Tech disc test driven development

[Nick481]

Not to sidetrack this too much, but GG smoked everyone in this distance contest, even though some other guys were likely 5mph more arm speed. They had a tough right to left crosswind (not what you want for distance throwing, slams the disc down on high turning lines).

He threw a glidey understable disc super nose down and hyzer which allowed for wind lofting from the right to left wind to gain vertical real estate, then it flips up, loses some lift but holds the slight turn for a while because of his awesome spin fighting the pitching moment, then gets a nice forward penetrating fade at the end. If the nose was higher at release, it would not have maintained underneath exposure for extra wind lofting during the fade portion of flight and also would have experienced more drag sooner.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Not to sidetrack this too much, but GG smoked everyone in this distance contest, even though some other guys were likely 5mph more arm speed. They had a tough right to left crosswind (not what you want for distance throwing, slams the disc down on high turning lines).

He threw a glidey understable disc super nose down and hyzer which allowed for wind lofting from the right to left wind to gain vertical real estate, then it flips up, loses some lift but holds the slight turn for a while because of his awesome spin fighting the pitching moment, then gets a nice forward penetrating fade at the end.

Awesome, thanks for all the info.

I've been doing nose angle tests and turn the key has been the most effective at getting both below 0 and a lot below zero.

If your observations are true and you don't need below 0 for the big turning lines, the way that affects my nose angle technique choice is:
- Pouring the tea strongly somewhat consistently gives me nose neutral with the occasional risk of nose up but rarely below 0.
- Turning the key is more comfortable in some ways to me simply because supination is a larger and stronger feeling movement than ulnar deviation and since I can get well below 0 nose with it, I can do it more softly and comfortably to get 0.

Also, turning the key feels like it gives me some extra grip as supination force helps fingers dig into the rim, so I think I'd still use it as my main cue just not as aggressively, but I can use it to choose to air on the side of risking some nose down instead of nose up.

 

[Nick481]

Awesome, thanks for all the info.

I've been doing nose angle tests and turn the key has been the most effective at getting both below 0 and a lot below zero.

If your observations are true and you don't need below 0 for the big turning lines, the way that affects my nose angle technique choice is:
- Pouring the tea strongly somewhat consistently gives me nose neutral with the occasional risk of nose up but rarely below 0.
- Turning the key is more comfortable in some ways to me simply because supination is a larger and stronger feeling movement than ulnar deviation and since I can get well below 0 nose with it, I can do it more softly and comfortably to get 0.

Also, turning the key feels like it gives me some extra grip as supination force helps fingers dig into the rim, so I think I'd still use it as my main cue just not as aggressively, but I can use it to choose to air on the side of risking some nose down instead of nose up.

I've also had lots of luck with the humerus and forearm rotation methods (key turning etc). I think you'll still want to shoot for negative nose angles for anything but super high distance lines as a good rule of thumb, golf distance s-curves seem to do well in that -2 to -8 range from my experience.

Just want to make sure I'm not giving bad advice haha. I've found for me, I lose lots of power (go from 85mph to ~80mph) getting the nose down on my 360s, so it's a trade-off for me that I'm working to solve still.

 

[Brychanus]

Not to sidetrack this too much, but GG smoked everyone in this distance contest, even though some other guys were likely 5mph more arm speed. They had a tough right to left crosswind (not what you want for distance throwing, slams the disc down on high turning lines).

He threw a glidey understable disc super nose down and hyzer which allowed for wind lofting from the right to left wind to gain vertical real estate, then it flips up, loses some lift but holds the slight turn for a while because of his awesome spin fighting the pitching moment, then gets a nice forward penetrating fade at the end. If the nose was higher at release, it would not have maintained underneath exposure for extra wind lofting during the fade portion of flight and also would have experienced more drag sooner.

Thanks man - not to get too into my own motives on this topic, but part of the reason I'm personally interested in GG is my mechanics have naturally become more and more like some of his over time, and my distance lines of attack and TechDisc data you are describing are closer to his than other pros and one way to obtain distance at lower armspeeds. So I wouldn't generalize to say "everyone should do what GG does (if they even could)," but find him interesting as a relatively special and maybe a form case that is "dying out" at the top distance level even though he's top tier in his form type. IMO it would be a shame not to learn what we can from the interesting parts of his form and how it exploits disc flight characteristics.

I'm suspicious this allows him to throw his lines of choice with less variance in AoA from release to landing, which can help a lot with minimizing the drag that comes with generating lift from positive AoA's at the end of the disc's flight (when descent rate is high).

Just wanted to check: do you mean "suspicious" like you don't trust what you wrote here is true, or that you think what you wrote here is true? Just want to make sure I'm taking away the message you intended.

 

[sidewinder22]

Anecdotally I can tell you I've thrown discs so nose down they went into negative lift. My cue was an external task (rather than internal), to try and "hit the ceiling with the top of the disc".

 

[Brychanus]

golf distance s-curves seem to do well in that -2 to -8 range from my experience.

This is now my most used distance line and I've found the same (at lower armspeed than you).

 

[Brychanus]

Anecdotally I can tell you I've thrown discs so nose down they went into negative lift. My cue was an external task (rather than internal), to try and "hit the ceiling with the top of the disc".

Sounds fun! Help for the wing theory impaired: what flight did that produce/what disc?

 

[Nick481]

Thanks man - not to get too into my own motives on this topic, but part of the reason I'm personally interested in GG is my mechanics have naturally become more and more like some of his over time, and my distance lines of attack and TechDisc data you are describing are closer to his than other pros and one way to obtain distance at lower armspeeds. So I wouldn't generalize to say "everyone should do what GG does (if they even could)," but find him interesting as a relatively special and maybe a form case that is "dying out" at the top distance level even though he's top tier in his form type. IMO it would be a shame not to learn what we can from the interesting parts of his form and how it exploits disc flight characteristics.

You're welcome! I just love to see a discussion on flight physics here. I think the rest of us wish we could throw more like GG - it's hard to think of someone getting more out of their frame more efficiently (physical body vs. distances thrown). Such a good case study in form and flight efficiency.

Just wanted to check: do you mean "suspicious" like you don't trust what you wrote here is true, or that you think what you wrote here is true? Just want to make sure I'm taking away the message you intended.

That wasn't the best word choice on my end, I meant that I think there's a good chance of it but am not 100% sure yet haha.

 

[Nick481]

Anecdotally I can tell you I've thrown discs so nose down they went into negative lift. My cue was an external task (rather than internal), to try and "hit the ceiling with the top of the disc".

That's an awesome cue, I might play around with it in my practice (for my max power 360s where I struggle with nose angle still). I had been cueing throwing upwards with a downward nose, but it seems that your cue would give a more concrete mental connection to the action because of the visual component.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sounds fun! Help for the wing theory impaired: what flight did that produce/what disc?

Reverse air bounce.

 

[Brychanus]

Reverse air bounce.

LOL

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I've also had lots of luck with the humerus and forearm rotation methods (key turning etc). I think you'll still want to shoot for negative nose angles for anything but super high distance lines as a good rule of thumb, golf distance s-curves seem to do well in that -2 to -8 range from my experience.

Just want to make sure I'm not giving bad advice haha. I've found for me, I lose lots of power (go from 85mph to ~80mph) getting the nose down on my 360s, so it's a trade-off for me that I'm working to solve still.

Oh, interesting, when you say golf distance s-curves, what amount of launch angles are you talking about?

 

[Brychanus]

You're welcome! I just love to see a discussion on flight physics here. I think the rest of us wish we could throw more like GG - it's hard to think of someone getting more out of their frame more efficiently (physical body vs. distances thrown). Such a good case study in form and flight efficiency.



That wasn't the best word choice on my end, I meant that I think there's a good chance of it but am not 100% sure yet haha.

No dude you are very clear, I just wanted to make sure I'm reading correctly.

Yeah man I mean we can unironically use me as a resident GG enthusiast because I started much older, more busted, and not body advantaged, which explains my patience for entertaining and milking every single efficiency trick I can possibly learn starting with balanced momentum and posture and ending at muscle, and in that order.

If I had to boil down a lot of what Sidewinder realized that was ahead of its time, it was "balanced efficiency." Now that the new young guns and tech are popping up everywhere, I am hoping there is a lot everyone can learn from each other.

Here's GG annihilating a 585 foot hole.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

More nose down tests:

'no pour' tea (no ulnar deviation)
'unpour' tea (radial deviation)
nose up grip alignment vs standard
max supination maintained

 

[RowingBoats]

More nose down tests:

'no pour' tea (no ulnar deviation)
'unpour' tea (radial deviation)
nose up grip alignment vs standard
max supination maintained

I can appreciate exploring this stuff, but...wind drag caused by moving the disc into the power pocket?!

 

[Nick481]

Oh, interesting, when you say golf distance s-curves, what amount of launch angles are you talking about?

I think mainly a tighter, lower ceiling s-curve that would be more typically used on the course or could work on medium to open fairways I am not sure on the exact numbers for launch angle unfortunately. I need to check with Clint's tech disc numbers for that

 

[Nick481]

No dude you are very clear, I just wanted to make sure I'm reading correctly.

Yeah man I mean we can unironically use me as a resident GG enthusiast because I started much older, more busted, and not body advantaged, which explains my patience for entertaining and milking every single efficiency trick I can possibly learn starting with balanced momentum and posture and ending at muscle, and in that order.

If I had to boil down a lot of what Sidewinder realized that was ahead of its time, it was "balanced efficiency." Now that the new young guns and tech are popping up everywhere, I am hoping there is a lot everyone can learn from each other.

Here's GG annihilating a 585 foot hole.

That was so ridiculous, pretty much a pure golf line and he almost got it to 600. So hard to do and really shows how his spin rate allowed it to hold the shallow turn for a long time without much drift, and the nose stayed more down during the fade to maintain forward velocity.

 

[Brychanus]

More nose down tests:

'no pour' tea (no ulnar deviation)
'unpour' tea (radial deviation)
nose up grip alignment vs standard
max supination maintained

Interesting and thanks for sharing - I will be curious how these data look as you work on your shift balance and mechanics because the interactions between the arm and rest of the body are part of what other people on this forum are getting at, I think. To be clear I am not criticizing you personally here, just a hypothesis to test from the "forward engineering" perspective. I find your presentations concise, easy to follow, and well-organized.

 

[Brychanus]

That was so ridiculous, pretty much a pure golf line and he almost got it to 600. So hard to do and really shows how his spin rate allowed it to hold the shallow turn for a long time without much drift, and the nose stayed more down during the fade to maintain forward velocity.

Yeah love watching him throw pretty much anything. Sonic and Roc shots are awe inducing too!

 

[Brychanus]

I can appreciate exploring this stuff, but...wind drag caused by moving the disc into the power pocket?!

I did have that question too.