Dg spin doctor, How to throw with using hips!

[Jussi Alanko]

Are you following DG Spin Doctors channel in youtube, if not go and watch him, he can throw himself something over 500 feet...

This video was at least for me kind of lightbulb moment...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrT4sbi8cHg

 

[Jussi Alanko]

And of course also this, and actually every video which this guy has created...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGDRuDSZzyA

 

[Jussi Alanko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey9Mxa6OBBE

This is also very good...

 

[Skervoy]

Yeah he has a good way of getting to the point and explaining.

Once I saw this I realised it is the same mechanics wether it is a disc, golf club, hockey stick etc just that the disc is so light and "short" that you dont get any free speed.

 

[seedlings]

Agree. All his vids I've watched are concise, accurate and helpful. If he starts a new channel asking for money to learn his superior technique, that's when I bail

 

[TiltedFlipCurves]

Is there one for 'how not to revert to supreme sloppy throwing when on a teepad in the woods with a tight line'

 

[RowingBoats]

Ive never watched this guy, seems much more solid than a lot of other current content.

 

[Brychanus]

I like a lot of Jaani's style and efforts to simplify a wide range of swing concepts for free to the public.

For the community's benefit & deliberation:

Jaani and SW teach fundamentally different hip and weight shift mechanics and postures. Jaani's are distinct also from Slingshot or Henderson or Overthrow. Jaani's remind me of an evolution of the classic Spin & Throw mechanics that used to raise furious debates around here. SW's mechanics are rooted in golf and baseball shift mechanics.

 

[RowingBoats]

I like a lot of Jaani's style and efforts to simplify a wide range of swing concepts for free to the public.

For the community's benefit & deliberation:

Jaani and SW teach fundamentally different hip and weight shift mechanics and postures. Jaani's are distinct also from Slingshot or Henderson or Overthrow. Jaani's remind me of an evolution of the classic Spin & Throw mechanics that used to raise furious debates around here. SW's mechanics are rooted in golf and baseball shift mechanics.

I'm a bit curious what you mean by a fundamental difference between this spin doctor guy and SW. I admit I don't understand the intricacies of some of the discussion on this site, but both of them seem fairly close to me.

Spin doctor, from my perspective, is teaching a weight shift from behind like SW. Is there some ELI5 movement you can describe that might explain what is different between them lol?

 

[HyzerRoc]

I'm a bit curious what you mean by a fundamental difference between this spin doctor guy and SW. I admit I don't understand the intricacies of some of the discussion on this site, but both of them seem fairly close to me.

What I have noticed watching the first video the OP posted is that the guy in the video at least demonstrates the movement of the legs differently than I have learned from the buttwipe drill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=385s
When you do the drill, you will notice that the back-leg stays straight for quite some time as you slide against the wall and lower your butt, buildung pressure on the instep of the left foot. When you then start bracing by doing a crush the can move with the drive leg, your drive leg will straighten out, wiping your right butt-cheek against the wall while the backleg simultaneously tucks in because your hip turns. You can see this in the Will Schusterick gif playing in the video of the SpinDoctor as well. Schusterick build leverage against the instep of the left foot, when he then starts bracing the left foot lifts off the ground before his back-leg starts to tuck in.The way SpinDoctor demonstrates the move he is squishing the bug as his left leg is still supporting his weight.

What is similar is the way both demonstrate the butt leading the way
https://youtu.be/ZlyD1ynQrh4

Just two things I have noticed, I hope this makes sense without accompanying pics.

 

[RowingBoats]

What I have noticed watching the first video the OP posted is that the guy in the video at least demonstrates the movement of the legs differently than I have learned from the buttwipe drill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=385s
When you do the drill, you will notice that the back-leg stays straight for quite some time as you slide against the wall and lower your butt, buildung pressure on the instep of the left foot. When you then start bracing by doing a crush the can move with the drive leg, your drive leg will straighten out, wiping your right butt-cheek against the wall while the backleg simultaneously tucks in because your hip turns. You can see this in the Will Schusterick gif playing in the video of the SpinDoctor as well. Schusterick build leverage against the instep of the left foot, when he then starts bracing the left foot lifts off the ground before his back-leg starts to tuck in.The way SpinDoctor demonstrates the move he is squishing the bug as his left leg is still supporting his weight.

What is similar is the way both demonstrate the butt leading the way
https://youtu.be/ZlyD1ynQrh4

Just two things I have noticed, I hope this makes sense without accompanying pics.

Admittedly I only really understand the swing as a larger, holistic movement, but SpinDoctor really, really doesn't seem to be teaching the squish the bug method. I watched some of his footage where he is actually throwing, and he doesn't have obviously bad form from my perspective.

I haven't watched much though, so maybe he has videos that say something else.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Admittedly I only really understand the swing as a larger, holistic movement, but SpinDoctor really, really doesn't seem to be teaching the squish the bug method. I watched some of his footage where he is actually throwing, and he doesn't have obviously bad form from my perspective.

I haven't watched much though, so maybe he has videos that say something else.

Just to make it clear, it is what I saw in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrT4sbi8cHg

I do not know much about his other videos or his actual form. I also only talked about what he demonstrated through his movement. In the video a fair bit of weight rests on his left foot as he demonstrates how the hips turn.

 

[Brychanus]

I can mark up an image when I have a minute if helpful. Here's what I notice so far including related drill experiments.

Jaani is definitely not squishing the bug (recall that StB is when the rear leg is forced into internal rotation with weaker interior muscles while weight is still on it), and he does have a version of a weight shift leading "from behind." But he tends to split his foot pressure with his spine centered and stuck between his feet in drill moves. In the drill motions in the top link in this thread, he is tipping a bit but since his weight is split between his feet he doesn't fall, which explains some of the upper body differences (I am still working through those because they appear to differ in a couple other interesting ways). Notice also in the IMG above how his leading knee is hanging just inside the leading hip while he puts pressure on it. Doing that motion with that amount of pressure in a real throw often places a lot of strain on the interior knee- I used to do that too and enjoyed another minor injury.

SW's drills typically lack that feature, and the posture through his upper body is counterrotating the shift and turning the front leg and knee away, but without putting pressure on the front knee until it is just ahead of the front hip and shifts everything together abruptly, like in his Door frame drill and Will's throw above. You can also see in moves like the Turbo Encabulator drills or Kick the Can that he emphasizes more of the swing of the whole body on a tilted axis and is never on both feet at the same time. If Jaani did Ride the Bull for example taking his slow mo mechanics there literally, I think the pool cue would remain more vertical spinning more on that vertical axis, and not really pendulum back and forth much toward each foot.

When Jaani actually throws these points look somewhat mitigated, and he moves from leg to leg more quickly (ie, in terms of getting less trapped between his feet in general, not just absolute speed) than the motions in his hip videos, but with some vestiges of that action that perhaps distinguishes his "ride the bull" from SW's.

The reason I'm paying more attention to this personally is because I've been looking at whose moves do or do not closely match the farthest throwing pros. Jaani's another interesting case where he is throwing quite far despite these potential differences in his slow/drill moves, and shades of the drill moves appear in his form even though the overall moves becomes pretty effective and allows him to shift quicker without hurting himself.

In terms of fundamental mechanics, I encourage players to study everything carefully and form their own conclusions. Studying the history of the Spin and Throw debates around here is relevant if you want to burn an afternoon.

 

[seedlings]

Just to make it clear, it is what I saw in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrT4sbi8cHg

I do not know much about his other videos or his actual form. I also only talked about what he demonstrated through his movement. In the video a fair bit of weight rests on his left foot as he demonstrates how the hips turn.

Tristian Tanner uses the exact same illustration for how it 'feels' to throw. In my experience this was vitally helpful to know, even if it is an exaggeration (which is what every drill does).

 

[Brychanus]

I am always quick to agree that drills are exaggerations of motions and feels. Reminder that I find a lot of what Jaani teaches in style and content quite lovely.

What I have my eye on in general is where mechanical leaks or potential safety issues could arise. Sometimes these things don't matter and the body figures it even when a drill move is suspect. Other times people end up with mechanical leaks or injuries.

Tristan's posture and transition move through the legs and body also differs from Jaani's in the way I described above. I'll show it more clearly this time. The vertical orange line is the position of the front hip. The blue slanted line is the axis of balance through the posture. The green or yellow lines (top to bottom) estimate the average alignment of the spine, the femur, and the shin. Notice that in each of the three players on the bottom, the leading knee is slightly more toward the target than the leading hip, which will take less lateral stress off the knee if it inherits the full weight of the body. The pendulum/body axis (blue line) is consistent with the Ride the Bull axis in the gif below. That's all I was emphasizing above. One can continue to look at Jaani's posture, foot angles, likely ground pressure, and so on and work through the differences - watch and try how he moves then go back to any number of ground pressure videos.

Practical advice: watch in real time and imagine where the pool cue would be in each player, and how the body aligns and shifts foot to foot, and where the spine is moving. Then try each player's move (carefully) yourself:

Not really the topic here but worth mentioning: while Tristan has posture more similar to Will & SW than Jaani there through the body, TT ends up allowing his leading elbow to come out of leverage relative to his shoulder in his drill move ("chicken wing"). As a bit of individualized form trivia, TT tends to hook all his shots hyzer in real throws because he puts his body more in the way of his swing than most top players. Feel vs. real/drill vs. throw? Maybe worth looking at.

Just things I've picked up along the way wading through countless drill moves.

 

[Sheep]

Admittedly I only really understand the swing as a larger, holistic movement, but SpinDoctor really, really doesn't seem to be teaching the squish the bug method. I watched some of his footage where he is actually throwing, and he doesn't have obviously bad form from my perspective.

I haven't watched much though, so maybe he has videos that say something else.

he's 100% against squish the bug and hates that people teach it.

As well as spin and throw.

But a large majority of everyone at some point fell into the "spin and throw" camp for a bit.
Everyone looked at rotation as the drive for distance.

But people fail to see its a horse power AND torque sort of situation, not just horse power. Gotta have clean speed AND power to make a powerful throw.

His method is really brace driven, and being that I literally try everything except for squish the bug when it comes to coaching to understand everything I can every way I can.
uhh...

I changed my concepts a lot after chatting with him.

Simplicity in throwing.

Use the technobabble between coaches to talk about coach stuff.
And to make sure when people do really dumb things we understand it.

But when it comes to teaching. Apply KISS and go.

 

[RowingBoats]

Brychanus I see what you mean. I suppose I do fill in some of the blanks now automatically, but I think there is another reason for the differences in these particular images.

It's really hard to actually slow down the swing and have it look correct imo, so while his demonstration is not showing ideal posture, I don't think its because he is trying to teach it that way. I could be wrong, I seriously don't claim to have any kind of authority on the swing.

I will say that I got a chuckle out of his slowed down pics being compared to that specific Will video hahaha. Im a standstill player and have watched that freaking video like 10000 times now. Smoothest **** ever.

 

[Jaani]

Hi,

I'm Jaani, and I appreciate your input. Really do!

I just wanted to remind you, that analysing my video demonstrations where I show people the moves in a hyper exaggerated slow motion and comparing them to Will's actual throwing is maybe not the most productive way to dissect my teaching.

I am in no way capable of throwing the way I teach, and I am willing to admit it, after over 2 decades of throwing the way I do. But I do know the way I wanted to throw and how to teach it, and I am glad that you seemed to grasp it so nicely here.

Thank you!

 

[Brychanus]

Hi,

I'm Jaani, and I appreciate your input. Really do!

I just wanted to remind you, that analysing my video demonstrations where I show people the moves in a hyper exaggerated slow motion and comparing them to Will's actual throwing is maybe not the most productive way to dissect my teaching.

I am in no way capable of throwing the way I teach, and I am willing to admit it, after over 2 decades of throwing the way I do. But I do know the way I wanted to throw and how to teach it, and I am glad that you seemed to grasp it so nicely here.

Thank you!

Hey man, appreciate you popping in! Just to be clear, nothing I am saying is personal and as I've mentioned I appreciate a lot of your approach. Studying distinctions in swing teaching philosophy and history has become part of my core interests an own philosophy. You may find the next part interesting and I'd be specifically interested also in your reply.

Brychanus I see what you mean. I suppose I do fill in some of the blanks now automatically, but I think there is another reason for the differences in these particular images.

Sure thing, and don't get me wrong, I'm increasingly mindful of the difference between certain drill moves and throwing acts in any case.

It's really hard to actually slow down the swing and have it look correct imo, so while his demonstration is not showing ideal posture, I don't think its because he is trying to teach it that way. I could be wrong, I seriously don't claim to have any kind of authority on the swing.

I do think in general SW has put significant emphasis on repeatable motions no matter the tempo that encode his basic "posture theory" of the swing, and that his swing philosophy was directly inspired by slow swings in golf kinetic development. For instance, watch Ben Hogan's slow motion drill swing compared to his real swing. What's the same? What's different?



That's part of your answer maybe to what drill a smart person would make to create and reinforce the basic chain in disc golf - one can throw out of a slow motion swing, which is generally easier in standstills. Then consider - what does and doesn't change as the body speeds up? Adds steps? etc.

I will say that I got a chuckle out of his slowed down pics being compared to that specific Will video hahaha. Im a standstill player and have watched that freaking video like 10000 times now. Smoothest **** ever.

You know, I think very, very few people will ever move like that kid. Actually, I keep forgetting then remembering that part of why I hurt myself early on was watching Will and basically completely misunderstanding what was happening, and then later also misunderstanding why my body anatomically wouldn't ever move exactly like his to power my swings. ALways gotta take what you can learn and retrofit it to your body.

Thus my obsession. <3

 

[Jaani]

It's very important (the most important) to remember that, what we see happen in Will's or any other pro's form is NOT the way they intend to move. As we move quickly, the momentum takes over anyway and we end up in positions we never intended to. That is why people talk about the lawn mower and the "pull" even if the body never moves like that. But the intention can resemble the pull, and we may even feel like pulling the chord while never actually looking like we do.

It's mostly because of the follow through, which makes the body rotate even if we don't rotate intentionally. And despite I and TT is showing, the elbow really never gets to that position even if we intend to chicken wing. Tha bracing and the hips makes the body spin before we get the elbow out, but I if never even try to "break the glass" the arm might just collapse to the body and the elbof falls to less than 90 degrees.

It really is a different game to teach the feeling, to feel and to throw, and then look at the throw in slow motion.