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Bottom of palm disc alignment: middle vs ball of palm

I find it interesting the most common backhand results from the pros:

Speed: 72 mph
Spin: 1400
Hyzer: 10 degrees
Nose: 0
Launch: 5
Wobble: 4
Distance: 580' or so

I don't think you can extrapolate too much, but the most interesting numbers to me were the angles: hyzer nose, launch and wobble.

Hyzer: There were likely a lot of tests that were not deliberate hyzer, for example, but odds are high that angle is just super common among the pros for their stock shots. As with every angle I talk about here, they're situational, but the primary reason people are using Tech Disc are with very high speed throws.

Nose: I know -4 has gotten some traction online as a good nose angle, but gyroscopic forces will bring that closer to 0 after release, and I just think that getting the nose as close to that from the get-go is probably best for distance, since we're generally seeing high speed drives for nearly all the throws.

Launch: A 5 launch angle was super common in these throws, and I just think that's likely a sweet spot for distance drives (golf lines, not distance comp lines).

Wobble: The absolute lowest values were in the 0.X range but I think it gives people something to aim for if they can hit about 4 wobble, as I think this is the hardest metric to refine, and is probably the most dependent on getting everything nailed down.
Do we know if these were thrown into a net, or a true throw for distance? Throwing into a net can really mess with the angles.
 
Do we know if these were thrown into a net, or a true throw for distance? Throwing into a net can really mess with the angles.
My understanding is these were thrown at the booth in the vendor village. They had a post about this on their IG where they show an example of how the Tech Disc actually flies, but say in that post that "TechDisc only measures what you do to the disc, not how the disc flies." So it would be interesting to know what the time period is for the measurements to occur. Clearly it's tracking the movement of the disc in the moments prior to the throw, and after. But it's interesting to see if it's a variable period before an impact, or some other method.
 
So it would be interesting to know what the time period is for the measurements to occur.


I was curious about that as well.

Because how does the tech disc, for instance, know if your swooping or not?
What is its actual averaged data set to create the numbers.

I'm going to guess there is some level of programing of "measure from this point of inertia, to this point of inertia, then add ... like .5 seconds.

So, how long is the data string for it to come up with those numbers.
What numbers are averaged, what numbers are for say a min or max.

Like, its measuring velocity for you, so its going to output "max recorded" on that sensor.

That might be part of the bigger question on the use cases of the device, what data from when to where and how.
 
My understanding is these were thrown at the booth in the vendor village. They had a post about this on their IG where they show an example of how the Tech Disc actually flies, but say in that post that "TechDisc only measures what you do to the disc, not how the disc flies." So it would be interesting to know what the time period is for the measurements to occur. Clearly it's tracking the movement of the disc in the moments prior to the throw, and after. But it's interesting to see if it's a variable period before an impact, or some other method.
ChrisT posted on FB that they were throwing into net.
 
I am not sure I follow this myself. If what you are saying is literally true, it seems like you must have something bizarre going on with your swing plane/flexibility and that different grips affect a lot more than the things that I notice grip changes doing.

Just to be sure, we are talking about shots with some oomph here right? I do think some people develop touchier lighter throws and use more wrist manipulation to control angles, but for a distance shot, I don't see how it would do that if throwing with reasonable form.
Yes, on drives. I'll just have to wait to get a tech disc to confirm.

Lately, I've been practicing a lot of hyzer flips and this has lead me to sometimes accidentally release on a bit of hyzer when trying to throw flat release angles, out of habit due to the recent muscle memory.

So I decided to try exaggerated this grip change and intentionally leaning forward like I was throwing a hyzer flip with a really flippy disc (so quite a bit of hyzer), and it came out flat. To be clear, the grip change was this: normally I grip the disc aligned from between the index and middle finger down through the middle groove of the palm, and on these test throws where I threw flat while leaning forward for hyzer I aligned the disc from between the index and middle finger and then rotated it out of the middle palm groove and as far towards the pinky side of the palm as I could, which ended up being to around 1.5 cm below the base of the pinky.
 
Yes, on drives. I'll just have to wait to get a tech disc to confirm.

Lately, I've been practicing a lot of hyzer flips and this has lead me to sometimes accidentally release on a bit of hyzer when trying to throw flat release angles, out of habit due to the recent muscle memory.

So I decided to try exaggerated this grip change and intentionally leaning forward like I was throwing a hyzer flip with a really flippy disc (so quite a bit of hyzer), and it came out flat. To be clear, the grip change was this: normally I grip the disc aligned from between the index and middle finger down through the middle groove of the palm, and on these test throws where I threw flat while leaning forward for hyzer I aligned the disc from between the index and middle finger and then rotated it out of the middle palm groove and as far towards the pinky side of the palm as I could, which ended up being to around 1.5 cm below the base of the pinky.
Fair enough sir. I don't understand though! If you are leaning over into a 'hyzer' throwing position and throwing flat, there is no real explanation other than something weird going on with your swing plane or posture, at least in relation to how I swing.

To me the grip is basically just securing the disc to align with my swing plane. Some very small adjustments might influence nose angle, but I still am not able to conceive of grip changes impacting hyzer/anhyzer angles in any desirable way.
 
Fair enough sir. I don't understand though! If you are leaning over into a 'hyzer' throwing position and throwing flat, there is no real explanation other than something weird going on with your swing plane or posture, at least in relation to how I swing.

To me the grip is basically just securing the disc to align with my swing plane. Some very small adjustments might influence nose angle, but I still am not able to conceive of grip changes impacting hyzer/anhyzer angles in any desirable way.


I can actually explain all of this in person really easily.

But it requrires seeing a lot of stuff.

I don't know if I could do it juststice filming it out.

But the video would probably be like 15 mins.
 
I can actually explain all of this in person really easily.

But it requrires seeing a lot of stuff.

I don't know if I could do it juststice filming it out.

But the video would probably be like 15 mins.
Haha do you mean explain how the grip DOES impact hyzer/anhyzer in a desirable way?

I assume not, but I definitely don't know everything lol. Maybe there is something I am misinterpreting here.
 
Haha do you mean explain how the grip DOES impact hyzer/anhyzer in a desirable way?

I assume not, but I definitely don't know everything lol. Maybe there is something I am misinterpreting here.

I have spent 2 ish years messing around with these concepts trying to figure out nose angle issues and grip issues being a nose up thrower.

But its a far more complex topic than simply "this grip does this"

It's this grip does this if you swing here, but not here.

So if he's changing his grip the way I think he is, he's throwing a low belly/belt level throw, which would change it from a hyzer to flat.
 
I have spent 2 ish years messing around with these concepts trying to figure out nose angle issues and grip issues being a nose up thrower.

But its a far more complex topic than simply "this grip does this"

It's this grip does this if you swing here, but not here.

So if he's changing his grip the way I think he is, he's throwing a low belly/belt level throw, which would change it from a hyzer to flat.
Oh for sure, it CAN happen, but is it a desirable thing? In my opinion, no. I think what he is describing is a more fundamental form flaw that is manifesting different flights based on grip.
 
I don't know if grip affects anything with regard to hyzer or anhyzer - unless the grip makes it hard to keep the disc neutral. I know I've experimented with wrist angle and "pour the coffee" by overdoing it, and that did create a bit more hyzer. I didn't focus on this issue specifically, but it is something I noticed. That said, I don't have this mobility problem with any of the grips I've tried, and my modified power grip is comfortable and easily let's me keep that angle correct. TLDR: wrist angle, not grip, may be more worth looking at for hyzer/anhyzer issues.
 
Great video! I was having a hard time imagining the "steering wheel" grip and how it would be used. I've never tried it because it feels weird, but I can see some people working with it now.
 
Good stuff sheep. Never heard grips being talked about in that manner. Definitely something I'll look into
 
Good stuff sheep. Never heard grips being talked about in that manner. Definitely something I'll look into
yeah, the video thing i'm writing up is a bit complex, so its taking a bit, plus i have to re-shoot all the high speed.
 
Great video! I was having a hard time imagining the "steering wheel" grip and how it would be used. I've never tried it because it feels weird, but I can see some people working with it now.
I think this grip style has been discussed a few ways, but the "Deep Flight Plate" is what I call it. Oddly enough, I have also been experimenting with this grip alongside my more wide rail swing haha. I haven't decided if I will prefer it, but you can get mega rips with it for sure.

I have a feeling that wrist mobility is an absolutely gigantic factor with regards to grip and nose angle, because I can totally use the DFP grip with my chest level swing plane. I think that might be one of the major points Sheep is trying to make, not specifically that everyone will have the same results with that grip.
 
I think that might be one of the major points Sheep is trying to make, not specifically that everyone will have the same results with that grip.

Yes,

I theorize that how we teach grip is so wrong on so many levels because we just teach it as "you need to do this, then pour the coffee."

And then we... kind of end it there.

Then when people struggle with nose issues, we don't ever look at the grip again, we don't look at the posture and the way the body moves. We just assume you're gripping right, because you did the crease of your hand and wrapped the fingers mumbo jumbo. And I think players keep struggling and struggling making worse and worse form/posture to correct the nose issue, when it could have been a simple grip change from the start when they were learning and, easy peezy lemon squeezy.

I've ran out of test subjects for a bit until I get some more lessons going, weather and holidays isn't the best time for lessons. But this is why I need to get the high speed camera back out and re-film ALL the grip stuff I was doing. It just gave me more questions. That and when I got to the slow mo, I forgot which grip was which.
 
Good vid. I've never seen the suitcase grip shown like that with the thumb on the wing, I've always seen it shown the same as the steering wheel grip you show. I grip my steering wheel different, it's the same as my fan grip and same way I hold a pen, which is different than most people - my 4th grade teacher said I would never pass her class holding the pen like do.
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Seriously Sidewinder that can't be how you write unless you are left handed..

Sheep, I appreciate the video but I think there are some inaccuracies. It appears to assume a neutral wrist angle when throwing which I don't think is how anyone throws. I do like how you tie grip angle to a person's swing plane and angles to optimize the grip for that person. I throw with an ulnar deviation (coffee pour) and slight supination (at least that's what I feel during the swing up until the tendon bounce).

I also agree grip is a glossed over fundamental. I don't cheap out on tires because that is literally where the rubber meets the road and grip is where the energy is transferred directly into the disc. I think finding your grip is critical.

As it relates to the Eagle grip above, I know there is another thread on this topic too with some pics of pros holding the disc more in their fingers than than the traditional grip instructions. Both have one point under the knuckle but traditionally it says put it in the crease below your thumb pad where Eagle and other pros often have it much lower than their thumb pad crease (sorry don't know the actual term for this area) where the back of the disc is closer to their pinky finger knuckle if that makes sense.

For me, the higher speed the disc, the lower the back of it is below my thumb pad. This creates space between my thumb and the disc. All of this does a few things for me. First, it is easier for me to fit my fingers around wider rim discs. Second, it puts my thumb in a more leveraged position to push down hard on the top of the disc.

When I was a 350 thrower, I used a fork grip (aka modified fan where your index finger and pinky are tucked into the rim and your middle two fingers are laid down wherever is comfortable). As I started to throw closer to 60 mph, I needed to switch to a power grip. This didn't change that much but it let me firm my wrist up better so that my tendon bounce worked more effectively with that throwing speed. As I started to throw closer to 65, I have to do the grip referenced above because the limiting factor for me was grip strength and the disc slipping out all the damn time and going 400 instead of closer to 450. Now when I grip I am thinking more about thumb leverage than anything. Swing plane doesn't matter here for me at least because I lose a lot of power and consistency if the disc is slipping out early. I think Avery would also teach grip with the thumb pad not directly on the disc so he could get leverage pushing the end of his thumb into the disc. This is also why I like softer discs. There may be power loss in theory from the lower tensile strength (not sure if that is right word, but you get it) but that is operating at the margins for me. I don't care about optimizing that 1% benefit I may get from a stiffer disc when I lose 20% of power from a slip out.

For guys like Eagle throwing high 70s on regular shots, they have to find a way to grip the hell out of the disc.

Everyone's anatomy is different and you have to find a grip that works for you, but these were the stage gates for my level of power when it came to grip. I never throw fan grip so can't comment on that. Your anatomy may allow you to achieve max grip strength with the thumb pad (googled and its called the thenar region) on the disc, but that does not work for me at all.

TLDR - as you start to throw further there will be a point where grip may be your limiting factor. The grip that Eagle displays above IMO allows him to maximize thumb leverage and grip strength for high speed throwing.
 
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