Post-production Hot Stamps are Illegal

[mostlynorwegian]

True, for an honest player it would be difficult if not impossible to call a disc overweight. However, not all players are honest (unfortunately) and some look for any advantage they can get....so I could see a player claiming another players disc as being overweight. Here's a scenario that I could see happening.....Player A is throwing their distance driver 350ish feet and out-throwing the rest of the card by 50 feet. Player B is annoyed that they aren't getting that kind of distance and Player A is beating them score-wise. Player B gets an idea....they ask to see Player A's driver stating they want to confirm it is a legal disc (which they have a right to do so). Once they hold it, Player B declares the disc to be too heavy and therefore illegal. Now it is upon Player A and the other cardmates to know the rule and that Player A can continue to use the disc (with possible penalties) until the legality is decided by the TD. Unfortunately, most players would believe the disc cannot be used at all until a decision by the TD is made.

To respond to that scenario if it were to involve me.
I know my bag. And the disc you want to dispute has a pen written weight of 171. Shove off.

 

[txmxer]

Wouldn't you need to have a PDGA approved calibrated scale?

They relegated officiating the issue to the TD. They didn't say how to officiate.

That said, it is selective enforcement.

Hard to point at players in regards to selective enforcement of it everyone does it.

 

[BillFleming]

To respond to that scenario if it were to involve me.
I know my bag. And the disc you want to dispute has a pen written weight of 171. Shove off.

Anyone can write any weight they want to on a disc. That doesn't make it the actual weight.

 

[BillFleming]

"Player B gets an idea....they ask to see Player A's driver stating they want to confirm it is a legal disc (which they have a right to do so)."

It's always fun reading your scenarios Bill. Politely disagreeing. I don't think there is an implied or codified right to do this.

You are right. There isn't a rule that a player has the right to handle another player's disc. But....a player doesn't have to handle/touch/etc another player's disc to call it illegal.

813.01 Illegal Disc

F. A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.

So a player just has to question the legality of the disc for it to be illegal unless subsequently approved by the Director. Which is even worse.

Scenerio: Player A to Player B: I believe that disc in your bag is illegal because it is overweight. Player B: it is written (or stamped) on it that it is 171 grams so it is legal. Player A: But anyone can write (or stamp) a weight on the disc; that doesn't make it so. I believe it is overweight and illegal.
Disc is now, per the rule, illegal unless the Director says it is legal.

The rule has a lot of room for abuse.

 

[BillFleming]

Wouldn't you need to have a PDGA approved calibrated scale?

I'm not a TD, closest I came to that was as a Course Director (assistant to the TD). If someone came to me challenging another player's disc weight, I would first ask them what proof they have that the disc is overweight. The burden of proof should be on the player making the complaint; that would fall under fairness....prove to me you just aren't complaining to get an advantage. Then I would look for an embossed weight; if there is one I would accept that. If the player complaining just says it looks overweight or feels overweight, I would hold it along with a comparable disc that I know the weight of and see if the weight seems to be correct. I don't carry a scale and it is doubtful any players do. Without the complainant or me having a scale it is all a judgement call and a TD just has to use their best judgement at the time.

 

[biscoe]

The rule has a lot of room for abuse.

But somehow in 25 years of running events of all levels I have never seen nor heard of it being abused so much as once.

 

[BillFleming]

But somehow in 25 years of running events of all levels I have never seen nor heard of it being abused so much as once.

True. I've never heard it (illegal weight) called in any tournament I've been in. That doesn't mean it can't be abused....it just hasn't been yet. I think players won't call it because the burden of proof would fall back on them and they wouldn't be able to prove their claim....which in turn would make them look like they were poor sports or 'cheaters' trying to get an advantage on others.

But that is about disc weight. Calling an disc illegal does happen. It happened to me. I'm in Arizona, I did an upshot with my putter and it hit a tree. Unfortunately, the tree had thorns and one went into the flight plate, through the disc. I pulled the thorn out and a player called the disc illegal due to it having a hole.

813.01 Illegal Disc.
E. A disc which is cracked or has a hole in it is illegal.

We had a discussion (politely) about it and after checking the rule, realized there wasn't any mention regarding the size of the hole....just that there is a hole. Luckily, I had a second putter, so I didn't use the damaged one. We discussed it with the TD and he felt it was still legal since the hole was minor and looking at the disc, you couldn't see through the hole so it appeared to just be a scratch at immediate glance. (Basically, if we hadn't told him it was a hole, he would never have known/thought it was one).

That led us 'down the rabbit hole'....what if I had left the thorn in the disc and just trimmed it down even with the flight plate? But the conclusion was 'a hole is hole even if it is plugged'.

 

[TheOtherBill]

Had a buddy pull his main putter out of his bag during a tournament because it hit a Mesquite tree spike hard enough to penetrate it through. I wouldn't count on too many people doing the same, however.

 

[araytx]

You are probably right. I'm much more laid back and casual in the way I see and handle minor rules violations. I make a mental note of it and see if it repeats, looks intentional, or is just ignorance to a rule and then mention it to the player off to the side if I feel there was no ill intent involved. I try to be diplomatic and respectful and avoid angry card energy. I don't enjoy having to referee my card at times, but for the most part it's a non issue. And there's a major difference in whether I call something at a league round verses an A-tier, though there probably shouldn't be, it's probably environment differences. Some people are straight by the book and I get that, and some people let stuff slide and focus on their own game and I get that too.

I think a lot of players are like you; however, when someone asks the RC something to the effect of "what does this rule mean?" or "what is the rule for ____?' or "How should _____ situation be enforced?", the correct response from the RC is to give them exactly that. The RC shouldn't say. "well if I were in that situation, then I'd..."

Couldn't a bad actor question every disc in a competitor's bag for being overweight? All discs would then be illegal for play until approved. Without a scale on site, it would be up to the TD to make a judgement call.

I hope no one would actually do that, but it seems possible.

813.01 F does not say until; it's "unless."

 

[mostlynorwegian]

Anyone can write any weight they want to on a disc. That doesn't make it the actual weight.

Well, the anyone in this particular instance, and which provoked a response in this particular world. I do actually weigh my discs, and do mark the CORRECT, and actual weight.
Honestly. Throw better if you think this disc is competitively giving me an advantage. I've been watching your throws, and they keep on missing what you think you got in em. Your form is plainly off today.

 

[Countchunkula]

813.01 F does not say until; it's "unless."

Yep, reading comprehension fail on my end. Mike already clarified that point.

 

[BillFleming]

Well, the anyone in this particular instance, and which provoked a response in this particular world. I do actually weigh my discs, and do mark the CORRECT, and actual weight.
Honestly. Throw better if you think this disc is competitively giving me an advantage. I've been watching your throws, and they keep on missing what you think you got in em. Your form is plainly off today.

My form is off most days....the discs just refuse to go on the line I tell them to use.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

 

[Sewer bill]

You know YOU are "They", right?

Rules are enforced by the players.

Yeah but who wants to be that guy at the start of a league or tournament to show up with a triple beam and an approved weight spreadsheet.

But seriously these things shouldn't be on the players and players shouldn't have the ability to dispute them.

 

[Steve West]

Yeah but who wants to be that guy at the start of a league or tournament to show up with a triple beam and an approved weight spreadsheet.

But seriously these things shouldn't be on the players and players shouldn't have the ability to dispute them.

You're right, the players shouldn't be (and aren't) asked to bring a scale.

I disagree about taking away the ability to dispute discs. It would be easy to hide an illegal disc from a TD, but would you really want to have no recourse if one of your card mates pulled out an Aerobie Pro Ring and fired off a 1,333 foot drive off the tee?

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

........would you really want to have no recourse if one of your card mates pulled out an Aerobie Pro Ring and fired off a 1,333 foot drive off the tee?

Meh, first tree and that parties over.

 

[Sewer bill]

You're right, the players shouldn't be (and aren't) asked to bring a scale.

I disagree about taking away the ability to dispute discs. It would be easy to hide an illegal disc from a TD, but would you really want to have no recourse if one of your card mates pulled out an Aerobie Pro Ring and fired off a 1,333 foot drive off the tee?

Honestly it's already beyond easy to hide an illegal disc, how are you going to know I shaved a couple thousandths of an inch off my leading edge without a profile gauge for that specific wing, I think the process should be at an event bigger than a x tier:

1. Check in.

2. Tech inspection: wing profile gauge and weight.

3. Meeting to comprehensively go over course specifics.

Obviously for tee time starts this silly idea of mine falls apart but I'm also a shotgun start advocate but that's another rant.

Adding to the anecdotal expierences, in the early 2000s, I played at the Melbourne open in Florida and one dude in intermediate on my card was friggin smoking the whole field off the tee on the tight turning holes with one of those "the wheel" discs. I thought it was the coolest thing to see and it definitely pissed off some of the advanced baggers. I would personally like to see goofball discs like that legal again it was fun to see in action.

If someone could blast an aerobi ring 4 digits off the tee I would cheer them on that's fair game in my mind. 99% of people who play disc golf couldn't put one past 500 accurately and if they could if they hit anything besides soft tall grass the tune is out and that thing is basically scrap until it's meticulously re tuned in the field.

I look at it like this. If we have approved wing profiles and max weights, then they shouldn't ever leave the factory out of spec, that would nearly eliminate all the shenanigans with super special runs that aren't at all what the original design was and all of the stupidly overweight discs.

Ideally, there should be two disc categories:

1. public legal, capable of surviving a lawsuit if a pedestrian is hit with it on a public course.

2. Competition legal, passes tournament tech inspection but allows all the current rule skirting discs that are already in play, or not at all, leave it to the TD to set the stage for what kind of liability they want or not depending on the course.

As it is, there's already a belligerent amount of discs outside the approved design in play in events all over the world from casual league play all the way up to big boy high dollar tournaments and I think that something needs to give and it shouldn't be up to the players to argue it out as to what is or isn't, it should be stamped into the disc from the factory and the TD should decide what is or isn't applicable.

Obviously the big rub here is manufacturers could absolutely and easily scrap overweight discs and out of spec wing profile discs but that would be extremely wasteful and would significantly eat into their production.

 

[seedlings]

We need two pro buddies, say AB and Hammes, to both call each others' discs illegal before the TD and on camera. Let's see how documentation moves the conversation along.

 

[txmxer]

There has to be a standard and the possibility of enforcement. Those things are a given in order to have a "game".

Inspection pre event is not practical. Inspecting the winners bag or the top 2-3, plus a random is how most other sports approach this type of enforcement.

Of course, suppose a disc has a hole—what's the penalty? Was it even used? I suppose if a disc is damaged during a round a player could declare it damaged and mark it with a sharpie as evidence it wasn't used once identified as damaged.

Not much benefit there. Players go through their bag on 18 and mark anything suspect?

 

[roblee]

Don't need a scale or any other tool. Just start with the post-pro hot stamps. That should motivate the PDGA to stop this runaway train.