The Power of Posture

[Nick481]

We talked about him in the other thread. His name is Clint.
He's played for like 10 months.

He's done power lifting, so he knows muscle groups and how they work and how to target them, but doesn't know anything about DG coaching/form.

Using the argument of "someone only playing for x amount of time can't possibly be knowledgeable or competent" is a complete logical fallacy, I've been playing for over 10 years and feel pretty comfortable saying this guy (Blitz/Clint) some of the best understanding and ability to explain backhand mechanical concepts in a way that a large audience can action upon and benefit from. In fact, I reference clips from his videos (amongst other great coaches like sw22 as well) to help many of my clients who are getting awesome results from my coaching.

It's nice to see someone making such rapid improvements in disc golf in under a year like this, because it is helping to shed light that improving one's overall health and fitness can greatly benefit their disc golf game in addition to form work, especially since form improvements can be very difficult to continue making after a certain point.

 

[Brychanus]

Judging your tone in this vs how you normally respond I sense a small level of respect so I appreciate that.

The thing you fail to mention is that I have been a powerlifting coach for 10 years. There are multiple facets to coaching, and knowing the exact most efficient biomechanics is just one of them. Being able to explain those simply and actually get people to DO what you want them to do is another, and has a great carryover from other sports.

I have been doing that for years and I think it's where YOU miss the mark. You MIGHT understand the disc golf swing better than me, but I've watched your videos and I can explain it to a layman better than you. That's why people like Josh and I have value in this "world of extremely experienced people". If you want to make a difference, HELP the people who communicate better than you understand better, don't shit on them at every opportunity.

I'm not coaching people to be coaches or understand tilted spirals, that's your thing.... I'm coaching them to throw far, and it's working.

FWIW I generally liked what you said and like keeping things imple when possible.

Had a coaching concept for you to consider if you want to find your simple way to say it.

I myself suffered & noticed a pattern I now expect to see in people who have spent a lot of time with Olympic lifts/two-legged lifts where their center tends to get a bit trapped between the legs. This can be a matter of degree. E.g., in your case you get your weight foot to foot and the issue isn't that significant (and a hell of a lot better than mine at 10 months), but it's there. Sidewinder or others call it "horse stance," and some people call it "power stance" in golf.

I've looked into this more beyond just myself, and it now seems very clear (to me) that it's possible to develop a high-powered move in athletic people with some degree of power stance.

The point I am making is that it will also put more burden on muscular effort through the chain because it's not as efficient with respect to gravity, and it will also cause people to rotate more around a center axis without getting the full power of shifting their body mass laterally in the best axis (in other words, you leave one potential source of power on the table).

When they fix it, we usually see people either (1) significantly reduce their effort at a given distance or (2) add some amount of distance. I'm fairly convinced I'm not just speaking BS because some of the people who fix it that were already throwing 500' make significant additional gains, and with less effort.

You might like playing with this and similar concepts and consider how it would influence your form or talk to other players. I'll be curious what you think and learn if you tinker with it. This is one of the main concepts that motivated Sidewinder's "Turbo Encabulator" series.

I don't think you need to invoke "tilted spiral" to explain it if you don't want to. Just balance.

 

[Clint Easterly]

FWIW I generally liked what you said and like keeping things imple when possible.

Had a coaching concept for you to consider if you want to find your simple way to say it.

I myself suffered & noticed a pattern I now expect to see in people who have spent a lot of time with Olympic lifts/two-legged lifts where their center tends to get a bit trapped between the legs. This can be a matter of degree. E.g., in your case you get your weight foot to foot and the issue isn't that significant (and a hell of a lot better than mine at 10 months), but it's there. Sidewinder or others call it "horse stance," and some people call it "power stance" in golf.

I've looked into this more beyond just myself, and it now seems very clear (to me) that it's possible to develop a high-powered move in athletic people with some degree of power stance.

The point I am making is that it will also put more burden on muscular effort through the chain because it's not as efficient with respect to gravity, and it will also cause people to rotate more around a center axis without getting the full power of shifting their body mass laterally in the best axis (in other words, you leave one potential source of power on the table).

When they fix it, we usually see people either (1) significantly reduce their effort at a given distance or (2) add some amount of distance. I'm fairly convinced I'm not just speaking BS because some of the people who fix it that were already throwing 500' make significant additional gains, and with less effort.

You might like playing with this and similar concepts and consider how it would influence your form or talk to other players. I'll be curious what you think and learn if you tinker with it. This is one of the main concepts that motivated Sidewinder's "Turbo Encabulator" series.

I don't think you need to invoke "tilted spiral" to explain it if you don't want to. Just balance.

Definitely something worth looking into and I too have noticed in lifters it seems more common. Honestly one of the reasons I don't dive into it is because I don't really understand the tradeoff it brings, especially with people REALLY strong in that orientation. I also notice there are a few extremely far throwers that seem to do it (AB being the most obvious), so I definitely need to learn more before I'd be confident saying they are doing anything "wrong". I currently focus alot on staying off your back heel to combat the bad stuff I think it causes and maintain the ability to dynamically adjust.

For myself though, I am willing to try basically anything since I have a fairly easy time snapping back to my current form. I appreciate the feedback, and I'm definitely checking out SW22's recommendations and trying out his form cues that he has given me as well to further my understanding. Any videos specifically on this concept are more than welcome. I don't check this forum too often, but if you'd like my contact info I'd love to pick your brain here and there and absorb some experience.

 

[Brychanus]

Definitely something worth looking into and I too have noticed in lifters it seems more common. Honestly one of the reasons I don't dive into it is because I don't really understand the tradeoff it brings, especially with people REALLY strong in that orientation. I also notice there are a few extremely far throwers that seem to do it (AB being the most obvious), so I definitely need to learn more before I'd be confident saying they are doing anything "wrong". I currently focus alot on staying off your back heel to combat the bad stuff I think it causes and maintaining the ability to dynamically adjust.

For myself though, I am willing to try basically anything since I have a fairly easy time snapping back to my current form. I appreciate the feedback, and I'm definitely checking out SW22's recommendations that he has given me as well to further my understanding. Any videos specifically on this concept are more than welcome. I don't check this forum too often, but if you'd like my contact info I'd love to pick your brain here and there and absorb some experience.

Yeah, what I'm basically trying to orient you to is what dancers, batters, golfers have in common and part of what I ranted about way back in the first post. Part of the reason that Barela's form looks more smooth and organic is because of experience, and part of it is that his balance functions like the opposite of the power stance that Pratt talks about when he moves foot to foot (likely).

Basically if you go through these moves and do them as intended you'll feel the difference. Same idea as Pratt but moving foot to foot. Say what you will about his style- SW has done his balance and posture homework. You'll know if you're "getting it" if you can do the move with the pool cue with the bottom of the cue swinging back and forth under your head like a pendulum rather than just rotating vertical relative to the ground. Most people who have significant lifting backgrounds like you and I developing a lot of strength directly against gravity find it hard to access this intuitively, so the drills help. Also if you've ever skiied or done a skateboard halfpipe, similar idea.

And like I said, I do think it's a continuum in form, just something to consider. I think the evidence favors this balance being in most top pros' form, even if it's not the main part.

 

[seedlings]

You just went from "sound advice" to dogging me because a grumpy old man told you to. Coaches like this who try to "defend" their spot on the totem pole by shitting on anyone new who comes around should be ashamed of themselves. Open your eyes. If someone is frantically going post to post to prevent someone else's success, it should tell you everything you need to know about them.

That's an aggressive take, friend. I like the content fine. Coming out defensive doesn't draw me in like it might some people.

Couple of things I didn't realize: you are new to the scene, and my post is recycled news from another thread. Of course, I added a humorous take, because I thought it was funny.

 

[seedlings]

As well. Seedlings and I do not get along whatsoever.

We don't? I can't remember much interaction. I'm no instructor. I'm from 1974 trying to break 920 rating… I have no ego.

 

[Sheep]

We don't? I can't remember much interaction. I'm no instructor. I'm from 1974 trying to break 920 rating… I have no ego.

I was saying were not trying to hug it out everyday. =)

 

[sillybizz]

A bunch of 900 rated players bickering over who knows more about disc golf form with strangers over the internet. lol

 

[Kennets]

A bunch of 900 rated players bickering over who knows more about disc golf form with strangers over the internet. lol

How would you like a 8xx rated dude chiming in too?

 

[Sheep]

We all know that rating has everything to do with ability and knowledge.

Next people are going to be asking for paperwork on your IQ.

 

[seedlings]

A bunch of 900 rated players bickering over who knows more about disc golf form with strangers over the internet. lol

Although I am 900ish rated, I'm not actually bickering about form and technique. But fortunately we have higher than 900 rated players bickering about bickering about technique.

 

[koiyote]

How would you like a 8xx rated dude chiming in too?

I'm confused. Is that a jab at the 8xx rated guy or are you saying rating doesn't matter for coaches.

 

[Kennets]

I'm confused. Is that a jab at the 8xx rated guy or are you saying rating doesn't matter for coaches.

I were just kidding. Extremely bold statement by the op - rating does matter in some cases, but even the worst player could be a GREAT coach.

 

[Kennets]

And I refered to my own shitty rating

 

[timothy42b]

Had a coaching concept for you to consider if you want to find your simple way to say it.

I myself suffered & noticed a pattern I now expect to see in people who have spent a lot of time with Olympic lifts/two-legged lifts where their center tends to get a bit trapped between the legs. This can be a matter of degree. E.g., in your case you get your weight foot to foot and the issue isn't that significant (and a hell of a lot better than mine at 10 months), but it's there. Sidewinder or others call it "horse stance," and some people call it "power stance" in golf.

That's interesting. One of the criticisms of cross-fit is that it is accused of being two legged and one directional.

I wonder if the symptom you notice relates to this being a run-up move for many/most people. A disc thrown hard has less than 100 joules of energy, and in an earlier thread one of the fastest throws ever was calculated at 132. A baseball batter puts 200 joules into the ball with just a stride, but 400 into the bat swing. Of course the inertia of the bat makes it easier to pull hard than a light disc - but we use heavy objects to work on form.

 

[Sheep]

I'm confused. Is that a jab at the 8xx rated guy or are you saying rating doesn't matter for coaches.

Rating doesn't matter for experience whatsoever in coaching. This is a bit of a touchy subject for me, so understand this isn't an attack on you or anyone in here, but on the topic and idiotic idea overall of you gotta be good to teach.

If the attitude is that a player must be some level of elite to teach, then there isn't a single coach out there that can teach you other than Dave Feldberg or Scott Stokley.

Cause it sure is shit aint Uli. Nor is it Josh at OT, Coach T, Clint, anyone. Not seabass, loopghost, me, brychanus. nobody except the 2 coaches above who have shown outstanding ability for years on the golf course and actually know how to coach and teach and understand the mechanics of the swing. Feldberg far more than stokley. Almost all of the best coaches in history were not star athletes, they were geniuses on understanding the game and had above average skill levels in the game. Very few elite level players in sports have turned into elite level coaches. Larry Bird is one that always comes to mind, but there isn't very many.

It's not that peoples opinions out there might be invalid.
But present the information if you are trying to coach from a humble viewpoint, especially if you've not even played the game for a year. And this is where a lot of bad ju ju is coming in the coaching area now. I probably don't help it whatsoever by pointing fingers. But the fingers were pointed at me when I started making coaching video's before I knew I didn't know jack shit. Nothing like having loopghost come in on your video and drop a duce on you. And people get upset about me pointing it out.
And so we got a bunch of un studied people trying to teach, and good on them, but lack the whole picture because they are not studied on the topic.

So, Just cause I have a crap rating doesn't mean my brain doesn't work, and my teaching methods are bad. I can still throw 2 to 3 times as many shot shapes as you. Could care less if you throw 100 foot further than me or 500 foot. I still will always have a higher skill level because I have to practice ALL the shots and shot shapes, disc methods, putting methods, upshot methods, roller methods. So I can teach players to do them when they ask. Yep. I'm going to be a baller level 1010 player.

But, I can tell you when I play money rounds, I keep up with the 980 rated guys. I just jack up 1 or 2 holes really bad to take me out of the cash because they are that good of players that those 2 strokes I lost on that 1 hole takes me out cause of a bad tree hit, or a missed up shot. So, while my tournament rating might be outright garbage because I will play 1 round and go home of the 2 rounds. Or things go bad for me, cause I'm not a tournament style player. Doesn't mean a damn thing about my ability to play the game overall and what I "can" do.

 

[discerdoo]

Rating doesn't matter for experience whatsoever in coaching. This is a bit of a touchy subject for me, so understand this isn't an attack on you or anyone in here, but on the topic and idiotic idea overall of you gotta be good to teach.

If the attitude is that a player must be some level of elite to teach, then there isn't a single coach out there that can teach you other than Dave Feldberg or Scott Stokley.

Cause it sure is shit aint Uli. Nor is it Josh at OT, Coach T, Clint, anyone. Not seabass, loopghost, me, brychanus. nobody except the 2 coaches above who have shown outstanding ability for years on the golf course and actually know how to coach and teach and understand the mechanics of the swing. Feldberg far more than stokley. Almost all of the best coaches in history were not star athletes, they were geniuses on understanding the game and had above average skill levels in the game. Very few elite level players in sports have turned into elite level coaches. Larry Bird is one that always comes to mind, but there isn't very many.

It's not that peoples opinions out there might be invalid.
But present the information if you are trying to coach from a humble viewpoint, especially if you've not even played the game for a year. And this is where a lot of bad ju ju is coming in the coaching area now. I probably don't help it whatsoever by pointing fingers. But the fingers were pointed at me when I started making coaching video's before I knew I didn't know jack shit. Nothing like having loopghost come in on your video and drop a duce on you. And people get upset about me pointing it out.
And so we got a bunch of un studied people trying to teach, and good on them, but lack the whole picture because they are not studied on the topic.

So, Just cause I have a crap rating doesn't mean my brain doesn't work, and my teaching methods are bad. I can still throw 2 to 3 times as many shot shapes as you. Could care less if you throw 100 foot further than me or 500 foot. I still will always have a higher skill level because I have to practice ALL the shots and shot shapes, disc methods, putting methods, upshot methods, roller methods. So I can teach players to do them when they ask. Yep. I'm going to be a baller level 1010 player.

But, I can tell you when I play money rounds, I keep up with the 980 rated guys. I just jack up 1 or 2 holes really bad to take me out of the cash because they are that good of players that those 2 strokes I lost on that 1 hole takes me out cause of a bad tree hit, or a missed up shot. So, while my tournament rating might be outright garbage because I will play 1 round and go home of the 2 rounds. Or things go bad for me, cause I'm not a tournament style player. Doesn't mean a damn thing about my ability to play the game overall and what I "can" do.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[sillybizz]

This all reminds me of DiscGolfReview (DGR) back in the day when Blake was always working on his "secret technique" that would unlock 600+ feet of distance or whatever and of course never came. I remember the forums on that site with people saying they knew what "snap" was and how to get it and how they were experts because they were in coaching other sports for X amount of years, blah blah but could never explain it in English. This reminds me of the same threads I read in 2004. Pretty sure Climo and Schultz never threw hammers at barns or pushed cue sticks into walls but if you think it's helping that's all that matters I suppose.

 

[Kennets]

This all reminds me of DiscGolfReview (DGR) back in the day when Blake was always working on his "secret technique" that would unlock 600+ feet of distance or whatever and of course never came. I remember the forums on that site with people saying they knew what "snap" was and how to get it and how they were experts because they were in coaching other sports for X amount of years, blah blah but could never explain it in English. This reminds me of the same threads I read in 2004. Pretty sure Climo and Schultz never threw hammers at barns or pushed cue sticks into walls but if you think it's helping that's all that matters I suppose.

You might just be my new favourite idiot on this site. It used to be sheep, but you're a strong contender.

Bonus points for taking a dig at Andrew while you were at it.

That's too much internet for me today.

 

[sillybizz]

Bonus points for taking a dig at Andrew while you were at it.

Which of the "experts" in here is that?