but to prevent them from falling over.

Maybe this is a case of different ways to achieve the same end result??? Like, I see SW on his videos throw from a stand still 350-400. Which in the grand scheme of things, isn't super far. But for a normal person it is very impressive! And it's even more impressive because he's standing still! No run up or x step. But then I watch all these pros play and throw, and for the most part, all are in the classic reverse K position at the hit and using an x step. So is it possible, that the way SW and yourself are learning/teaching is just ONE WAY to achieve the same end results? Throwing the disc far and straight with consistency?

I recently watched a video of Simon describing how to throw and had my headphones on to listen as well. And he is almost saying the exact opposite of SW. SW talks about a pendulum swing, 3 dimensional forward and backward pendulum and then throwing. But Simon SPECIFICALLY states in his video, that he sees AM's doing this all the time, and has no idea why they're doing that. He says it's adding in all this extra movement that doesn't need to be there, that is just complicating things. He says keep it simple. Less moving parts are better. He says to just keep the disc close to you with your elbow up and forward, and then at the point of your body getting down into your plant leg, the disc will get yanked straight behind you, then get ejected out in front of you. Simple he says.

So I'm really lost as to why we're being taught to do things one way, and yet see pros doing things a different way and describing how to do it differently as well. It's VERY confusing and makes me wonder what is going on? Who is correct? If I really think about it, my thought is that both people are correct, and that there are probably tons of different ways to throw the disc far. Just like in golf or baseball or tennis. ALL SORTS of different swings and ways to get to the ball, but the end results are distance and accuracy. So is that the case here? Is what you and SW are teaching us, YOUR way of throwing well. But there are many many other ways to also achieve that goal? It has to be. Because both the pros and SW have the results to show for it. Both people can throw far, accurate and with consistency. But I'm not sure, because nobody ever prefaces anything they post here with a quick: this is how I DO IT, but there are many other ways to do it. So I just assume that you guys know what you are talking about and your way is the best/only way. But the more I think about it, I'm not so sure, and actually pretty sure there are many ways to achieve this end goal.

 

[slowplastic]

I see the hockey stop as being balanced over your feet dynamically, but behind them if you draw a vertical line over the stance in a still shot. So a standstill shot with little/no momentum looks over the leg, but if you have forward momentum you are more and more behind the plant leg in space to have similar dynamic balance.

 

[sidewinder22]

Settle down man, breathe! I don't even know where to begin with all your questions. I think your instincts are mostly correct, but you are misunderstanding things being said. You say I'm saying these things here or there, but I don't know what it is in reference to or what I actually said. I think you are confusing things I'm talking about in One Leg Drill with a two leg throw and taking them out of context.

If you read my PSA I advise to experiment and try different things. I can throw with Simon's form if I want to, I can throw with Feldberg's form if I want to. It's really all the same nutz and bolts!

What I am I teaching you here about bracing?


This is Paul McBeth's backswing right here and coming into the plant at an angle:


In the second part of the wall drill what I am teaching you here about tension in the arm at the hit and bracing?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

So I'm really lost as to why we're being taught to do things one way, and yet see pros doing things a different way and describing how to do it differently as well. It's VERY confusing and makes me wonder what is going on? Who is correct? If I really think about it, my thought is that both people are correct, and that there are probably tons of different ways to throw the disc far. Just like in golf or baseball or tennis. ALL SORTS of different swings and ways to get to the ball, but the end results are distance and accuracy.

I started typing a response then thought I was being too long winded and deleted it, then saw SW post as well but thought still room to clarify.

If you go through lots of different form threads you will notice SW will try and pull out his comparison gifs/videos of Pros who have a similar body type and basic movement to the person's thread. There really is some acknowledgement to those individual differences but also an over-arching thought about swing ideals.

Think baseball hitters. If you were teaching do you want people to study and mimic Vlad Guerrero's swing? He hits hard and had a pretty successful career, or stick with the pretty mechanics of Mike Trout?

 

[sidewinder22]

Think baseball hitters. If you were teaching do you want people to study and mimic Vlad Guerrero's swing? He hits hard and had a pretty successful career, or stick with the pretty mechanics of Mike Trout?

Gary Sheffield.

 

[SuperWookie]

I started typing a response then thought I was being too long winded and deleted it, then saw SW post as well but thought still room to clarify.

If you go through lots of different form threads you will notice SW will try and pull out his comparison gifs/videos of Pros who have a similar body type and basic movement to the person's thread. There really is some acknowledgement to those individual differences but also an over-arching thought about swing ideals.

Think baseball hitters. If you were teaching do you want people to study and mimic Vlad Guerrero's swing? He hits hard and had a pretty successful career, or stick with the pretty mechanics of Mike Trout?

Gary Sheffield.

Or Julio? Hahahaha

I think I see what you guys are getting at. I'm just so frazzled, confused and frustrated. This isn't going anything like I thought it would. So I'm having a really hard time keeping things straight in my mind and when discussing stuff I feel bad too, because I'm sure you guys have told me a few things more than a handful of times and you're wondering if I even read your posts or have a functioning brain, haha. I do, haha. But I'm just so confused about all of this. It wasn't this hard for any other sport, they just came naturally. So since this is taking so long, and I'm not making the progress I thought I would, I feel really confused and doubting so many things.

I know you guys know what you're talking about and I appreciate the help so much. I just need to chill out and let this journey unfold how it may. I'm so impatient to do well. I work hard when I practice and feel that the hardwork is not resulting in better distance and consistency. So that is super frustrating and angers me. It's not your guys fault either. SW and SP alone have probably taught me all I need already to become a great thrower, this is just one of those things that is going to take a lot of time. And I have to accept that instead of fighting it Thanks guys

 

[SuperWookie]

So back to one thing at a time. I'm watching some video from a few weeks ago, when I was throwing much better. And I noticed something in my footwork I "think" I could do better? I mean obviously my footwork could be better, but you know, haha.

So I noticed in the video while doing the slow X step hammer walk throws (from the SW video), that my rear foot comes in on the toes, but then crushes down to the ground while I start moving into the plant foot. So I was wondering if you think it would be BETTER to try and stay UP on my rear toe while I'm working into the plant foot? The more I watch great throwers, the more I see they're up on their toes a lot. Not much time flat footed. Other than the last plant at the hit.

It got me thinking that maybe staying up on that toe will give me more vertical compression down into my plant leg, and more leverage for the disc?

Good idea or bad idea?

Up on my rear toe here

But then collapse down onto my whole foot flat

 

[UhhNegative]

Yes, it would force you to keep balanced on the rear leg as being on the toes is more difficult than the heels but keeps you athletic and easier to shift weight. I majorly have this problem in my throw of going to the rear heel and letting it drag instead of pushing off the instep/toes.

Ricky almost always has his rear heel pretty far up.

 

[sidewinder22]

You want to keep plantar flexion on the rear foot to bounce back off it faster. It is ok for the heel to hit the ground, but you don't want to relax the foot because you will lose the bounce reflex. I sometimes see players taking it too far on the toes and will recommend for them to let their heel down because they aren't able to get balanced enough and fall over leftward into the plant instead of bouncing forward while getting knee flex and hip depth/squat in the stride to explode from.

 

[SuperWookie]

Ok, that makes sense, I understand exactly what you are saying and was thinking your exact answer. I am going to mess around with being up on my rear toe a little longer, see if I can stay in balance and see what kind of distance gains happen, or not. Thanks!

What I don't understand is how certain players CAN throw with their heel on the ground really bad, and still throw super far. I was watching this disc review of a D3Max and just about spit my drink out on the screen when I saw what Will (one of the best pros ever) Schusterick was doing!

LOOK AT THIS!

When we do that, you tell us that is a big no no. So is this a case of Will is doing something incorrect, but since he's so freaking good, he can get away with it? And if he cleaned that up to perfect, would he be able to throw a lot farther or not really? What kind of tangible gains or losses would you expect from Will fixing that?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

So I noticed in the video while doing the slow X step hammer walk throws (from the SW video), that my rear foot comes in on the toes, but then crushes down to the ground while I start moving into the plant foot. So I was wondering if you think it would be BETTER to try and stay UP on my rear toe while I'm working into the plant foot? The more I watch great throwers, the more I see they're up on their toes a lot. Not much time flat footed. Other than the last plant at the hit.

A HUGE issue for me and has been for a long time. I think I have it worked out and then as soon as I stop focusing on staying off me heel I get on the heel then regress even further to everting my rear foot and pushing off the heel. I know this really is my fault for trying to do my form improvement on the course rather than field work, and that my filming is so few and far between, but the difference in ability to get power from the hips vs the rear leg being an anchor and hindering power is enormous.

Windmill drill for me has helped. Getting up tall, not striding too far with the left foot during the X making sure my weight doesn't end up behind the left foot and this all allows me to fall into the plant better.
Its harder for me on an uphill drive which I have a lot of at home but has really helped.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Ok, that makes sense, I understand exactly what you are saying and was thinking your exact answer. I am going to mess around with being up on my rear toe a little longer, see if I can stay in balance and see what kind of distance gains happen, or not. Thanks!

What I don't understand is how certain players CAN throw with their heel on the ground really bad, and still throw super far. I was watching this disc review of a D3Max and just about spit my drink out on the screen when I saw what Will (one of the best pros ever) Schusterick was doing!

LOOK AT THIS!

When we do that, you tell us that is a big no no. So is this a case of Will is doing something incorrect, but since he's so freaking good, he can get away with it? And if he cleaned that up to perfect, would he be able to throw a lot farther or not really? What kind of tangible gains or losses would you expect from Will fixing that?

this Will is a shadow of former Will that did not do this.

 

[SuperWookie]

A HUGE issue for me and has been for a long time. I think I have it worked out and then as soon as I stop focusing on staying off me heel I get on the heel then regress even further to everting my rear foot and pushing off the heel. I know this really is my fault for trying to do my form improvement on the course rather than field work, and that my filming is so few and far between, but the difference in ability to get power from the hips vs the rear leg being an anchor and hindering power is enormous.

Windmill drill for me has helped. Getting up tall, not striding too far with the left foot during the X making sure my weight doesn't end up behind the left foot and this all allows me to fall into the plant better.
Its harder for me on an uphill drive which I have a lot of at home but has really helped.

Yeah, when I get into a full jog X step, for some reason, I can drag my heel as well! It's so weird, because it was never an issue in my form from a standstill or the X step walk. I'm still trying to learn all the timing of how and when to do things in the swing when using a full X step. It's so complicated to do it all correctly AND in time! I'm 99% sure my upper body is always trying to Go Go Go to quickly while my lower body is moving much slower. Which is SOOO weird. I played tennis, hockey and golf at high levels for a long time, and have no problems with those movements. But for some reason, putting the disc in my hand screws it all up! I almost just want to find a tennis wall somewhere I can go and just BANG the sh*t out of backhands over and over to get that grooved into my mind, and then go throw, haha. I have a mean/heavy one hand backhand. So I have NO idea why it's not transferring to this disc!

It just means I get to practice more, yay! hahaha

 

[SuperWookie]

So I'd still love to hear from ALL of you, how you feel about this topic. Nobody has responded to this.

This idea of loose arm or sling shot arm. I hear all sorts of descriptions of the arm and how it should be during a golf disc throw, but I realized I really don't have any idea how loose or firm it should be, especially when related to other sports. So I watch videos from pros I like every night now. And then I read tons of stuff on here as well all the time. And I keep hearing and reading about having a loose arm. But what does that mean, and how loose is "loose?"

I'm going to create this fictitious scale of 1-5 for the purposes of this question. 1 being a total noodle arm that's like jello and no conscious use of the arm to throw vs 5 which would be a totally flexed fairly firm arm that is being very controlled.

In golf, I would say the arms are around a 2 most of the backswing, then they probably move up to a 4 on the left arm at the hit, and the right arm a little less, maybe around 3.

Baseball, I would say the arms are around a 2-3 in the preswing and back swing. Then right around the hit, up to about a 4 again.

Throwing a baseball would be around a 2 before you throw and around 3ish at the throw.

And tennis would be similar to golf/baseball hit with the arm around a 2-3 pre hit, and around 4/4.5 at the hit.

So if you could use this scale, what would the arm be in Disc golf throwing?

I just realized a few days ago, I've never really asked specifically how loose or firm the arm should be at the different parts of the swing. And how much or little are you controlling it. I feel like it's supposed to be pretty loose and almost no arm for the majority, but at the same time somehow using your arm harder right at the hit? I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking. Thanks everyone

 

[NoseDownKing]

SuperWookie. I might be wrong but I think you are getting into too much detail.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[slowplastic]

I would say that in a disc golf drive, through the arm extension/hit point phase my right arm feels similar strength to my lead arm in a golf club swing. In that I'm firmly guiding it through contact but not tensing it up terribly so. Keep in mind that I'm not and never was an incredible golfer but I first swung clubs when I was 4 and took lessons when I was young, so I had a solid enough foundation until I stopped playing in my early teens.

Basically the arm feels extended and firm, not fully tensed up but not just loose and being pulled like nothing.

In the backswing I am just having enough control that I'm aware of the arm. Again kind of like lead arm in a batting stance, where you're balancing and aware of the bat but not tensed at all.

 

[sidewinder22]

What I don't understand is how certain players CAN throw with their heel on the ground really bad, and still throw super far. I was watching this disc review of a D3Max and just about spit my drink out on the screen when I saw what Will (one of the best pros ever) Schusterick was doing!

When we do that, you tell us that is a big no no. So is this a case of Will is doing something incorrect, but since he's so freaking good, he can get away with it? And if he cleaned that up to perfect, would he be able to throw a lot farther or not really? What kind of tangible gains or losses would you expect from Will fixing that?

As PFD mentioned Will didn't used to do that when he was the #1 player in the world, and I would tend to agree with most other form nerds that his form used to be near perfect. I started noticing his heel push right around when his shoulder injury happened circa 2015. His form since then makes me cringe and he seems to focus on maximum shoulder turn and really cranking the left arm back. I'm not sure if the heel push is a cause or effect or possibly both.

Christian Sandstrom(former world record distance holder and arguably the goat of distance contests and certified chiropractor) said that if you don't engage the rear calf it can cause injury to the lead shoulder because your weight will get stuck back and jam up or restrict the followthru/deceleration.

On the other hand it seems plausible that he could possibly be easing the stress on the shoulder joint by turning his shoulders further back which would allow him to reduce the range of motion on the joint, although I don't think he is doing his back any favors with that kind of x-factor.

When you are built like an orangutan you can get away with some swing inefficiencies. I would guess he could add 50-100' with proper rear foot drive. The engine or majority of your distance comes from the front leg/core. The rear leg is an accelerator/gas pedal sending more gas to the engine.