Surge Wants A Better Backhand

[Surge5]

Hi, I'm Surge, and I have a backhand problem.

I can mack a forehand Wraith 385 consistently and 410 max (no, I'm not internet distancing. I want advice, not to brag), but my best backhands are with a mid. A glow reactor and Buzzz-SS are going about 230-260, and a pretty straight Z Buzzz goes 250 consistently, a wildly good shot goes 270. Those are my best backhands. My less stable fairways (Jackelope, Crave, Amp) look like a beginner threw them and only go 225 or so.

So, how did you unlock the next level of backhand? What tips/tricks/videos did the trick and started that nice clean backhand bomb for you? (Joel Freeman's video on not stepping dead straight, but setting the right foot (rhbh) in front helped me add some distance.)

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Dan Beato and throwing blind with my shoulder facing the basket and my feet on a 45 degree plant to the basket helped me. Also the Mike C wide rail overhead graphic was huge. I think Rhatton1 made that. Double dragon Cancan. Getting me a comet helped, it don't lie when your angles are f****Ed.

RECIPROCATING DINGLE ARM DRILL is really helpful. That was the best video for feeling the loose arm snap.

I don't know what your particular crave is like, but I do know how hefty the Amp was and they weren't my favourites, kinda beefy and i kinda felt like if i was throwing 350+ I would like em more. If it's MVP the lighter waves are huge backhand distance for throwers under 350' if you can control it, I pretty much throw rhythms for a fairway (and distance haha), more turn than a crave and more friendly to lower power throwers.

You're probably throwing nose up with some strong arming. MVP stuff hates nose up. Snap a few into the ground, base of the pin or downhill and see what happens.

After you brace rotate your front leg (on the heel I believe) when you figure out better leg loading, if you don't release it you can blow out your knee like me haha

Also ask someone besides me, I'm just a Parrot(head).

 

[sidewinder22]

Swinging upward nose down.

Ezra giving a good tip or demonstration of swinging downward nose up vs swinging upward nose down. l_ajpOY3Ohs

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[RowingBoats]

throwing blind with my shoulder facing the basket and my feet on a 45 degree plant to the basket helped me

This reads like a description of the closed shoulder snap drill, and if so, I agree completely. I know it relied on some other concepts too, but this one really helped me start feeling the snap.

I partially think this drill is the cornerstone of my entire conceptualization of the backhand. Building on this feeling makes the swing more holistic and much easier to feel when you are introducing shenanigans into your movements.

 

[Surge5]

introducing shenanigans into your movements.

Shenanigans being release angle and nose angle?

 

[RowingBoats]

Shenanigans being release angle and nose angle?

For me, I need the swing to be as simple as possible to play well and feel like I'm not lost in some sort of form micromanagement purgatory. A clearly defined 'snap' point is one of my fundamental cornerstones that I rely on, and when I notice my throws getting wonky, almost every time it is because I have deviated from this basic concept and started concentrating on something else.

The closed shoulder snap drill was when I really started to feel this. I know this forum (rightfully mostly) shits on Bradley Walker (spin and throw, citysmasher), but this drill does have a lot of merit and can just wake you up to what the real goal of the backhand is. Or at least it helped me personally!

That isn't to say you shouldn't try all kinds of things, see what works for you. But if I were to go back and teach myself how to have a passable backhand, I would emphasize these drills/concepts:

Closed shoulder snap drill - there is no escaping it. If you don't have this feeling, you aren't going to throw BH far.

SW22's one leg drill - also no escaping it. If you aren't getting your weight shift completed before the real meat of the swing, bad things will follow.

Dingle Arm - the concept of how loose the arm does need to be is not super intuitive, or wasn't to me coming from no throwing background

Hugging someone else, not yourself - really exaggerating this one proved how important it is to me - don't reach back and round, coil with a wide upper arm angle that stays intact

To me, these ones are the biggies that clear up some of the major misunderstandings of what you are trying to do. I believe that most adult humans with even vague athletic ability can fill in a lot of blanks once you have this framework down. You will probably find that there ARE intuitive ways to increase the power behind the swing, and that a lot of what you naturally do will be what people here spend tons of time breaking down.

If you do run into barriers or have the desire to perfect the swing, SW22 is where id go. He has done the best job breaking down the minutia of optimizing the swing imo. Videos like the doorframe drill, the tilted starburst swirl (lol this one threw me off so hard early on)...just everything he says will make so much more sense once you feel that basic accelerated snap.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

@RowingBoats
I need the swing to be as simple as possible to play well and feel like I'm not lost in some sort of form micromanagement purgatory

Haha so true....

When I was working on my backhand I didn't have the closed shoulder snap drill, I should probably look at it... I know where my arm stops, if I hold my arm out fully extended and rotate my feet into a 45 degree angle more or less so my arm finishes facing the basket I can pretty much throw with the back of my shoulder towards the basket and without looking. I get clean rotation and am on target. My head gets in the way if I try to see the basket, especially for a long wide open drive it doesn't matter. I kinda combined that with those old Beato and B.W.'s More Snap videos.

I think Beato was the one who talked about smashing your elbow at the basket like you are taking out someone's teeth.. or something like that haha. I started with that concept and added body rotation later and some of the wide rail dingle arm stuff.

I am a fan of Bradley Walker, mostly for what he did years ago, his short appearance here and the pushing the elbow outwards as long as possible helped me again.... it was timely haha. 15 years ago one of the biggest Aha moment for me came from his More Snap video, he said that the disc was more like a hatchet or a hammer and not necessarily a round object. All the weight is directly opposite of your hand and you need to swing it around, add the elbow thing and it helps store even more kinetic energy for a more explosive release. I appreciate the few gold nuggets he dropped but it's not like I follow him on FB or YouTube... there's people with a more comprehensive understanding here.

We are lucky to have someone as insanely dedicated to discgolf physics as Sidewinder22 hanging around...

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Credit to @rhatton1 for the Mike C. Widerail Overhead

One thing thats absent is the the loading of the wrist and legs to get to this point. I was surprised how much extra spin you get rotating the disc backwards, then forwards as opposed to just starting with it cocked (to get to the 1st step in diagram). At step 6/7 is where the pointing the elbow away from the basket helped me use more of the power pocket.

I walked around for about 2 or 3 weeks dingle arming and staring at this diagram....

 

[RowingBoats]

We are lucky to have someone as insanely dedicated to discgolf physics as Sidewinder22 hanging around...

Lol. That is true and also an understatement. The dude spends so much time giving so many people customized advice. For free.

 

[RowingBoats]

View attachment 330521
Credit to @rhatton1 for the Mike C. Widerail Overhead

One thing thats absent is the the loading of the wrist and legs to get to this point. I was surprised how much extra spin you get rotating the disc backwards, then forwards as opposed to just starting with it cocked (to get to the 1st step in diagram). At step 6/7 is where the pointing the elbow away from the basket helped me use more of the power pocket.

I walked around for about 2 or 3 weeks dingle arming and staring at this diagram....

Would you simplify this to say that it is just the figure 8 concept? Or are you talking about something else here? Emphasizing the 'don't hug yourself' arm angles is part of feeling the figure 8 pattern to me.

I have never really paid much attention to the pink disc image there, it always confused me a bit.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Would you simplify this to say that it is just the figure 8 concept? Or are you talking about something else here? Emphasizing the 'don't hug yourself' arm angles is part of feeling the figure 8 pattern to me.

I have never really paid much attention to the pink disc image there, it always confused me a bit.

I would say it's the last half of the figure 8 just after the pause (nod to the gods). The first part is loading, this is the release. I found it worked well with a standstill rocking kind of throw.

The image for the pink disc could be better, the main take away is the direction of the arrow/shield and also the thumb. I found it helpful to see every bit and position through the arm motion... it helped me associate what was actually happening or should happen every step of the way.

I had the feel for the dingle arm and could feel the motion, took that quick stopover to point and load the elbow (more of a wink then nod to the gods) etc... I just like precise overly complicated explanations and the diagram spoke to me.

 

[RowingBoats]

I would say it's the last half of the figure 8. The first part is loading, this is the release. I found it worked well with a standstill rocking kind of throw.

The image for the pink disc could be better, the main take away is the direction of the arrow/shield and also the thumb. I found it helpful to see every bit and position through the arm motion... it helped me associate what was actually happening or should happen every step of the way.

I had the feel for the dingle arm and could feel the motion, took that quick stopover to point and load the elbow (nod to the gods) etc... I just like precise overly complicated explanations and the diagram spoke to me.

Cool, yes I should have clarified that it was the last half of the figure 8 concept, makes sense looking at the image with that in mind.

I find the figure 8 movement to be one of the absolute best holistic views of the swing, particularly for standstill throws. I should add that into the list of concepts I would teach myself for sure.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

The best thing about the figure 8 is how it gets your hips involved, figure 8 for the arm but it's being led by a figure 8 for the legs/hips. Getting the feel for legs leading and the arm following is the first big step to less strong arming and distance past 300'. (Or back to 300' in some folks case )

 

[RowingBoats]

The best thing about the figure 8 is how it gets your hips involved, figure 8 for the arm but it's being led by a figure 8 for the legs/hips. Getting the feel for legs leading and the arm following is the first big step to less strong arming and distance past 300'. (Or back to 300' in some folks case )

Yep exactly.

I have spent literally hours just moving around all crazy in my house, my wife thinks Im insane, guaranteed.

Playing around with no disc doing the figure 8 proves so many different things. You can do it with no/little hips/ground forces. It can be as subtle, or as hip driven as you want, but it lets you intuitively feel why hips add power. And as you add power with your lower body, you also naturally counterweight the rear leg. Its a magical movement to play with for the disc golf BH.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Haha not to one up you but I was doing elephant walk(?) stair drill with a dingle arm at work, every time I went up and down a staircase. My buddy who works for me and plays disc was like "WTF are you trying to dance badly?" Haha when I said it was disc golf related it made it perfectly normal but I was a little red.

Dragging the back foot was helpful too, it helped me get into the brace after loading, I think I have sw22 to thank for that one. I gotta revisit my form thread and start working ground up again, with careful and protected motions. Man I wish I'd cottoned on when my body was less busted.

My standstill is a weird backwards leg sweep kinda motion to a coiled leg spring and then forwards... with a foot drag. I am having a heck of a time learning to turn my front foot, every time I advance with more power from the legs I create more stress on my surgeried point knee. Worst part is I know how to do it now, kinda haha.

Anyhow don't listen to me surge5 I'm full of half digested advice. Good name though, I hope you Throwa Surge them things were great... well as great as non gyro can be.

 

[lee76007]

You mention the Glow Reactor and Crave. I had my glow reactor for 14 months and it was short on distance, but straight for wood play so it stayed in the bag until it was booted out by a Plasma Tangent just as straight but more distance. I actually traded my glow for a neutron reactor more distance but left center (LHBH), and this past week a Fission Reactor hangs with the neutron I'm not missing the glow, maybe something for you? I've had my Plasma Crave for 20 months and have found best distance no higher than mid-level flight. Alot of that is I rely on it in heavily wooded play off the tee, solid distance in the warmer months, ok enough this time of the year. So, if your higher than mid-level flight, perhaps try bringing it down?

Thanks for the Joel Freeman video reminder, I've had it saved for almost a year, try it on the practice field, but settle on the Cory Ellis three-step this past year for form building. This winter I'm pretty sure I'm having a clothing issue and losing distance like crazy, not noticeable with my 2-step (form building) from a year ago. My last t-shirt and shorts day a month ago distance as usual, the next day a 40-degree temperature drop, lost distance as the few weeks prior. I'll use the Freeman open window form on the practice field with 6-speeds and see if it makes a difference clearing the clothing and hopefully pick up some lost distance.

This past week watched a video on Winter Disc Golf in how your form can turn to crap, and effects on disc etc. and contributes to lost distance among other things. I was already aware, and already had these thoughts. But these thoughts were missed a year ago as I was halfway busy flipping my bag to MVP/Axiom (took a year). So, in hopes of recovering what's left of this winter's lost distance and prepare for following winters I'm going to start building a winter bag with Fission's, and G-Star since I'm already familiar with Innova, all in lighter weights. I'll bring in a G-Star Wraith those took off in the winter when I had one, and already have last year's g-star Corvette, and picked up a g-star Shrike to compare with last year's Star Shrike.

That's my rant on lost distance or more distance, hopefully get at least some of it back from the winter. It's never-ending tweak this and tweak that. I was planning on starting the 4-step this month, nope I'll wait until March or April.

 

[Sheep]

View attachment 330521
Credit to @rhatton1 for the Mike C. Widerail Overhead

One thing thats absent is the the loading of the wrist and legs to get to this point. I was surprised how much extra spin you get rotating the disc backwards, then forwards as opposed to just starting with it cocked (to get to the 1st step in diagram). At step 6/7 is where the pointing the elbow away from the basket helped me use more of the power pocket.

I walked around for about 2 or 3 weeks dingle arming and staring at this diagram....

If you're talking about the weirdness of wide rail in correlation with spin, yeah. I don't get it.

Cause you're just loading wide, and pocking deep and then pushing out fast, and for some reason it loads your wrist different and you get so much more spin.

If we wanna look at why you get more spin with "curl in during pocket" vs "curl prior pocket" I think we could explain that with muscle tension and the active work of trying to keep the disc in that state is straining other muscles to not flow as well.

However, I love the wide rail throw. But I don't think it should be taught as a more normal throw to newer golfers. It's really easy to create a bad throw if you dont start it with the base mechanics. Because you have to learn to get the disc out. If you try and "pull through" on a wide rail, you'll just round and WTF richard the disc.

 

[Sheep]

Haha not to one up you but I was doing elephant walk(?) stair drill with a dingle arm at work, every time I went up and down a staircase. My buddy who works for me and plays disc was like "WTF are you trying to dance badly?" Haha when I said it was disc golf related it made it perfectly normal but I was a little red.

Dragging the back foot was helpful too, it helped me get into the brace after loading, I think I have sw22 to thank for that one. I gotta revisit my form thread and start working ground up again, with careful and protected motions. Man I wish I'd cottoned on when my body was less busted.

My standstill is a weird backwards leg sweep kinda motion to a coiled leg spring and then forwards... with a foot drag. I am having a heck of a time learning to turn my front foot, every time I advance with more power from the legs I create more stress on my surgeried point knee. Worst part is I know how to do it now, kinda haha.

Anyhow don't listen to me surge5 I'm full of half digested advice. Good name though, I hope you Throwa Surge them things were great... well as great as non gyro can be.

Always reply "stretching"

 

[Surge5]

Good name though, I hope you Throwa Surge them things were great... well as great as non gyro can be.

2021 and 22 I went back and forth between Surges and Wraiths. Eventually tho the Wraith won out with superior glide and controllability (star Wraith on a slight anhyzer is wondrous). Ironically I have 5 Wraiths in the bag right now.

 

[ChrisinFL]

If you're talking about the weirdness of wide rail in correlation with spin, yeah. I don't get it.

Cause you're just loading wide, and pocking deep and then pushing out fast, and for some reason it loads your wrist different and you get so much more spin.

If we wanna look at why you get more spin with "curl in during pocket" vs "curl prior pocket" I think we could explain that with muscle tension and the active work of trying to keep the disc in that state is straining other muscles to not flow as well.

However, I love the wide rail throw. But I don't think it should be taught as a more normal throw to newer golfers. It's really easy to create a bad throw if you dont start it with the base mechanics. Because you have to learn to get the disc out. If you try and "pull through" on a wide rail, you'll just round and WTF richard the disc.

Playing 8-9 months. Distance 225-250', and about 275' rare max, with a 150g Katana. I definitely cock my wrist from the start, and leave it cocked - found that helped me the most with consistency. Sounds like, as a step to throwing longer, I am going to have to start uncocked, and cock my wrist in the pocket?! I will have to try to remember to play with that next trip to a practice field.