The next step.

[Widdershins]

You're really barking up the wrong tree here. Almost all of DGCR understands that progression is the way to more distance.

Hahaha. Then bow down to the God of Progression.

Like religion this must be based on faith because all I read are people claiming it to be true and relying on faith to support it.

Ok, I give you the top 100 players in the world today, none of whom became great by Progression. You tell me there is universal faith in Progression from a group best known for typing on keyboards (with all appropriate love, DGCR).

Hahaha.

Then please explain, to someone wiling to drink the Koolaid of Progression, how long does one need to throw only putters? At what point, at what skill set, can someone pick up a Roc without committing a sin?

If it is not too much then please give me a small glimpse of Heaven. After I do this long pilgrimage of Progression, how much farther will I drive?

 

[Widdershins]

this is something to read mr. shins
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11552
DISC DOWN!

C'mon. That thread is over 100 pages long. Certainly there is something a little more precise than that. Give me your best shot. What source best explains and defends Progression?

 

[Widdershins]

Obvious troll is obvious

Argument for arguments sake? Nay Nay. I give you the truth and the truth can set you free.

Cast aside your putters on that 400 foot hole and pick up the fastest driver in your bag (I know you have one) and chuck it with joy and fury. You know you want to.

Heck, what am I saying? For all the claimed faith in Progression, its disciples (get that disc-ciples?) are secret sinners, guiltily throwing those Nukes and Bosses then telling OTHERS they should stick with putters.

Good form is anything which causes a disc to fly flat down the center of the fairway (so long as it causes no injury to the thrower). There is no single good form. There are multiple good forms, each based on the power and the body types of the individual thrower.

Learning one disc does not stop you from learning a different disc, even if it is a Nuke. Just like learning math does not stop you from learning poetry.

 

[cfair]

Widdershins. Avery and Val Jenkins learned to play at a young age before "modern disc golf technology" and are so good because of it. Nate Doss, Eric McCabe, Garret Gurthie. They all started when they were young and since then discs have made some leaps and bounds in terms of plastics and rim widths.

What you have to look at are the newer generation that are throwing well in order to get a sense of how to teach. Of all the tournies and clinics I've been to every pro (the Jenkins, Jay and Des Reading, Mark Ellis and his Discraft Crew, Nikko, and Feldberg) has had every pro saying "Go get a comet or a stingray and learn to throw that 300'. Then go get some of the slower drivers but don't try to use wider rims until you think you can be competitive."

You can say all you want. But drivers aren't made to be thrown less than 300'. You can argue all you want, but good luck to you noob hyzer.

 

[gdub58]

C'mon. That thread is over 100 pages long. Certainly there is something a little more precise than that. Give me your best shot. What source best explains and defends Progression?

Settle down - based on how sensitive you seem to be about dissenting views I doubt any source would satisfy you.

The point is, a wide-rimmed driver is most effective when you have the arm speed and proper form to take advantage of their capabilities. Sure, you could throw it over and over and over until eventually you may figure out how to throw it well. Up until that point, however, you will not get much out of it and be greatly frustrated.

The approach suggested here (and, believe it or not, endorsed by a lot of "top pros") is to throw slower speed discs until you can get the most out of them before moving on to higher speed, more stable plastic. If the OP is throwing a fairway driver 300' and refers to a beat-up Valk as "plenty stable", then he likely isn't going to get a lot more distance out of a wider rimmed driver.

Overall, you are arguing that "Repeated Trial & Error" is at least equal to "Progression" as a path to success. You are in the minority, but if it worked for you that's all that matters...

 

[Widdershins]

Widdershins. Avery and Val Jenkins learned to play at a young age before "modern disc golf technology" and are so good because of it. Nate Doss, Eric McCabe, Garret Gurthie. They all started when they were young and since then discs have made some leaps and bounds in terms of plastics and rim widths.

What you have to look at are the newer generation that are throwing well in order to get a sense of how to teach. Of all the tournies and clinics I've been to every pro (the Jenkins, Jay and Des Reading, Mark Ellis and his Discraft Crew, Nikko, and Feldberg) has had every pro saying "Go get a comet or a stingray and learn to throw that 300'. Then go get some of the slower drivers but don't try to use wider rims until you think you can be competitive."

You can say all you want. But drivers aren't made to be thrown less than 300'. You can argue all you want, but good luck to you noob hyzer.

Yeah, cfair, all those players you mention can throw a beat up putter down a tight tunnel or a wide rimmed driver very far but NONE of them learned by Progression. The theory did not even exist when they learned the basics of the game.

Is one skill a prerequisite for the other? If so, then tell me why.

Should you learn putting before upshots? Why? They are separate and distinct skills. Should you eat your potatoes before your vegetables? Why? They are all going to the same place.

Starting the game when you are young or old is only the happenstance of when you find it. It has nothing to do with skill development.

You need every shot to succeed. Start today and you are closer to mastering them.

Noobie Hyzer? Hahahaha.

 

[mjoyce]

Yeah, cfair, all those players you mention can throw a beat up putter down a tight tunnel or a wide rimmed driver very far but NONE of them learned by Progression. The theory did not even exist when they learned the basics of the game.

Is one skill a prerequisite for the other? If so, then tell me why.

Should you learn putting before upshots? Why? They are separate and distinct skills. Should you eat your potatoes before your vegetables? Why? They are all going to the same place.

Starting the game when you are young or old is only the happenstance of when you find it. It has nothing to do with skill development.

You need every shot to succeed. Start today and you are closer to mastering them.

Noobie Hyzer? Hahahaha.

How did these top pros not learn by progression if they started playing with putters and midrages and as disc technology increased the progressed with it? Sounds like progression to me. Mastering slower discs gives you the ability to CONTROL faster discs.

Sure anyone could start tomorrow and use the fastest discs out there and over time learn a way to throw them consistantly. However, I would say it's much easier to control a faster driver once you have the ability to throw slower discs with control. Also because faster discs act overstable for slower arms the beginners have a tendancy to use anhyzer release in order to get the faster driver to fly far. The beginner then starts releasing all of his/her discs that way. They then develop a bad form flaw...OAT. So then they think only overstable discs fly right.

 

[cfair]

^^

Yeah, the current pros lived progression. And those that are upcoming pros have said it took years and years to progress. So... yeah.

 

[Uncle Dougie]

Whenever I see older pro's bombing their drives out pass 400', I know they started out with the old discs and worked their ways up. When I see newer top ranked players who bomb 500', they turn and say it's the newer technology. IDK

 

[inourdr]

The bottom line (for the OP) is that if you can only throw a River 300 feet then you shouldn't move up to wide rimmed drivers yet. Yes, progression occurs, however, the OP is not at the point in his game yet to progress to high speed drivers.

 

[emerica1842]

According to Merriam-Webster, a theory is: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another.
The "Progression Theory" is based on the analyzed set of facts that most pros started playing with slower discs, learned to control them, and then moved on to the faster stuff. With that said, not all theories work 100% like they are supposed to, such as the theory of gravity, which does not work the way the theory says on extremely small or large scales. Our "Progression Theory" explains most of the progression of the pros. That's my $.02 on this pissing match.

To the OP, keep pushing your rivers like most have said, also a Striker is probably a good next step. It would be similar to moving from a leopard to an eagle-x.

 

[Triflusal]

Good players started out the same way as everybody else. They got introduced to the game and had whatever odd assortment of discs they happen to start with, including drivers, of course. They flung them around and learned by trial and error and by watching others. The same way you learned. The same way I learned. The same way the folks reading this learned. Not with formal training. Not with someone handing them a lightweight Aviar and teaching them the proper grip and telling them to only throw this disc for the next year before they are ready to move up to a mid.

Understable putters are one of the most difficult discs to master. But there is nothing magical about learning them. It is a different skill to learn to control an overstable putter but not mutually exclusive (so you can figure out that different discs do different things and learn to make the adjustments needed). Every disc is a little or alot different. Learning one helps you learn the next no matter what order you start with.

Wide rimmed drivers do not mask good form. They reward good form while punishing bad. They therefore teach good form. Trial and error, remember? The smaller the margin of error the more that good form is required.

I am not advocating that the perfect starting disc is a Boss or a Nuke (although it would do no harm when mixed in with a bunch of other discs) . But this topic is about a player looking to take the next step in their progression and looking to add distance. Heck a Nuke SS or a Katana or a Blizzard Destroyer might be superb.

This progression theory was invented on the internet, not on the practice fields. How do I know that good players didn't restrict themselves to putters? Because it is contrary to human nature. We find the sport. We love the sport. We become addicted to the sport. We go out and try every disc we can get our hands on.

Ok, let me pose this question: For all of you reading this who were NOT trained by the Progression Method (like, all of you), how many of you really believe it held you back? Does anyone think the only thing holding them back from World titles and fame was they threw drivers too early?

I learned by progression. I was actually going to post form videos soon (mine is kinda janky after winter I need help fixing it) so if you want to see what someones form looks like who has successfully learned from discing down you can if you want. This is not a cock contest for me though. I like to think I can throw decently far, and the people that I started playing with do not throw nearly as far as me and they have all used wide rimmed drivers for their whole career. But this is probably cause I practice and they don't.

Does anyone have a link to the video where feldberg said he taught his students at Oregon how to throw sharks 350'?

also all of this arguing from both sides its pretty much "this is right and i have no proof!!!!" and the other guys is like "No this is right and i have no proof, you are wrong!!!" back and forth. But this thread is useful and may help convince you if you keep an open mind. here is a good thread I suggest, it is long but worth it.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11552

 

[TorreyLaffoon]

This thread is silly. I believe I think I saw the word "religion" in there somewhere actually. Someone please ban that guy or get this thread to the landfill before more bad things happen

To address the progression theory idea, yeah when I first started out I went and bought a speed 12 driver like a month after I started playing. I quickly realized how much of an idiot I was and threw Buzzzes and a stratus x for like 6 months. That's what literally every person who wants to play disc golf should do. Period.

 

[prettyboyfloyd]

Discing down is the best thing I've ever done. Both with distance and acuracy. I'm now doing it trying to learn forehand.

When I started playing two years ago, I could barely throw 200' and my arm/shoulder would kill me after one round. Now I max around 425' (drivers) and around 250-75' (putters). I still start all of my field practice routines by throwing all my understable putters as straight and far as possible.

One thing that doesn't get said enough is that it takes a lot longer than you think to gain distance. Like months if your throwing 3-4 times a week (what I do).

More importantly, I've also learned to play for par, scramble, accept bogeys when I screw up drives, and, most of all, determine my putting style and getting good a that. If there were as many "how to be a better putter" threads instead of driving distance threads we'd all be better golfers.

 

[TorreyLaffoon]

..... If there were as many "how to be a better putter" threads instead of driving distance threads we'd all be better golfers.

/\ /\
Boomsauce.

 

[Triflusal]

If there were as many "how to be a better putter" threads instead of driving distance threads we'd all be better golfers.

putting is a game of muscle memory and mental power, form is very personal and very feel based. There are a couple key characteristics of good putting, but other then those, almost anything goes. Driving is a very complex chain of movements and is very hard to understand and perform. It's no wonder why there are more driving threads, and learning how to putt and learning how to drive are most certainly not mutually exclusive.

cya guyz triflusal out!!

 

[kevinmzane]

Ok OP: Aside from all of the nonsense (and coming from someone who can throw and control long speed drivers very far), it is not going to kill you to pick up a few drivers that are faster and see what you can make happen with them (don't go nuts though). If they don't work out, you can always revisit them later. I believe that gradually working yourself up to higher speeds is greatly beneficial and is very likely more effective than picking up something ill-suited for you and trying to force it to work. The greater leaps and bounds in improving distance come with technique. Of course you will get some extra D with some flippy, super fast "miracle disc" and it might suit you well for a while, but (in my opinion) it could damage the progress that you have been working so hard to make and will be much harder to control. Everyone knows that 30' shorter and in the fairway is a much better place to be. Drivers kick off of trees farther, skip more and often need a lot more room to work.
Regardless of what route you take, I have found that field practice with slower and more unforgiving discs really cleans me up when I am starting to get sloppy.... and practice some putting drills. Adding 10' to your putting comfort zone and building confidence in your short game will save you a lot more strokes than a much longer drive will on most courses (especially if you don't have control of your longer drive)

 

[rocthecourse]

Striker.

 

[prettyboyfloyd]

putting is a game of muscle memory and mental power, form is very personal and very feel based. There are a couple key characteristics of good putting, but other then those, almost anything goes. Driving is a very complex chain of movements and is very hard to understand and perform. It's no wonder why there are more driving threads, and learning how to putt and learning how to drive are most certainly not mutually exclusive.

cya guyz triflusal out!!

I don't disagree with anything you've said. The successful BH throwing sequence is more uniform that putting would ever be. It's just that I've played with many guys who could out drive me and I'd still score lower than them at the end, because they had no short game, and at times badly missed putts.

 

[cfair]

I try to make my putt as much like my drive as possible.