Why is sand bagging tolerated?

[dk59]

Around here TDs have pretty well eliminated the merch for AMs. We run Trophy only events for the AMs with sweet players packs. Nobody is bagging to win merch that they sell to earn cash. It was a little controversial at first but we've been doing it for 2 years now and we're seeing some of our AMs finally move into PRO. Mission accomplished. The sandbagging is a byproduct of a flawed system.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

thanks everyone for the kind words, I cant believe I thought I witnessed sand bagging. my next tourney I will simply admire good tournament strategy and try not to be delusional. be sure to check out my next thread, I will be asking if its okay to keep found disc. thanks guys

Troll on !

 

[AndyJB]

Around here TDs have pretty well eliminated the merch for AMs. We run Trophy only events for the AMs with sweet players packs. Nobody is bagging to win merch that they sell to earn cash. It was a little controversial at first but we've been doing it for 2 years now and we're seeing some of our AMs finally move into PRO. Mission accomplished. The sandbagging is a byproduct of a flawed system.

This is awesome to hear. Proof right here that trophy only pays off. Next season I should have some more free time and WI seriously consider running three or four events in this format and see how they are received. Colorado always gets amazing turnouts, so I can see it happening here.

 

[JC17393]

Around here TDs have pretty well eliminated the merch for AMs. We run Trophy only events for the AMs with sweet players packs. Nobody is bagging to win merch that they sell to earn cash. It was a little controversial at first but we've been doing it for 2 years now and we're seeing some of our AMs finally move into PRO. Mission accomplished. The sandbagging is a byproduct of a flawed system.

I've been running events this way for 10 years and filling. It absolutely can work anywhere. My motivation wasn't to "correct" sandbagging so much as eliminate the appearance of it. If a player is playing where their rating puts them, and they're not getting heaps of prizes (culled from collected entry fees) in doing so, then who has a right to complain?

The goal shouldn't be to have ams move to pro, IMO. It should be to have players playing where they belong skill-wise, and never have a situation where they feel uncomfortable doing so. If the lack of prizes motivates players to practice and improve and move to pro where they can win something, great. If the result is players peak at a 940 level (or a 920 or 880 or 835 level) and play MA1 (or MA2 or MA3 or MA4) forever, so be it.

If I were the tournament czar, every event would be ratings-based and a player's choice would be to play their rating-determined division or Open. That's it. So if they're rated for MA2, they can't play MA1 until their rating rises above the cut. Clearly a pipedream never likely to happen, but what can you do?

 

[biscoe]

My perspective is evidently incorrect according to some. I do not agree that no one can be considered a bagger in amateur age restricted divisions.

They are all operating within well defined parameters so they are free to play where they are eligible. That does not mean that there are not guys who for one reason or another exhibit what i consider poor taste and play in age based am divisions where they have no competition. Personally i would find it embarassing.

 

[1978]

My prediction:

Increase in trophy only tournaments will lead to a decrease in growth of non-Innova/Discraft companies. Payouts are still the best way to increase trial of new discs or companies.

 

[JC17393]

My prediction:

Increase in trophy only tournaments will lead to a decrease in growth of non-Innova/Discraft companies. Payouts are still the best way to increase trial of new discs or companies.

IMO, player packs can be just as effective to that end.

Also, all of these companies seem to have their best success marketing new discs with their own branded events...Ace Race, Trilogy Challenge, Birdie Bash, etc.

 

[juju]

Am scam'd

 

[DiscFifty]

Clearly the PDGA has guidelines for ratings as evident in this file available on their site:

http://www.pdga.com/files/2014 PlayerDivisionGrid.pdf

Advanced MA1 (required for 935+)
Intermediate MA2 < 935
Recreational MA3 < 900
Novice MA4 All < 850

Advanced MM1 - ML1 do not have any ratings restrictions. I do agree there is potential for bagging in these divisions...but tough...we're old. lol..

All they have to do is look up the player's ratings either automagically at online sign up or in person the day of to make sure the player is not playing in a division too low for their ratings.

For non pdga players, I think a quick google search on their "full name pdga event" sorted by date should bring up their last tournament and they can enforce ratings based on that. Should be good enough. (It was easy to do this before I replied.)

 

[`cjc]

..there should only be one division.

..problem solved!

 

[Stardoggy]

I've always wondered why rated players aren't forced to play in their ratings-based division, and all unrated players aren't forced to play in the highest available division, be it am or pro. I would think it would get more players enrolled in the PDGA, and eliminate the possibility of sandbagging. Maybe I'm just too simple and am missing something.

 

[DavidSauls]

If I were the tournament czar, every event would be ratings-based and a player's choice would be to play their rating-determined division or Open. That's it. So if they're rated for MA2, they can't play MA1 until their rating rises above the cut. Clearly a pipedream never likely to happen, but what can you do?

I may not happen overall, but I played in an event like this a few weeks ago.

It was run by the PDGA at the Director's Cup, and I heard positive things from some of the players---all of whom are also, at other times, TDs.

 

[Hampstead]

It happens, work on your game worry less about others.

Some people play certain courses better than other courses. Sometimes, a person could shoot a 1000 rated round on a familiar course and 920 on one they don't know as well. Maybe you happened to catch them on their home course.

The system isn't perfect and everyone isn't equal.


Oh yeah, it happens and maybe the complainers should work on their own game and worry less about others.

 

[DavidSauls]

I've always wondered why rated players aren't forced to play in their ratings-based division, and all unrated players aren't forced to play in the highest available division, be it am or pro. I would think it would get more players enrolled in the PDGA, and eliminate the possibility of sandbagging. Maybe I'm just too simple and am missing something.

"Forced" would be the answer. Players like to be given a choice, within reason, as their motivations for choosing a division vary widely. TDs want as many players as possible to attend their events, so are reluctant to discourage them. The PDGA, I think, feels much the same.

 

[scarpfish]

Disc-Dogs also…

The one problem I see here, although I don't play many tournaments, is that a lot of people play above their rating. Lots of ~900 playing AM1 & ~850 playin AM2, when in reality they should play down a division. If you play in the correct division, then there is not much to complain about.

In my experience, the people who play up a division aren't the ones doing the whining about sandbagging. Some players would rather play with people who can beat them than be babysitters for those in the ratings appropriate division whose lack of tournament etiquette and knowledge of the actual written rules leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Stardoggy]

"Forced" would be the answer. Players like to be given a choice, within reason, as their motivations for choosing a division vary widely. TDs want as many players as possible to attend their events, so are reluctant to discourage them. The PDGA, I think, feels much the same.

I'm assuming you're speaking more to the non-PDGA members than the Rec player that would be forced to play Rec instead of Int?

It's also my belief that if you take the monikers off the divisions (Adv, Int, Rec, Novice), that players wouldn't care quite as much about what division they were playing in. The stigma of being called a Rec player is a turnoff for some.

 

[bballr4567]

Shoot, I got a mild sandbagging comment when I got 6th, yes, 6th in our recent tournament. Had been playing 830-840 rounds and busted out a 868 and 878. Only thing different is I made my putts because I have been practicing in the backyard doing at least 100 putts a day.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think we could get a rule passed where a double hop upwards was not allowed unless a player's division or the one above it was not offered. So player of any age under 900 could not play Advanced if Intermediate or Rec were offered. Player under 850 could not play Intermediate if Rec or Novice were offered. And, player under 935 could not enter Open if Intermediate or Advanced were offered.

 

[JC17393]

I may not happen overall, but I played in an event like this a few weeks ago.

It was run by the PDGA at the Director's Cup, and I heard positive things from some of the players---all of whom are also, at other times, TDs.

I was there too, David.

That's where my giving players the option to play Open no matter what comes from, actually. Being a Blue-rated player who would have preferred to play Gold (and crushing Downes ) and was denied kinda stuck with me.

 

[WhiteyBear]

I think we could get a rule passed where a double hop upwards was not allowed unless a player's division or the one above it was not offered. So player of any age under 900 could not play Advanced if Intermediate or Rec were offered. Player under 850 could not play Intermediate if Rec or Novice were offered. And, player under 935 could not enter Open if Intermediate or Advanced were offered.

How about a separate division for those without a rating or current PDGA member? Get rid of the outliers all together, and let them play for a $5 entry fee with no payout and no players pack. Unless they want to play Open.