Trying to learn snap and make it easier for others

[Beat Roc]

Janne (pronounced YAW-nay?),

I have to comment since I have just recently harnessed the power of snap in my drive. First I have to admit I only skimmed portions of your posts and I know how hard it is to put some of this stuff in words.

For me enlightenment was sparked by two things. One was a horrible field session when I was turning over all of my mids and putters (see Help an Old-Timer, drive critique thread). The other a current thread entitled Arm vs. Snap. These two items made me realize that I have two entirely different throws: one off a tee pad and one as an approach. Once I incorporated the snap that I get with a one-step approach into my drive the discs almost magically jump out of my hand with increased power and stay aloft a lot, lot longer.

Granted I alreadly had snap, just wasn't using it from the tee.

Also, this used to be me:

...this explains why many low snap throwers will have monster distance if they grip lock it.

I really haven't analyzed much of what I'm doing now and haven't done any field work recently (probably for fear that I'll break the magic spell!) But for me the key to my transition was grip and hyzering in a smooth plane. For approach shots I have always used a fan/pinch grip with index extended yet slightly bent along under side of rim and 3 fingers under flight plate (bringing the pinky in tighter to the rim with longer throws).

Blake says locked wrist is more consistent, but for me, a more relaxed wrist yields max snap.

Now I compromise with my driving grip. I use a fan/birdie config with index and pinky curled under rim (power) and ring and middle out under flight plate. I can feel (and hear) snap easily. I suspect that I'll be able to work back to a power grip, but again, don't want to break the magic spell. With some practice, I'm also able to feel the snap with different hyzer angles including severe annhyzer.

Honestly, I don't know if grip is really doing this or I'm using it as a mental cue to get my body and arm to do something different.

My personal tips to feel snap (YMMV):
1) 75% power approach throw with mid-range disc
2) no run up
3) fan grip (not tight)
4) short reach back (bent arm)
5) smooth release with loose/relaxed forarm/wrist
6) follow through on plane

Good luck, mmm

BTW played non-home course yesterday and played through a group of 4 guys on an open slightly downhill hole around 340'. In the past I played this hole throwing a HARD hyzer letting disc fade to hole. Thats what most of these guys were doing (some better than others) when I stepped up and threw a flattened hyzer 75% max right at the hole with a seasoned dx teebird. Faded no more than 15' and put me 10' away right behind the pin. They gawked. As I walked to the next tee I realized how two months ago I couldn't have done that, now it felt like a relaxed approach shot. Snap will change your game.

 

[bortimus]

This answers all my questions about forearm movement that I previously posted. Thanks Blake!

 

[JR]

Beat Roc, my name is difficult to describe. The ending ne is pronounced like it is in the word "NExt". The beginning is difficult because I cannot think of a word in English that is pronounced like the the beginning jan of my name. If you know how Hong Kong/Hollywood actor Chow Yun Fat's name Yun part is pronounced or how the Dutch, Czechs, Germans pronounce the name Jan you'll know how my name is pronounced. Swedish, Danish and Norwegian pronounciation of the same name Jan tends to lenghten the letter a unlike we Finns.

I've read the threads you are referring to and congratulations on getting results! Your post was helpful. Thanks. I have refrained from posting more quetions since Blake has his hands full for a while trying to answer my barrage of questions. So far his responses have brought up more questions and reiterated a lot of what I had gathered from reading every post on the forums concerning snap.

I too throw differently and often with two different grips from the tee and on the fairways. Err, and from shule Like the articles suggest free range of motion is good for wrist movement. I've gotten consistently more D from two finger grip than a power grip. But I haven't tried to grip harder than about 60 % with either grip to maximize arm speed. I've come to the end of that road and can't increase D by dumb muscling. Gotta start throwing with the most powerful muscle, the brain

I will have to concentrate on telegraphing my shots since I know for a fact that I've always followed through parallel to the ground and I usually don't throw discs that I can release flat.

I also am not sure about the differences of the grips. I'm fairly confident that other than the freedom of movement of the grip and resulting differences in muscle tension effecting arms speed I can't have radical differences in flight by just changing grips alone. Since I have always let the discs slip out instead of rip out of my hand. I've got a calloused right side of the middle finger to prove it. From two finger grip. I'll have to check different grips once my injury heals with a tighter grip to see the difference. With my good hand I've been able to grip wide rimmed discs much more easily with a birdie grip than with a power grip. I have to do a shootout between those grips. And trying to move my thumb to the center of the disc to judge if i can generate more RPMs to the disc that way.

Snip.

Blake says locked wrist is more consistent, but for me, a more relaxed wrist yields max snap.

snip ends

I can understand accuracy concerns with a loose moving wrist beacause I have seen variations here. I've pulled the disc in a line ending with my hand pointing towards the basket elbow and wrist extended without a follow through. I had the disc in my hand and no it didn't leave my hand even though I used 80-100 % arm speed without using my body and legs standing still. So that I point at the basket as long as I keep my hand still. I also tried to uncoil the wrist fast with my own muscles. Don't do this I injured my hand like this. I've looked at my hand as the wrist uncoils. In these trials I stopped the hand movement sso that I tried to lock my wrist in to neutral position by tensing up my muscles.

As the momentum of the disc tried to move my palm and fingers it ran to a relatively unmoving obstacle. Transferring kinetic energy to my hand an recoiling my muscles and tendons at least up to my shoulder. Like a garden hose jumps unpredictably when water rushes through it at first if you let high enough of a pressure into it quickly enough. Also the speeds I tried this were probably too high for my form so I could not get the disc to keep the same angles going into the point where the disc would normally rip out of your hand.

Beat Roc:

Honestly, I don't know if grip is really doing this or I'm using it as a mental cue to get my body and arm to do something different.

My personal tips to feel snap (YMMV):
1) 75% power approach throw with mid-range disc
2) no run up
3) fan grip (not tight)
4) short reach back (bent arm)
5) smooth release with loose/relaxed forarm/wrist
6) follow through on plane

Janne: This is one of the major things I nee to know. Which tricks to use both mentally and physically to achieve snap. And which steps people have taken and how each of them has felt and what kind of results have they had with the changes?

I have not done 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 similarly. I've tried standing still but progressed to x step after I got some results standing still. I might have done it too early because there seems to be much more to be had. Or the improvements were wasted away because of the lack of 6 at least and probably too loose a grip that allowed the disc to slip. I used the two finger grip initially to keep the muscles as loose as possible. Once I knew how the movement felt it was easier to notice it with a power grip as well. I used a full reach back almost exclusively. I tried to as many things as possible familiar even though I knew that Blake recommends the bent elbow technique. Looking back I know why from experience and agree with Blake.

How loose do you actually grip? Compared to the hardest that you can clench down on a disc? With which grip driving from the tee?

What bugs me is that everyone is talking about a smooth throw and release but do not tell what it entails. Herky jerky in the words of Barry Schulz. That's me. I really used to jerk the hand into full speed quickly in the beginning of the pull from full reach back. Boy what a waste of energy. I can easily halve the movement from back to front and get the same speed. Unfortunately I have no clue how loose or tight the wrist and forearms should be and how hard you squeezw with the fingers. I can't keep my forearm loose if I squeeze hard with my fingers. I can't keep my forearm as relaxed with wide rimmed drivers and Wizards than with old school drivers and mids.

I don't know what other things everyone means by herky jerky other than the increased variations in disc angle when making sudden speed changes in all dimensions. I figure that to drop inaccuracy one needs to do accelerations over time not as quickly as possible to avoid twisting joints off axis as well as on axis. The problem is that I'm not certain how this relates to starting points of acceleration and the needed pace of acceleration to reach best results for shoulders, elbow and the wrist.

How loose are your wrist and forearm muscles and fingers percentage wise compared to your maximum strenght Beat Roc?

I'm glad that Bortimus gained knowledge. So this has already benefitted more people than me. Yay!

 

[JerryS1]

I think the English word to best describe how to pronounce the first half of your name would be YONder.

Jerry S.
DiscGolfCenter.com

 

[JR]

I think the English word to best describe how to pronounce the first half of your name would be YONder.

Jerry S.
DiscGolfCenter.com

Actually no. There is no "o" in my name in the pronounciation. After writing my post I thought of the word young. That is the closest I've heard to my name. Without the g and slightly more accented n.

Janne

 

[JR]

Oh my goodness did I write unaccurately before. I think I have mislead Blake in my descriptions of what I have done and asked incorrectly so that my question can be read to mean two different things. I'm afraid that blake understood my incorrect question to mean different a thing than what I've done.

Let me make sure that you understand what I have done regarding locking my wrist. I did not mean that locking my wrist into handshaking position is what i have always done. When Trying to learn snapping I have tried to both let my wrist uncoil with as relaxed muscles as possible to over the neutral handshaking position and stopping the wrist to handshaking position by tensing muscles as hard as I can.

This question of the way to do it is of secondary importance to me. The prime question and wrist action that I failed to describe clearly was that before trying to learn snapping I threw two years with so tense muscles that the wrist would not coil back during any part of the throw. And I did not get plyometric loading. If I understand correctly. So I was locking my wrist at the full reach back position through to the disc slipping out of my hand. Not just after the uncoiling of the wrist to neutral during snapping of the wrist.

So I'm not sure if Blake understood me correctly. And I'm not sure to which version Blake is referring to when he wrote :" with 0 wrist movement, the tension on the tendons/muscles still happens. your wrist has to be nearly locked in order to truly transfer force to the disc".

Sorry about the mistake and possible confusion.

 

[tchamber]

Read Dave Dunipace's article on bent arm technique, everything you need to know is there. It's much more comprehensive, and easier to reference, than anyone will be able to post here off the top of his head.

Go back to the main DGR page and on the left hand side there should be a link to articles: look for "Distance Secrets" by Dave Dunipace. There are a few other good articles there that will also be able to help.

Go there, read the articles and attempt to implement the techniques outlined there. Then come back and post questions succinctly, one at a time, and I'm sure the people on this board can help you out.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

 

[Beat Roc]

How loose are your wrist and forearm muscles and fingers percentage wise compared to your maximum strenght Beat Roc?

I am suggesting loose grip (40%?) and wrist (very) to get a feel for snap only. Then you can apply it to your drive and know what to shoot for. From the tee my grip strengh increases with throw power. Example, for max D drives (+95% power) I'm gripping hard. For fairway drives, at say 75% power, I probably grip 60-70% of my strength. Likewise, wrist is not "loose" on drives, just not locked. I think I can feel the snap better with loose wrist. Personally, I'm not throwing nearly as hard as I used to, so I'm not as tense and clenched... a good thing I think.

As tchamber points out, Dave's article has lots of info, including a reference to aiming with the "snap" rather than the arm swing. This has come easy for me since my new drive with snap is similar to my long approach technique.

cheers, mmm

BTW Janne, I spent a couple of months throwing LHBH when I injured my right wrist a while back (non- disc related). Never felt totally comfortable accuracy-wise, but it was fun, kept me on the course, and I was surprised how much zip I could put on the disc after some practice (around 250' of golf D). Every once in a while I'll bust out a left-handed shot on a short hole and surprise some people.

 

[Terrence]

This thread inspired me to go out in the rain and practice today. During this practice I had an epiphany, I was throwing (way, way) too hard. I threw three tee shots nosed up and felt progressively irked with watching each disc stall and fade. For the next shot I threw with about 50% power, using one step and a smooth followthrough.

I felt one fluid motion transfer the energy to the disc just before it ripped from between my thumb and finger. I watched in amazement; the disc nose was tilted slightly downward as it hauled ass through the air to the sweetest spot on that fairway. I tried it again with the same result, and my up shot, and every drive after. Today was the first round I threw with the nose intentionally down on every shot that needed it.

 

[JR]

Read Dave Dunipace's article on bent arm technique, everything you need to know is there.

I have read al of the articles many times over before my first post and a couple of times after it as well. There's some great stuff there. And even more on this forum. And still there's some ambiquity on timing and the power used at different stages of the throw. The advice that I've seen given in this thread previously has reflected my experience so far and confirmed my findings. There's some polishing to be done for sure. I really do not know enough to write an article yet. I have to try to learn by fixing my previous flaws as well and see what happens. Before I can begin to think of making a preliminary version. And that has to be reviewed by some one in the know. Or I might hinder people trying to learn snapping by steering them wrong.

The problem is that my throwing arm is so badly hurt that all I can do with my off arm is throw long putts standing still without turning with my legs and hips :-( www.handuniversity.com had an article that said that complete recovery takes 3 months if all goes well. I'm barely on month 2 and have to iron out the other kinks in my technique before I can draw more conclusions. Verification is the key to show the steps people need to take. For a novice one piece of false advice is likely to set them back moths or years. And in the worst case scenario to turn them off the game. I really want to avoid that.

I don't agree with tchamber on the order of events of when I need to start asking though. Asking and thinking is all I can do right now And Blake seemed to be ok on answering so don't censor him. It's all for the greater good of teaching people IMO.

 

[JR]

I felt one fluid motion transfer the energy to the disc just before it ripped from between my thumb and finger. I watched in amazement; the disc nose was tilted slightly downward as it hauled ass through the air to the sweetest spot on that fairway. I tried it again with the same result, and my up shot, and every drive after. Today was the first round I threw with the nose intentionally down on every shot that needed it.

Fluidity is something I'm having hard time of understanding. I don't think it is easy to see for someone that has not felt how it feels. Like me. So trying to see it from videos ain't easy. I have a hunch that the sense of fluidity is easier to notice once one throws slower just like snap. I wouldn't wonder if there also was an amazing difference in the feel of the throw dialed way back in using muscle power from the shoulders to the wrist as long as you get the timing right. Compared to just muscling. When the throw actually goes out at much greater speed of the disc with less muscling. Not from the arm speed but the speed of the elbow exploding from curled to straight.

I'm referring to one time only experience here. I did not notice anything that I would call fluidness in my throw but would not wonder if they were related or the same thing. I'm talking about efficiency or smash factor the results of the used power versus the actual speed of the motion leading to the speed of the disc. .

In my one good try I did not throw the disc as I was indoors. I didn't release the disc so in that way the smash factor was horrible . What I did differently from ever before was concentrating on the steps spinning me around not running towards the target. While similtaneously keeping the arm speed as low as I could waiting for the somewhat faster than usual hip turn to get the disc past my right pec without starting to turn my shoulders much at all before that and at full tilt after that. And from there I did not even need to move my arm much at all. Certainly not at all under conscious guidance since I had so much momentum both wrom weight back to weight forward and rotation from left to right from the toes up to the disc. I quess that I rotated the knees and the hips more open than I usually do.

The key for me was to try be as loose as possible from the shoulder down and try to time the beginning of the unbending of the elbow together with the start of the unbending as violently powerfully but concentrating on the quickness of the motion not tensing the muscles. I mean truly murderous intent trying to hit sombodys nose to the back of their skull ripping motion. I'd also think that the lunge of a coiled snake attacking would be appropriate term of describing the effort.

I was like OMG! Bruce Lee's got nothing on me type of feeling. How on earth did my arm and forearm teleport forward so fast with so ridiculously little power usage compared to what I've been doing?

My hyphothesis is that not only have I been trying to learn and throw with too much muscle tension too early but also too much stiffness in the torso and legs as well with a focus on using strenght not speed too early in the throw. I did also manage a tremendous follow through with this throw without actually trying. It happened accidentally from tremendous momentum and insane quickness of my motion from the shoulder down. Even though I didn't use basically any power from shoulder to elbow the elbow unbending was so quick that it probably propelled the arm to a much higher speed than by normally muscling the throw. Resulting in great acceleration to the snap and through the hit accelerating well into the follow through. From very reggae sloooowwww type maaaaaannnn beginning with my arm.

I tried naturally to tense the wrist to handshaking position and squeezed very hard with my fingers to not break furniture.

I wouldn't wonder if all of you guys with high amounts of snap think that this what you do all the time. The difference was exhilarating to say the least. The difference felt like 50 % more speed to the disc with 70 % less effort. This naturally is colored by the elation So the actual numbers aren't likely to be nearly as high in reality.

Does this sound like your experience after learning snapping? I wouldn't wonder if that try was my first throw with good D and snap potential if I hadn't gorillad the fingers in a death grip and somewhat dialled down leg and torso speed.

 

[MrTasses]

I think it's impossible to feel snap unless you are actually throwing the disc.

I have done the same thing as you (practice in the apartment) and what you are more feeling is proper mechanics and acceleration with a good finish. You can have those and still not get good snap if you have a bad release.

By all means, keep working on your mechanics, though you might not want to be holding a disc while you do it. Proper throwing technique will not allow you to hold on the the disc, no matter how hard you squeeze it. Use a towel instead. It will give you resistance, and if it flies out of your hand you won't have to buy a new lamp.

 

[JR]

MrTasses thanks for the suggestions.

I have felt the motion of snap with and without a disc in my hand. Once I dial arm speed down to about 70 % and relax my muscles. What do you mean by feeling snap? The motion of the wrist, tension of the muscles, both or something else?

I certainly have had improper release and I'm gonna iron that out since I already know what I did wrong. Luckily not telegraphing is straightforward to correct. AFAIK.

I've done in house practice with and without a disc. You need to know your limits or the disc will fly and collide. Unfortunately preventing that is a secondary concern. Releasing the disc helps prevent hand injuries.

I've tried with a towel. With little luck because I can't get the same feeling and grip than with discs. It's too easy to throw with a towel. Although it is good simulation wrt the mechanics. I'm not sure if it'll mess with learning proper timing. YMMV.

 

[Blake_T1]

6. you are over-analyzing it here. the more the elbow bends the more potential extension force you can have. most people extend too early. the back of the disc passing the center of the chest is fine.

7. wrist extension is about transferring force onto the disc. elbow extension is what generates the force to be transferred.

Should the elbow be fully extended before the wrist starts to uncoil or what kind of overlap there should be?

you are thinking of this wrong. you have to pull THROUGH the rip. the way you are wording it seems to break it up into isolated static points, which is impossible. the wrist (can) extend slightly as a part of the continuation of the pulling through the rip.

I think that you absolutely must continue turning shoulders after you release the disc but when to start and at full speed from the beginning?

you should get progressively faster/stronger until the disc is long gone from the hand.

8. legs create the uncoiling which accelerates the upper body and arm. if any of your leg motion doesn't fit into this, then it shouldn't be there.

9. i don't ever really think about it in this way.

10. there are drills that can be done without a disc, but unfortunately, i haven't found a way to convey them only in words. basically, hold your hand wrist down like you are shaking hands with your wrist semi-firm (not too loose, not too tight) and go through a throwing motion nice and controlled/slow but accelerating as you move forward. your wrist will coil from inertia and slightly uncoil as you extend. when you feel it uncoil that is the point you are referring to.

as for footwork, build your x-step from the rip and work backwards.

11. like a slingshot with the disc flinging off of your rip finger. i have very small hands.

12. early release is caused because most people get too far off their body during their throw and/or they have craptastic grip and/or they throw weight back and they've developed an early release to counter-act griplock.

13.

Is it possible that screwing up as royally as I have in other things like off axis torque prevents the effects of snap in throws?

very possible.

sounds like your main problem isn't weight forward. you can throw putters/mids with less weight forward and still get success vs. drivers.

14. it should be getting progressively faster. how fast that is depends on the thrower.

15. referring to the placement of the hand. if you are weight forward, less grip locks happen. don't worry about forcing a tight grip. throw with a looser grip, feel for "when" it should happen, then try another throw with tighter at that point.

16.

what does it mean to have the disc directly behind your hand?

it means that the instant when the disc comes out on a good throw, the back of your hand will be facing the target. read as: the disc comes out when your hand is in between the leading edge of the disc and the target.

17.

Am I overemphasizing the positioning and timing?

i would say you are actually under-emphasizing them. what you are focusing on are very minor details when i believe you really need to attack the big picture first. what is timing? timing isn't about when or where. it's about accelerating. explode late. finish strong.

there aren't very many overly critical positions. disc close to body as it passes by. weight forward. shoulders on plane.

 

[readysetstab]

you are over-analyzing it here

i think this says it all. you're over-analyzing just about everything. the reason that no one expands these lessons into each nano second of the throw is because no one can actually think about their throw that way WHILE throwing. it's better to just work on simple ideas like accelerating through the entire throw and even afterword. if you're doing everything right then the snap will just happen. you can't just decide that you want some snap one day and get it the next because you THOUGHT about it enough. one day it will just feel right. you can't think about how to feel. it just takes time after learning to throw correctly.

you said that you've just started to learn how to throw after a couple years of doing things incorrectly. well, give it time. you're just not quite there yet. if you do what the lessons say to do, you'll get snap. there's no secret that anyone is keeping from you. you want every answer to questions that aren't even important and you want to be able to act them out tomorrow. well, that's not going to happen. if you work on one thing at a time you'll find yourself getting better gradually. that's how it's supposed to be. ever notice that pretty much every pro has been playing for a long time? well, there's something to that.

I'm not trying to discourage you from learning, but it seems that most people here aren't picking up on the idea that this advice might not actually help. they're just answering every question when that might be the worst thing they could do. please just take your time and work on a single element of the throw at a time. snap is a result of doing several other things correctly, so you should probably learn those other things first. they are all on this site to read about and you're saying that it's not enough. well, yes it is. you just haven't been able to get your body to do everything yet. so... you're normal.

 

[discmonkey42]

I play with a guy who can throw 500+. It's an amazing thing to watch. I bug the shit out him when we play because I am no where even close to that distance and this guy is like 5 foot nothing and 110+lbs. soaking whet. While we are friends, he got tired of me asking him to break down his throw one day and put it like this:

It's like learning to whistle. The most anyone can say is to pucker you lips and blow. As a kid, you try this and no whistle comes out. You spit on yourself and others and can't whistle for shit. You ask your parents and siblings and they all tell you a variation of the same thing, just pucker your lips and blow. Then one day, after spitting on everything, you accidentally whistle. You now know what it feels like. You can't hit certain notes, but you can make that whistling sound. After that point, hitting those notes is relatively easy the more you actually whistle. Now, as an adult, you can whistle an entire song. No one can quantify where your tongue and teeth and lips need to be to whistle that song, you can just do it. No amount of instruction or articles or teaching can teach someone to whistle that song. They have to start with the basics of "pucker and blow" and then through their own trial and error just kind of figure it out. Eeryone I know with monster snap explains it this way. One day they just "figured it out". Once it's figured out, you can do it at will and can't imagine not being able to do it. Just like whistling.

 

[JR]

This is great stuff. Thanks Blake.

6. you are over-analyzing it here. the more the elbow bends the more potential extension force you can have. most people extend too early. the back of the disc passing the center of the chest is fine.

Janne: I seem to remember Dave Dunipace saying that over 90 degrees of elbow bend gives less power than 90 or less degrees. Maybe the quickest strogest and most athletic people can have more bend than mortals like me. I don't start the elbow bend before the rear of the disc passes my right side.

Should the elbow be fully extended before the wrist starts to uncoil or what kind of overlap there should be?

you are thinking of this wrong. you have to pull THROUGH the rip. the way you are wording it seems to break it up into isolated static points, which is impossible. the wrist (can) extend slightly as a part of the continuation of the pulling through the rip.

Janne: I certainly didn't mean to convey that there wouldn't be momentum in a throw and that body parts weren't constantly moving. I was just trying to find a reference for when to start different parts of acceleration. For practice purposes. For something for the brain to lock on to honing different parts of mechanics and trying to find proper power usage for each part. I don't think anyone could concentrate on everything at once. I've found it helpful to train for each motion and concenrate on that one thing only at a time to get the feeling of what kind of differences there are in speed, efficiency, motion, muscle tension and in some cases D.

Pulling through in combination with your reply on elbow unbending might be revelatory for me. Did you mean that the elbow should continue unbending after the disc has already ripped out of the hand? If so that's a totally new piece of information for me. I assume this is the way to do it if one thinks of continuously accelerating during the snap through the hit and 2" after the hit. I had tried to do acceleration after the hit with only the turning of shoulders.

So is the proper way to accelerate after the hit to use both turning of the shoulders and unbending of the elbow? Should the elbow extend to straight 2" after the hit?

Did I read too much between the lines and were you thinking of something else and I went on a tangent drawing way too many assumptions based on previous false interpretations? Sure feel like it There was a long line off mule like animals and umptions in a row from me

Blake: you should get progressively faster/stronger until the disc is long gone from the hand.

So starting from whichever starting speed one should be smooth in the rate of acceleration past the right pec into whereever the elbow should unbend? After the hit I hazard a quess. I'll have to try different starting speeds and rates of acceleration then.

11. like a slingshot with the disc flinging off of your rip finger. i have very small hands.

Janne: Unfortunately that gives me no clue as to what king of sensations I get from my nerves to look for a clue for what to look for in a succesful throw. Luckily D speaks for itself when it happens. After succeeding I have to try to concentrate on the feeling to try to be able to convey it into words. And trying to think of steps for people to look for the motion and the feeling. In this case Nike is likely right. I'll quess that I just have to do it.

How much easier for you is it to feel the snap with older drivers with thin enough rims for your fingers than with modern wide rimmed drivers? For me it seems logical to train with Gazelles Eagles and the sort to minimize the trouble of trying to achieve good grip from uncomfortable poitions with the fingertips.

13.

Is it possible that screwing up as royally as I have in other things like off axis torque prevents the effects of snap in throws?

very possible.

sounds like your main problem isn't weight forward. you can throw putters/mids with less weight forward and still get success vs. drivers.

Janne: My bet is not telegraphing poor finger squeezing up to now and less than optimal grip compared to the size of the disc and my hand. Timing seems to be the key issue of the highest priority compared to toher factors. With harder and more acceleration at the rip continuing way harder to the follow through than I had thought. Consider my brain reprogrammed to trying to see what happens with this kind of change. Not throwing nose down isn't too helpful either I suppose. Switching to X Storm in practice to get things right and eliminating at least a part of my probelms with the grip.

Any other suggestions for eliminating things that mask the feeling of snap other than what I ask later in this post?

15. referring to the placement of the hand. if you are weight forward, less grip locks happen. don't worry about forcing a tight grip. throw with a looser grip, feel for "when" it should happen, then try another throw with tighter at that point.

Been there and done that. The timing really is the most difficult thing for me to get right. I quess that only practice will tell me exactly what the right time is. Judging from the motion blurr of people snapping, hitting and following through with three different positions of the hand and the disc in many frames on DVDs the timing happens during in under 3 hundreths of a second. Possibly the right timing happens during milliseconds. This is not easy to get right and I don't see how anyone could think of such tight timeframe. And simultaneously try to concentrate on what it feels like. Herein lies the problem of conveying it to others in word i quess.

16.

what does it mean to have the disc directly behind your hand?

it means that the instant when the disc comes out on a good throw, the back of your hand will be facing the target. read as: the disc comes out when your hand is in between the leading edge of the disc and the target.

Janne: Hello! This is a revelation to me. Which part of the hand is between the disc and the basket? I can'n see how it could be the palm since the disc would have to gain more speed than the hand and would have to go throught the hand. This might be the greatest thing that I've done wrong. At which position of the disc is the hand at? I've gripped the disc so that my hand is between the leading edge of the disc and the basket from rach back until I've extended my elbow towards the basket and the wrist is fully coiled. From there I've let the wrist uncoil to handshaking position and only there the disc rips. And then move to follow through with the shoulder muscles under conscious guidance plus from momentum from other parts. At the hit my grip is at 3 o'clock and the basket is at 12 o'clock. The leading edge has been leading the hand from the middle of the unbending of the wrist.

At the rip my grip is not at 12 o'clock as I think you mean. Now I understand better what it meant in one of the articles to feeling the disc pressing against the palm. I was always confused about what this meant. If this is right I still don't have a clue how the disc can rip out of my hand unless I really accelerate way harder than I have so far.

With enough sideways motion of the arm and forearm I could quess that the rip would happen when the hand points to slightly left of the basket. While the wrist hasn't unbent completely. Then I could understand the disc to press agaist the palm. while the arm/forearm/hand is moving to the right it follows fractions of a secind later that as the wrist has uncoiled some more the disc would have moved away more form the palm to at some point colse in time from here to ripping out of the fingers. The exact sequence of motion is very difficult for me to understand. Therefore I do have a problem understanding what really happens at the rip.

If the hand is leading the disc it probably doesn't matter much if the wrist is bent a little or none at all. What I can't get my head around to is what happens at the fingers if the hand should stay in front of the disc a little while after the rip has happened.

Does the disc ripping happen because the arm/forearm/hand accelerates so quickly that the fingers can't kep the grip on the disc? This way I can understand the motion of the disc parting with the hand while the hand is in front of the disc leading the way towards the basket at 12 o'clock. This just does not seem to be what I had understood from the articles. I have in my head an idea that disc forces the fingers apart. Not the fingers sliding away from grip position to off the disc.

How wrong am I and where's my misunderstanding? Or did I understand the articles right and the text is a little off?

Regardless of what happens shouldn't a good acceleration before, during and after the hit rectify my problems as long as I accelerate fast enough and keep the back of the hand towards the basket as long as I can? And try different timings of squeezing my fingers and locking my wrist to handshaking position.

Boy do I have a lot to try out when I heal enough to be able to throw. I'm overjoyed. I have no problem realizing just how f worded I've been. From the lack of D this was obvious so I had adjusted to that already. Not knowing what to change was my source of irritation.

Thank you so much for giving me direction towards with to go in training. After I get practice in and start getting results (knock knock) and the feeling of snapping down with correct flight and D I'll try to come up with ideas for people to try in exercising. To make learning a snap. Boo I know. That was lame

Janne

 

[JR]

you are over-analyzing it here

i think this says it all. you're over-analyzing just about everything. the reason that no one expands these lessons into each nano second of the throw is because no one can actually think about their throw that way WHILE throwing.

Janne: I agree that it is impossible for me and probably everyone to concentrate on everything during the throw. I'm not trying to do that. Just concentrating on what I need to develop is the only thing I concentrate on and try to feel. It is doable even though I can't feel everything every time. Probably a lot never.

you said that you've just started to learn how to throw after a couple years of doing things incorrectly. well, give it time. you're just not quite there yet. if you do what the lessons say to do, you'll get snap. there's no secret that anyone is keeping from you. you want every answer to questions that aren't even important and you want to be able to act them out tomorrow. well, that's not going to happen. if you work on one thing at a time you'll find yourself getting better gradually. that's how it's supposed to be. ever notice that pretty much every pro has been playing for a long time? well, there's something to that.

Janne: I don't think that there is a conspiracy to keep knowledge from people. If there were I wouldn't have gotten replies right? I know that there are a lot of problems to get rid of and a lot things to try in practice before I get proper throwing technique. There's no doubt. It's just that I haven't seen advice on a breakdown of things to train. A great deal of steps have been lined out but to me it seems that a couple of steps have been overlooked. And obviously I have read the articles wrong or there's some info missing since I've gotten a lot of advice on doing a great many things way differently from what I've been doing so far. That's absolutely fabulous. have to train with the new ways of doing things and seeing the difference in results. I'm not in a hurry to learn. I realize that mu work cut out for me and it'll probably take at least the summer to do all of this. I will once I can throw again.

I'm not trying to discourage you from learning, but it seems that most people here aren't picking up on the idea that this advice might not actually help. they're just answering every question when that might be the worst thing they could do. please just take your time and work on a single element of the throw at a time. snap is a result of doing several other things correctly, so you should probably learn those other things first. they are all on this site to read about and you're saying that it's not enough. well, yes it is. you just haven't been able to get your body to do everything yet. so... you're normal.

Disagreed. I have received a lot of useful info on what to train for. Naturally I'll have to train every single detail till they work. To know what to try in training is important. That I've received from everyone. Please don't try to tell people not to let me know what I need to change. I know that there's a lot to train for and not everything can be learnt at the same time. I definitely will straighten out the things before the snap don't worry. And see what happens then and only then get back to snapping if it is needed if the flight and the D does not happen already.

With best regards,

Janne

 

[JR]

Discmonkey 42, teaching the basics of whistling is easy and exentending from the first whistle to altering pitch is easy. It's just a matter of telling of how hard to pucker and how hard to blow and don't forget to tell 'em to slightly pull the cheeks inwards. You don't need to move your tonque at all to make a whistle. Then it's a matter of seeing how the persons try and telling them how their try differed from what's needed. In the motion of the lips and cheeks postionwise and the strenght of the lips and the quickness of the blowing. Easy! As long as the person has enough power in the lips and lungs and guidance capacity to make all the things work in unison. Nothings gonna happen if the logistics aren't there and the learner just has to exercise the power.

Not all things are that hard you know. For everyone I mean. I don't think that whisling is a good analogy here since snapping is much more complex than whistling though. I'm not at all sure that with time and effort snapping couldn't be described so that it makes learning easier than it has been for me. Even though a complete cookbook of achieving snap easily that works for anyone is possibly unachievable. It is not a reason to not to try to make things as easy as possible for those who can't easily to get guidance from those who know how to snap and teach it as well. Teach to some degree at least so that the pupil has at least a higher possibility of learning the rest by practice. That's my goal along with improving my throwing. Only time will they how these things progress.

Since nobody knows how different people learn I think that it is good to try to offer as braod a spectrum of teaching tools as possible. Some learn by reading some by listerning some by seeing some by doing and some by forming their own theories and some not at all and some by whatever means and combinations. Ask teachers if you don't believe me. There's two in my family.

Janne

 

[discmonkey42]

Discmonkey 42, teaching the basics of whistling is easy and exentending from the first whistle to altering pitch is easy. It's just a matter of telling of how hard to pucker and how hard to blow and don't forget to tell 'em to slightly pull the cheeks inwards. You don't need to move your tonque at all to make a whistle. Then it's a matter of seeing how the persons try and telling them how their try differed from what's needed. In the motion of the lips and cheeks postionwise and the strenght of the lips and the quickness of the blowing. Easy! As long as the person has enough power in the lips and lungs and guidance capacity to make all the things work in unison. Nothings gonna happen if the logistics aren't there and the learner just has to exercise the power.

Not all things are that hard you know. For everyone I mean. I don't think that whisling is a good analogy here since snapping is much more complex than whistling though. I'm not at all sure that with time and effort snapping couldn't be described so that it makes learning easier than it has been for me. Even though a complete cookbook of achieving snap easily that works for anyone is possibly unachievable. It is not a reason to not to try to make things as easy as possible for those who can't easily to get guidance from those who know how to snap and teach it as well. Teach to some degree at least so that the pupil has at least a higher possibility of learning the rest by practice. That's my goal along with improving my throwing. Only time will they how these things progress.

Since nobody knows how different people learn I think that it is good to try to offer as braod a spectrum of teaching tools as possible. Some learn by reading some by listerning some by seeing some by doing and some by forming their own theories and some not at all and some by whatever means and combinations. Ask teachers if you don't believe me. There's two in my family.

Janne

Wow, you actually succeeded in overanalyzing an anecdote aimed at showing you the value of not overanalyzing stuff. I'm impressed.