Supination vs pouring the coffee, how can they both be nose down?

[RowingBoats]

I think you mixed up the rotation direction of the shoulder. External shoulder rotation goes much more naturally with supination.

Rotating the shoulder so that the bicep turns away from the side of the body is external shoulder rotation.

When people mention supination through the hit as a nose-down technique, I don't think any of them are also including a requisite shoulder rotation.

I might be slightly more flexible than average, but I am definitely not exceptional in this regard. Are you not able to supinate/pronate the wrist without shoulder rotation?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

When people mention supination through the hit as a nose-down technique, I don't think any of them are also including a requisite shoulder rotation.

I might be slightly more flexible than average, but I am definitely not exceptional in this regard. Are you not able to supinate/pronate the wrist without shoulder rotation?

Maybe I misread what you were saying, I'm just saying that supination and external rotation are easier to do together and I thought you were saying you supinate and internally rotate the shoulder together, which is awkward so I thought maybe you meant to say supinate + external shoulder rotation instead.

 

[RowingBoats]

Maybe I misread what you were saying, I'm just saying that supination and external rotation are easier to do together and I thought you were saying you supinate and internally rotate the shoulder together, which is awkward so I thought maybe you meant to say supinate + external shoulder rotation instead.

Oh, that wasn't me you quoted. I am just speaking in general about the info in this thread and the video you originally made. Are you able to play around and perform supination without radically altering your other arm angles like the video showed you doing? I think if you isolate it completely, with a neutral swing plane, you can probably see how supination can lead to nose down angles at certain disc release locations.

 

[timothy42b]

Maybe I misread what you were saying, I'm just saying that supination and external rotation are easier to do together and I thought you were saying you supinate and internally rotate the shoulder together, which is awkward so I thought maybe you meant to say supinate + external shoulder rotation instead.

That is me that was quoted. I may not be understanding sidewinder correctly but I thought he said the shoulder naturally rotates internally as it swings forward. That seems opposite to a supination of the wrist, but of course these can happen independently to some extent. If I misunderstood sidewinder then I apologize. In my own swing I think if the wrist is above the elbow the shoulder "wants" to rotate externally and if below as it should be it rotates internally.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Oh, that wasn't me you quoted. I am just speaking in general about the info in this thread and the video you originally made. Are you able to play around and perform supination without radically altering your other arm angles like the video showed you doing? I think if you isolate it completely, with a neutral swing plane, you can probably see how supination can lead to nose down angles at certain disc release locations.

Yeah I can see that now, it's just so intuitive for the nose angle to be relatively close to the launch angle so my arm made the adjustment to keep those somewhat in sync. When exaggerating pronation for example, you could be throwing the disc bottom side forwards and it can't pivot out that way, so that's why automatically the arm wants to throw more upwards there.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think this depends on where your release point is. If you release closer to 9 o'clock vs closer to 12 o'clock these motions or arm angles are going to do opposite things to the disc angles as everything moved 90 degrees(or some variation) and a disc has no static nose, unlike an airplane that has a defined nose.

Wrist Roll or Supination/Pronation affects the wing angle(hyzer/anhyzer) when arm is pointed at trajectory.

Wrist Up/Down or Radial/Ulnar Deviation affects the nose angle when arm is pointed at trajectory.

Now if you hold your arm/disc straight out from chest, 90 degrees from target those motions are going to do the opposite to the disc angles.

What about shoulder flexion / extension (raising / lowering the elbow with the elbow bent around 90 degrees).

Somewhere in this video, around half way or before I think, Brodie mentions lowering the arm (less shoulder flexion) for more hyzer. My instinct is focus most on upper body angle and keep the arm relatively the same, but it seems to sometimes happen naturally when I want extra hyzer for example. Is it common for good players to use this as a primary mechanism for controlling release angle?

In general I've heard dropping the elbow is bad but as long as it's not dropped too much there's still enough space for a power pocket below the chest it seems.

 

[419HondaGuy]

What about shoulder flexion / extension (raising / lowering the elbow with the elbow bent around 90 degrees).

Somewhere in this video, around half way or before I think, Brodie mentions lowering the arm (less shoulder flexion) for more hyzer. My instinct is focus most on upper body angle and keep the arm relatively the same, but it seems to sometimes happen naturally when I want extra hyzer for example. Is it common for good players to use this as a primary mechanism for controlling release angle?

In general I've heard dropping the elbow is bad but as long as it's not dropped too much there's still enough space for a power pocket below the chest it seems.

When I was playing, and was active in dg, I had decent distance. When I was throwing a big sweeping Hyzer that would travel very high, ( take things like trees or tennis courts out of play,) The way Marty Peters taught me this shot was by standing tall/ upright and dropping my throwing arm low, Hyzer angle manipulated by wrist. I would just pull on that low angle straight through from low to high and could confidently throw the power Hyzer comfortably out to about 430-450 feet, but I probably added 30-50 feet to the throw with height. I also attribute my ability to throw big spike Hyzer's from Chris Woj, I am sure some of you have seen his video shared on here demonstrating the spike hyzer technique.
When Brodie said that, made think of this instantly.
Chris Woj ( Cwojput) can confirm if reference check is needed.
(I lost and forgot my old OG user name here.)

 

[Sheep]

I think this depends on where your release point is. If you release closer to 9 o'clock vs closer to 12 o'clock these motions or arm angles are going to do opposite things to the disc angles as everything moved 90 degrees(or some variation) and a disc has no static nose, unlike an airplane that has a defined nose.

While I don't think this is incorrect at all, I also think this depends on how you view a few other things in the swing and release as well.

Regardless of where the disc comes out in orientation to your body, it's gonna come out however the disc is setup to come out of your hand based on how you are gripping the disc.

You can pour coffee and hold the soup all you want, but there are other mechanics at play as well and I think part of the overall issue that it comes to from all this work I'm putting into the subject at the moment with testing on players still is that were just drastically over complicating it way way way to much.

I'd get the video up sooner, but after shooting all the high speed stuff and getting more questions. I want to answer more of my questions first and make the video much better than the more half ass version I was going to make, so that all takes time.
And help, cause. I need someone to help with the high speed.

Way over analyzing. Just go throw. 99,9% of us aren't ever going to win 1 dollar on the tour. You don't need all these "serve the pizza," "don't serve the pizza," "pour the coffee," "slap the bass," "choke the chicken," "slap the Slav," "tap dance with the devil," videos. Just go throw and become one with your body. Focus on one element at a time and seek efficiency then move on. Shot shaping is 125.38 times more important than distance. Knowing your discs and your own physical execution is the way to go. With that said, yes, I realize I'm giving advice about not taking advice. But this isn't a logic gotcha game. It's my opinion and I've played since the early 90's. I have never thrown more than 350' and I almost always par or better any course if I'm warmed up well. It ain't that hard.

While I don't disagree with some things being over analyzed, the point of this forum is to discuss things and come up with better solutions. Unfortunately the only solution you have provided is... none.

The largest point of all of these things isn't to be a championship level golfer, its to be a competent golfer for as long as possible without us hurting ourselves while playing, and being able to play at a level that is successful.

So, You get back out there champ and keep throwing those 14 speeds 230 feet with your arm.

Unfortunately the term "release point" has different images for different people. Some think of it as where the arm is on the arm/pull clock face when the disc leaves the arm and others, including me, only think of where on the clock face of the disc is the thumb oriented when it leaves the disc.

Interesting.
But I think a bit of all of this is missing data.
So I'ma keep working on that data and shoot more high speed.

Be handy if you were closer, cause you'd probably be the best to work on this with of anyone in the coaching community. But alas, you're far away.

 

[Nick Carroll]

As an expert in external shoulder rotation (because my arm is addicted to doing it when I throw - I didn't ask for it) I contend that tips like "pour the coffee" are more useful for some people than others. I think some people need to do it more than others to get the disc in an optimal position by the time the disc is released.

The thing to keep in mind is that you rotate your wrist due to muscular action (brachioradialis for supination and pronator teres for pronation) at the elbow, and you rotate your upper arm due to a similar action (supraspinatus for internal rotation and infraspinatus for external rotation) at the shoulder. Supination of the wrist can occur because of either, or both. The muscles in the wrist and elbow cause direct wrist rotation, and the ones in the upper arm and shoulder cause indirect wrist rotation (because the entire arm rotates).

These problems always originate upstream. You just have to figure out where the rotation is coming from. The "pour the coffee" action is more related to the wrist action, and uses a lot of the muscles there (more than described above) because it's a somewhat complex movement to get you to position the disc properly. You need to have the right grip, and ensure the rest of the arm is positioned properly. That's where upper arm rotation at the shoulder can complicate things.

I think it's better to just post a form check for review here, and let the brilliant people here tell you what's wrong. I think it's super easy to misdiagnose some of these problems (having done so myself) but targeted advice can go far.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

As an expert in external shoulder rotation (because my arm is addicted to doing it when I throw - I didn't ask for it) I contend that tips like "pour the coffee" are more useful for some people than others. I think some people need to do it more than others to get the disc in an optimal position by the time the disc is released.

The thing to keep in mind is that you rotate your wrist due to muscular action (brachioradialis for supination and pronator teres for pronation) at the elbow, and you rotate your upper arm due to a similar action (supraspinatus for internal rotation and infraspinatus for external rotation) at the shoulder. Supination of the wrist can occur because of either, or both. The muscles in the wrist and elbow cause direct wrist rotation, and the ones in the upper arm and shoulder cause indirect wrist rotation (because the entire arm rotates).

These problems always originate upstream. You just have to figure out where the rotation is coming from. The "pour the coffee" action is more related to the wrist action, and uses a lot of the muscles there (more than described above) because it's a somewhat complex movement to get you to position the disc properly. You need to have the right grip, and ensure the rest of the arm is positioned properly. That's where upper arm rotation at the shoulder can complicate things.

I think it's better to just post a form check for review here, and let the brilliant people here tell you what's wrong. I think it's super easy to misdiagnose some of these problems (having done so myself) but targeted advice can go far.

Interesting. I don't think I actually have a problem with supination / pronation or internal or external shoulder rotation, at least not an obvious one. I just want to know as many tools so I can take advantage of them when useful, but supination and pronation seem particularly misunderstood and even after this I still feel like a tech disc is very necessary.

I just try to hold the disc roughly parallel to the ground and with my elbow up and lock in a coffee pour, then I choose my upper body angle for the release angle, then I just try to maintain these as I run up and also choose a launch angle that I try to stay on for my reachback and pullthrough. I'm still working on so many things that I haven't messed intentionally pronating or supinating more so I'm trying to get more info to decide how important it is to incorporate.

I have posted a form check here Form critique request which has a link to a playlist of my 3 month long form journey from when I started playing and @sidewinder22 has been very helpful with tips there.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Nice, Neilyo! Glad to hear it. Yeah I think if you have enough natural or trained mobility in the arm and shoulder, you probably don't have an issue with internal or external rotation. Especially if the disc remains on-plane the entire throw. I just think it's easy to misdiagnose this issue, given my research on the issue, and working on fixing it myself. Nose-up is often the disc coming off-plane by the time it reaches the hit, so it's angled upward beyond that of the angle of attack. And while gyroscopic forces will fix the nose up issue some time during the flight, the damage is already done at the hit, in terms of the trajectory the disc ends up flying as a result of that, plus other factors that slow it down, etc. Best of luck to you!