Tournament Software Package

[Doofenshmirtz]

The other app thread made me wonder why the PDGA doesn't develop and software package that can do the following:

· Allow players to keep score via app.
· Have group assignments that let players in group designate scorekeeper, but see their groups scores throughout a round.
· Submit the scores to a server that allows access for live scoring purposes.
· Have live scoreboard that anyone chan check and that updates with each score entry and that uploads to PDGA
· Has display options that would let TD output to LCD monitor (TV) for a score board
· Shows Tee assignments before the round
· Allows editing of scores by TD and TD's designees to add penalties, dq players, correct scores, etc.
· Connected to PDGA database for player and course information, editable by TD in case holes are added etc.
· Handles Registration and flags players who might be in wrong division.
· Allows for speed of play prompts and other TD messages to field.
· Allows TD to start, suspend or halt play and lock and unlock scoring input.
· Has notes for each hole for OB or navigation purposes (would be nice if it could tie into TD entered GPS info keep players from playing from wrong tee).
· Calculates payouts based on selectable payout structures. Calculates fees to PDGA. Allows submission of other prizes/value won by players.
· Displays each players standings live, updated with each score, showing how many throws they are behind the leader.
· Calculates round ratings
· Prompts players to check scores at end of round and digitally "sign" or approve the score for final submission.
· Allows players to score penalty throws and OB and has selectable notes and freeform notes.
· Allows photographs to be taken appended to a particular player and hole for rulings.
· Allows CTP prompts like "Adv. Grandmaster CTP this hole"
· Allows sponsor graphics to be added to the input screen for a particular hole.
· Starts player scoring on correct hole.
· Automatically calculates scorecard playoffs or other non-playoff tiebreakers
· Scores playoffs
· Contains the updated rules and competition manual
· Allows scanning, photograph of backup paper scorecards
· Has a standalone or WiFi mode for areas with no cell coverage

Pie in the sky maybe, but some of these things ought to be doable. It'd be a lot easier decision to sanction with PDGA with an app like this to help run the tourney.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Several of these items are already available offline and some online and some in the new PDGA app but they're all not yet integrated. It's a time and resources limit on the development end and limits in the ability and willingness to use the functions by TDs on the other side if available. There are tech things that have been tried but in some cases, the tried and true manual methods remain more functional such as leaderboards. Many TDs or their team still cannot fully handle Excel and the helpful functions in the PDGA TD report which eventually will go online.

Creating groups, displaying them and tallying scores to prep groups for the next round can be done online. But marking the scores on the leaderboard and shuffling cards is still efficient for TDs and functional to display info to players AND make sure at least one or more players in a group physically visits HQ for the next round to get any important messages and pick up their scorecard. No matter how hi-tech scoring can get, can you really see completely getting rid of paper scorecards as a fail safe backup for loss of power, wifi or cell signals?

 

[ru4por]

Gee a way to make more tournament golfers around me to spend a lot more time on their phone. Sometimes life does not need to be made "easier". Getting away from phone zombies, creating havoc in their quest to make life "easier" is one of the primary reasons I go to the woods to fling plastic at trees.

Really, the game is not broken......it just requires a touch of attention and focus.

 

[biscoe]

Count me among the TD's who do not want electronic scoring to become the default.

 

[DavidSauls]

"Demand" is probably the answer. As in, there's not a great demand for it.

I'd have no interest in it as a player. As a TD, maybe, if it were so foolproof that the time I save not dealing with scorecards and a scoreboard wouldn't be offset by the time I spend with players who couldn't work the app correctly.

Perhaps there's such a thing for golfers. A bigger, richer market---and I'd think this is one case where golf would translate to disc golf pretty well. If anyone wanted to try.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

As a TD, maybe, if it were so foolproof that the time I save not dealing with scorecards and a scoreboard wouldn't be offset by the time I spend with players who couldn't work the app correctly.

... ever the pragmatitst!

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm a believer in the old adage that Nothing is foolproof, because fools are so ingenious.

 

[DavidSauls]

But, at the minimum, I'll hand it to Doofenschmirtz: You've put a lot of thought into the features that such as app would need, if such an app were desired. Kudos for making the effort.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Well, some of it is sort of wishful thinking. It would be nice if one person with a phone could keep the scores and they would be automatically "handed in' and totaled at the end of the round. If the TD got nothing but the scores and didn't have to deal with scorecards it would be a start. My thought is that this is the sort of project the PDGA could tackle to add some value to PDGA sanctioning. The idea came from keeping up with the "live scoring" at an A tier that wasn't really "live." The rest of the features were sort of "why not" add-ons.

 

[DavidSauls]

Technical question---In areas without reliable signal, what is the potential range of Wi-Fi, or is there any other direct communication capability that would work? I know this is uncommon in many places---but since our private course is one of those places, it's always on my mind when considering suggestions for an electronic scorekeeping system.

Or would it be a matter of bringing the phones back to HQ to download the scorecards, retaining some functions but losing the live scoring?

 

[krupicka]

Most hand held devices have Cell, Wi-fi, and Bluetooth. The later two do not have sufficient range to cover a course.

The problem with apps like this is that it takes a good chunk of change to develop, test, harden something like this. With a small niche market like there is not a big enough customer base to get the app down to a reasonable price. Plus disc golfer's are notoriously cheap.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

Count me among the TD's who do not want electronic scoring to become the default.

2nd that.

"oh my battery died mid-round"
"the app crashed and we lost our scores"

Really, the game is not broken......it just requires a touch of attention and focus.

THIS ^

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Or would it be a matter of bringing the phones back to HQ to download the scorecards, retaining some functions but losing the live scoring?

This was my thought. Just connect to WiFi at HQ and give up the other features in such a location. This capability would need to be built in anyway in case the tournament is being held in a dead spot for a particular carrier or in case of a power outage at the tower, etc. Worst case, the TD can just look at the phone instead of a scorecard.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Plus disc golfer's are notoriously cheap.

But they all already have the devices necessary to do this, or at least, enough do to make it work from the TD's standpoint. Further, they seem to be able to come up with tournament entry fees. If a few groups need paper, then that is just a small amount of data entry when scores are turned in instead of the hand checking and recording that is done now.

As to the work of developing the App, I have no answer for that and acknowlede the wishfulness of the idea in my original post. Maybe Tim could tell us what it cost to develop the DGCR app (or just give a ball park or confirm that it is economically feasible). That app already reports scores back to a server and has much of the functionality that would be required for a tournament app. And it is dirt easy to use, really everyone should use it. It is significantly easier than paper scorecards and you don't have to worry about tabulation errors.

 

[DanJon]

Not everyone has a smart phone, especially in Master's divisions.

Or what if only one person in the group has a smart phone? They are then forced to keep score the entire time?

Or if there is no Wi-Fi, said person has to use their data to connect?

Or what if there is no Wi-Fi or available cell service for the TD to use when handing in scores?

Way too many variables to make this work in real life.

 

[Cgkdisc]

We already had a high profile failure of this scoring technology with Rickie's 2-shot penalty for not entering his scores correctly at the Memorial. He had the Udisc live scoring display he could see online during the round to make corrections if he saw his mistakes. The mistake was only caught due to video editing which resulted in the group going back through the holes mentally to confirm the correct scores since video evidence not yet allowed.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Not everyone has a smart phone, especially in Master's divisions.

Most people have smartphones, even in Master's divisions.

Or what if only one person in the group has a smart phone? They are then forced to keep score the entire time?

They can just hand off their phone to the other players, just like a scorecard. If they don't want to, then just use a paper scorecard. If the TD had two paper scorecards to deal with instead of 50 its purpose is still served.

Or if there is no Wi-Fi, said person has to use their data to connect?

Yep. Poor them. A whole megabyte of data, maybe, lost to a disc golf tournament.

Or what if there is no Wi-Fi or available cell service for the TD to use when handing in scores?

Then use paper. Duh.

Way too many variables to make this work in real life.

People just hate change. Seriously, what if no one has a pencil, I mean, who carries pencils around with them? Will they have to not only use the pencil but sacrifice their precious graphite just to play in a disc golf tournament? OMG, what if it rains and the paper gets wet? There is just no way that pencil and paper would work in the real world.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

We already had a high profile failure of this scoring technology with Rickie's 2-shot penalty for not entering his scores correctly at the Memorial. He had the Udisc live scoring display he could see online during the round to make corrections if he saw his mistakes. The mistake was only caught due to video editing which resulted in the group going back through the holes mentally to confirm the correct scores since video evidence not yet allowed.

Is that really a failure? I've seen many players get penalized and have issued numerous penalties for improperly added scores with paper scorecards. Is that a failure of paper scorecards? No system is perfect and the lack of perfection, IMO, is not exactly a demonstration of the failure of the system.

It is pretty easy to make a scoring mistake with a scoring app. But a scoring app like the DGCR one also makes it easier in other ways to attribute scores correctly because, among other things, there is one entry point right next to the name of the player for each hole. Just like with paper scoring, an error is most likely due to failure of the scorekeeper to take care and pay attention when entering the scores.

 

[DavidSauls]

Most people have smartphones, even in Master's divisions.

.

But some of us don't want to carry it on the course, or don't want to use it on the course, or don't particularly relish our cardmates playing with their phones during the round, or don't want to get embroiled in any sorts of technology problems when we're playing disc golf.

It's an interesting hypothetical. If it worked perfectly, as a player I would only see a slight benefit---I wouldn't have to add up the scorecard, which I don't see as a great burden, anyway. Now, if it worked perfectly, from a TD's perspective, it would be sweet.

Count me among the highly skeptical that it would work perfectly---and more willing to deal with the pitfalls of paper than technology, in this instance.

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's more that the technology doesn't always improve the situation versus being a failure only in terms of the effort involved to develop the tech. We were the first (and still only) World Championship in 2001 where TDs from the four courses transmitted round scores from their laptops to HQ (me). We sorted scores and set up groups and transmitted the file to the next TD at the course where that pool was headed for their afternoon round. We had redundant backup if the transmission failed where scores could be called in by phone and I would enter them into the master scoring file. If even phone wasn't possible or needed (last round of the day), the course directors brought the leaderboard by and (s)he called out the scores to enter them in the file and updated the leaderboard for the next day.

To this day, scores are still called over the phone from the course during the day when pools will be playing a second round that day and the board needs to be sorted and grouped for the next round. Even though our scoring file transmission process worked in 2001, the phone for scoring with manual leaderboard shuffling is still seen to be as or more efficient than the effort needed to do it all by app or internet. Note that for tee time rounds in top level events where only one round a day is played by a pool, full live scoring is available on the PDGA site and is used by many groups but it's not yet a requirement to do so.