First form check!

[Brychanus]

Hey fellas, this suddenly feels way more fun and less body abusive again. In the second two shots here I was messing with waltz concepts to help play with settling back like a pitcher winding up before the first move, lmk if I overcooked it. Maybe 3rd was best. Still need to maintain aggressive tilt a little better coming into the X-step I think.

 

[Brychanus]

Dude this is blowing my mind. Despite all the words here I am describing what I feel and how it helps me understand what we see. We've talked about all of this but the Waltz context is helping me.

So I played 27 holes in the most challenging wooded course I've ever played today. I started out throwing hot garbage but remained committed to the new form. I shot around even for the last 18 with some really smooth stuff and I was giving up more strokes to putts than drives again.

The 3rd throw style from my last post is clearly functioning much better than anything. Here's that one.


If I conceptualize the whole move before the X-step as a Waltz balance/tilt problem, I notice and can feel the following in real time now:

(1) Now if I use my Waltz "prep step" to mount my starting position tall on the rear leg and then have the patience to move off with the correct tilt (just like Waltz box step) rather than leaning away, I also get my "ball (CoM) rolling down the ramp" like my dance training. I am also now pre-conditioning my "coiled" athletic posture in the backswing like a pitcher on the mound. These are all working together for the first time.

I can feel this red ramp effect clearly happening unhindered in real time in my first move now. Definitely the first time ever consistently. And this is exactly how my Waltz works:

(2) Something that is unusual in Waltz cross steps but makes a better X-step is to maintain the tilt/keep the whole posture more "loaded back". In Waltz, you usually let the tilt swing all the way back and forth for most patterns. Occasionally though you keep the tilt "loaded back" and your movement gets forward and low when you're moving down a line. E.g., like these two experts: in the first part the tilt swings all the way back and forth in their box step (the traveling rotational steps), and you see them get long and then tall as they move between high-low-high phases. Then toward the end when they move along the back line of the room, the tilt stays more "loaded back" when they move faster and lower coming out of the initially high pattern - this is the same as letting their CoM lead their strides. I want to move more like that move down the line of the room from my starting position.

I also think my pelvis wants to open early because I'm "letting the tilt go" from my rear side too early. If I instead think of it like maintaining my box step tilt back aggressively through the step before the x-step (which is the same as building forward momentum), I am able to start to change it because I can feel it right away.

Picture's worth a thousand words. The green lines are where I want my balance to be if I view the first and second step "down the mound" as a waltz maneuver. I'm still tending to lean back due to my old habit because I am "letting my tilt go" too ahead of the X-step (red line). I think each pro loads their tilt a little differently, but e.g. Catrina's move is clearly keeping it more on the tilted and loaded side all the way through her move and only releases it when she plants! In contrast, I'm letting my tilt leak too forward early, which means I basically have to load it further back again - slightly awkward and inefficient. I need to keep the balance/tilt loaded in the right direction as I stride until I start to shift to plant. I will probably be less aggressively tilted than Catrina out of my first move, but that also means I'll get a bigger centrifugal/whip effect out from my body mass and wide shoulders when I plant. I chose Cat's camera angle because it makes it a little more obvious:



(3) The last part is what I gained from standstills. Once the X-step lands, you continue to load it back into the tilted posture in transition and then "release/unload" landing in the plant, which is also at the same time you're building and then releasing the coil because of the athletic rather than Waltz posture. The body tilt is shifting at the same time (like a full waltz box step) until you land in "braced tilt." This is like letting the pendulum accelerate out of the shifting tilt of the whole posture like a wrecking ball heading out of the backswing, boosted by the muscular chain on top of the momentum you already gained for "free." I.e., Hershyzer, Double Dragon, Kick the ball, etc.:



After about 9 holes I managed to keep the tilt forward more often in the X-step and the effect was immediately noticeable on the shot power, effort, and accuracy. And sweet Christmas did that feel awesome today.

So yes, my left leg is gimpy and I'll always have a gimp in my gait, but there's a clear motor learning opportunity here building on the Waltz. So I'm going to reinforce my "prep step" to get long and tall and tilted into the first move, and see if I can solidify the aggressive tilt all the way into the X-step. Waltz is the most natural way it seems like I can connect my posture to all the drilling and the throw.

 

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

general theory note
Seems like your right leg is the dominant one* that does most of the work/lifting propelling your mass this way and that when you locomote in daily life. In the right-hand-back-hand-x-move throw, left leg should be the greater propellant (right is the stopper). In most of your basement throws, you are creating most of your forward energy with the right leg, which is heavily influencing your posture/lean. As you know, when a biped moves from one leg to another, the bottom of the spine moves toward the new-weight-bearing appendage while the top of the spine moves counter to it. The magnitude of the bend/lean/posture is related to that of the force being created by the weight-bearing-appendage. So, in the context of moving laterally in the right-hand-back-hand-x-move, using the right leg as main propellant generally creates more lean toward back of tee pad.

*here's a dominance test: sit on the floor and try to get to a standing position. Which leg did you use? Interesting note - it seems like it's physically impossible (without help from a teammate) to stand up from a on-the-floor-seated-position using both legs equally to lift your mass.

Ok this is a sick post. Not my thread buuuuuut I feel like I've gotten on the right track with a 'weight targetward' cue before but had no idea that my left leg took over some when I did that but it absolutely does. Putting emphasis on the left leg drive feels somewhat alien and uncoordinated but with some practice I feel like it will be much easier to keep my weight forward to 'fall into the brace' rather than 'jump into it'

I wish I could pop off on how this reminds me of Josh Anthon like the cool kids but I'll just say it's obvious one of his main goals is to keep his weight forward and he succeeds despite how ineloquent it looks. Fred flintstone ~sidewinder




I have been thinking about revisiting that cue recently because it was effective but I came back after not throwing all winter and was throwing as far as I was before. I know what I'm doing when the weather clears up.

Is this what slingshot means by back leg disc golf?

EDIT: oh my god I feel like this solved all my lingering posture issues I was fighting myself by being right leg dominant. Only towel(t-shirt) drill so far but it's never been easier to smash or to do things like leave the disc in place and timing the last moment full extension. This might be excitement and hyperbole but I feel like THERE'S SO MUCH SPACE IN FRONT OF MY CHEST.

Edit2: It's much easier to balance with the weight forward when committing to this idea. The reason this is good is because weight forward=instant weight transfer? Makes sense to me.

Edit 3: No, since if you're weight is back it will transfer before you brace but it has to wait for your COM? Something to catch up before you can 'sit in the chair' and this is slow. So essentially with your weight forward you can use your momentum to fall into the brace.

 

[Brychanus]

Ok this is a sick post. Not my thread buuuuuut I feel like I've gotten on the right track with a 'weight targetward' cue before but had no idea that my left leg took over some when I did that but it absolutely does. Putting emphasis on the left leg drive feels somewhat alien and uncoordinated but with some practice I feel like it will be much easier to keep my weight forward to 'fall into the brace' rather than 'jump into it'

I wish I could pop off on how this reminds me of Josh Anthon like the cool kids but I'll just say it's obvious one of his main goals is to keep his weight forward and he succeeds despite how ineloquent it looks. Fred flintstone ~sidewinder




I have been thinking about revisiting that cue recently because it was effective but I came back after not throwing all winter and was throwing as far as I was before. I know what I'm doing when the weather clears up.

Is this what slingshot means by back leg disc golf?

EDIT: oh my god I feel like this solved all my lingering posture issues I was fighting myself by being right leg dominant. Only towel(t-shirt) drill so far but it's never been easier to smash or to do things like leave the disc in place and timing the last moment full extension. This might be excitement and hyperbole but I feel like THERE'S SO MUCH SPACE IN FRONT OF MY CHEST.

Edit2: It's much easier to balance with the weight forward when committing to this idea. The reason this is good is because weight forward=instant weight transfer? Makes sense to me.

Edit 3: No, since if you're weight is back it will transfer before you brace but it has to wait for your COM? Something to catch up before you can 'sit in the chair' and this is slow. So essentially with your weight forward you can use your momentum to fall into the brace.

Socradeez: Dude is a great but less frequent contributor, and a great guy. If you haven't, I highly recommend just searching his post history in his profile and seeing how he talks about things and shares clips to emphasize what he's saying. There's some briliant stuff there. We still correspond sometimes.

I'll start with the general idea and then get to your good questions. I'm actually glad you brought up Anthon because I was just thinking about his move again and he's another "extreme that proves the rule."

Ideally your "Drive leg" is yes- driving. I still think about it as (1) part of the fundamental Figure 8 locomotion such as what happens when you walk forward, and gained from childhood and (2) a high leverage move going sideways(ish) with your CoM leading (again, exactly like walking or running forward, but sideways).

People get messed up in their BH because (1) the move is usually unnatural moving sideways and (2) you're backswinging or reaching back in a way you probably haven't before. It's a huge balance problem and you can't "fake" it. That's why most x steps are deficient and why Sidewinder emphasizes getting as much as you can out of standstill mechanics first.

You generally don't want to anatomically extend off of the drive leg because it violates the above "Figure 8" action - this probably doesn't happen when you walk***. Pitchers don't do it. Cricketeers don't do it. Batters don't do it. Racketers don't, high level DG backhanders and forehanders don't, etc. etc. etc.

Part of the action is moving instep to instep in athletic posture, which is basically just another part of fundamental locomotion like walking. It's Sidewinder's "gas pedal," part of ride the Bull (plus the fix he gave you), and so on.

So are Anthon and Waltz the "same" move? In one sense you want to say "no! They look so different!" But on the other hand given that I have both Waltzed (decently) and run (mediocre, but possible), I can tell you that if Anthon is the "runniest" form we've seen, Waltz is just the opposite end of the spectrum getting as long and smooth as possible in that fundamental locomotion pattern. That's why it also has the same side bend and tilt you want to access in disc golf. Anthon's form just keeps everything quick and compressed and horizontal. My evolving move is just emphasizing the "length" of every part of the move, which also means it can either go high-low-high (vertical) or get stretched out long and low (horizontal). It's still just a fancy walk. A pitcher's stride, Hershyzer function exactly the same way in athletic posture. That was the connection that just "clicked" for me in my own body for the first time when I do my hybrid Waltz-Hershyzer windup.*** What I lack in quickness and running ability I can make up for to some extent by getting as "long" as possible and getting a deceiving amount of momentum from "Waltzing into it." If you've ever seen expert Waltz in person you would start to understand just how damn big and fast their moves are. Like a graceful Temple of Doom scenario - you better get the hell out of their way, or hope they care enough to avoid you.

In Waltz and Disc golf, you usually get a similar evolution - people start with stricter angles, then get more comfortable with the natural (but initially awkward and off balance) longer motions. A novice waltzer takes tiny steps in 90 degrees moves. Almost everyone starts that way, looks uncomfortable and kind of robotic, and additional gets nervous holding a partner typically of the opposite sex while being observed. Then if you keep going and have a good instructor, you get longer and longer, which means you get more and more tilted. Then the really high-level motion kicks in when you get very tall, very tilted, and what is still a "linear" move anatomically (leverage) becomes that beautiful, graceful dance (I got to the "tier" below those dancers in the gif I shared, but was starting to work on these things, especially deep tilt).

Slingshot: I'll try to make a fair summary. He is correct that you need your back leg to throw, he just violated the Figure 8 action. He keeps his weight loaded back longer, and then forces his leg into internal rotation from the loaded position (which is what people call "squishing the bug," and even there people are meaning slightly different things). Then when he plants he keeps his balance more trapped between his feet, which also is the same as what forces people to "spin-shift" like we talk about frequently around here. At various times, you can also see his rear ankle actually buckling and rebounding in his X-step because he is putting so much jerk force into it, and I think unfortunately this is part of his definition of "athletic." Most golfers, baseballers, disc golfers do not use that maneuver. When they do, there is (peer-reviewed) evidence of higher injury risk. Instead, they use the fundamental Figure 8 (like walking and running naturally). Pros even talk sometimes about getting off the rear foot "as quick as possible" in disc golf. BTW some high-level baseball instruction has started to use this "staying back" concept again and you see batters using much more effortful moves in an effort to "buy more time" to see the ball and hit it (Bryce Harper is an example). So in the marketplace of ideas it is alive. I would just ask rhetorically "if you can do the same thing more efficiently and with less injury risk, why wouldn't you?" Everyone is free to make their own choices.

 

[Brychanus]

Mostly for Sidewinder:

Your left leg being physically shorter now makes a lot sense, wish I knew(or remember) this info before. Makes sense why you tend to lean back away. My left leg is slightly longer than my right.

I had mentioned it way back I think but also never shared how gruesome the inside looks, which no doubt probably influences the leverage and how I balance on it too lol. Plus you've done a lot for me in any case my friend

***My takeaway on weird left leg stuff: I've been walking around and am now convinced that my left leg and gait are just a fundamental problem that explains a lot of weirdness you have patiently tried to help me with. My flexibility moving both ways is much better than 6 months ago, but my gait still favors one side. When I run forward, I have a limp and my pelvis tends to hang a little lower on the left side. My left leg tends to extend near the end of the stride as I quicken my pace, and my right does not. The leverage off the left instep is a bit different than the right, and the swivel in the left hip isn't as "figure 8-ey" as my right. If I try to level out my pelvis and walk or run, my left leg automatically starts to extend even more to keep moving, unlike my right. My waltz "drive" step is stronger and more balanced off my right leg than my left. The left leg also tends to tire faster (that I can keep working on). So I think it's reasonable to assume I might never completely "fix" part of this, and I will always probably be biased to lean away at least a bit in transition. If I keep focusing on the tilt in transition and the leanaway gets better, my guess is that I'll gradually find more drive leg leverage staying compressed, and my right leg will naturally get a bit more bent as I shift to plant. I'll just take what I can get, and always "Waltz into it." My move through the legs might end up more like baby Gibson (~0:57) at best than a "top tier" shift, and probably a little gimpier on the rear side:

 

[Brychanus]

Ok fam, I am going to hunker down for a while with my new learning and see if we can get whatever athletic tilt & transition available to my weird side. Little bit of Waltz, little bit of Terry Tate, little bit of "low man wins leverage" cues on my mind for now. I was starting to find little bits of progress today but it needs weeks not days, so I'll keep at it. My drive accuracy/ease is already higher on the course. Looking forward to getting outside more.



Edit: it was cold but I somehow squeaked out a -7 on local shorties messing with the move to make it feel more obvious when I'm tilting away vs maintaining aggressive posture. The best swings felt awesome and had really nice flights. Though balance retraining will take time!

 

[Brychanus]

More notes & status update, I think I'm still ~2 weeks out from feedback request (no April Fools lol):

1. I've now thoroughly tested/am convinced that pump knuckles up/dumbell swing is "better" if I want to move like this. Helps me stay taller before I get lower, gets my arm rotating in the right direction, and keeps me from blowing up or collapsing my backswing in transition. It's also making it easier to stay tilted forward in balance. Gradually getting more power into the disc.

2. Even when I "feel" tilted forward in the X-step like Waltz balance and get that DD or Hershyzer-like effect, on camera it's still appearing to be right on the line of "leaning away," which I think makes more sense now given my weird left leg and gait. If I take it too far, I tip off toward the target a little. Old muscle memory is kicking and screaming and old tilt always pokes thru a bit, so I keep pushing. Seeking sweet spot.

Learning Strategy: basically any time I feel the "tilt" start to spoil like the first one or notice the pump sucking I try to always just stop and reset. Here I was still messing with pump angle and more or less aggressive tilt in X-step. Looks and feels "smooth" to me but is deceptively "athletic" and I was getting gassed after like 20 throws w/ new chain recruitment in my rear leg (which started to fatigue first and make me tilt away again so I stopped). But never felt jamming or forced. Some of these looked better to me. Will keep grinding.

 

[Kjimsern]

I have the craddle the baby style, wouldnt using that to create a pump/cue be better. ( less stuff happening )

This is a very interesting thread, i have to say.

 

[Brychanus]

I have the craddle the baby style, wouldnt using that to create a pump/cue be better. ( less stuff happening )

This is a very interesting thread, i have to say.

Hey man,

From a pure control perspective in the end, probably yes. But it has been a while since I talked about this so I'll mention a few things.

I don't think it's always true that a full pendulum pump = less accuracy or body control (think Feldberg, McBeth at some points and especially early on), but you would also imagine that if the 6x thought it was a clear competitive advantage he'd be using it. Feldberg still uses it as a momentum and efficiency trick, and to some extent it is compensatory for him. For me, it is a learning tool at minimum...

From experience, there is tradeoff for myself in developing driving form between the full pump and the "baby cradle" pump (and what I now have seen very often in other people):

1. Full pendulum has always been the easiest way to get my body mass moving forward aggressively with relative unathletic/weak legs and also get my coil and backswing "fully loaded." The pump literally helps "pull" me toward the target so I'm not just relying on my posture and legs alone. It helps me make up for what I lack in levers and athleticism to an extent. It helps more of my power initially come from raw momentum and not muscle. It feels like Thor's Mjolnir pulling me forward and a bit off the ground in my X-step:

Thor hammer spin on Make a GIF

_premium

makeagif.com

2. By making the move as "long" as possible it gets easier to see and feel kinks and breaks in my posture in all phases of the move. My form is still raw enough that a cradle pump always makes it easier to "hide" issues from the camera and my own body awareness. For me in particular it also helps me learn from certain Waltz balance tricks, where the moves are very long.

3. It is much, much harder to "spin shift" with a full pump with any accuracy, so it helps force you to learn to throw in a tilted axis in balance. This forces my body to learn how to learn new balance by initially being off balance. It is not necessarily easy, but it can work for the stubborn (try it! ;-)).

The pump also is one way to aim the whole move. For control I either shrink the pump down along with my whole move, and/or just tempo it with the rest of my form when I play. I use it like Philo (closest example) but with the more vertical axis you see me use, or young McBeth throwing upshots. Over time this has made my upshots both easier and more accurate.

I am rapidly getting more accuracy with the full pendulum suddenly, probably because I'm forcing my balance to improve somewhat.

When I tried to fix all this in a baby cradle pump, I had basically the same problems with either (1) leaning away or (2) tipping out of balance off the rear leg. It's because I was never building actual control over my balance, and never completing the coil in good posture. I had developed a lot of the "kinetic chain" but I could not fix the rear side. If you watch closely you'll see me leaning away and tipping off a bit, leaving the rear arm hanging behind. I was never getting a good enough, complete backswing and posture in balance to fix it with the little cradle pump. In hindsight, my physically bad rear leg was always an issue and I am not sure I can ever fully fix it, but maybe I can learn something close with the full pump.



I haven't given up on the baby cradle pump. I may go back to it someday and sprinkle it in sometimes. But right now I haven't yet learned everything the full pump has to teach me...

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[Brychanus]

 

[Brychanus]

Aight, I'll check in because my balance control in the first move is starting to become consistent.

System of a down: I tried to add a little more "athletic bounce" while not becoming "jack in the box."* This kinda changes the feel from a waltz step to a more athletic step. My distance and accuracy have improved again. My standstills (which I am still throwing all the time) are a bit more powerful and accurate again too.

Got rear of tee and there is some evidence of progress off the rear leg just by focusing (a lot) on the tilted balance moving from the rear side. I'm still not sure how fixable the West-East part is for me with my weird left leg but it's less dramatically bad now:



Anyway, side of tee I'm showing you what happens (1) knuckles up(ish) vertical shift, (2) knuckles upish/more horizontal shift, (3) knuckles a bit more like yours (@sidewinder22), more in-between shift. I want to revisit/am having a hard time conceptualizing compression in my case. I guess on the one hand it might be acceptable to have some rise going into the release (yours vs. corey ellis standstill), which might be proportional to my gimped left leg, but I don't completely know.







*Still love the phrases around here



@Kjimsern I tested it and I am (1) more powerful/lower effort and (2) more accurate with my full pump in my current form. Like SW pointed out there are a lot of control golfers who used full pumps at least historically, so it's still interesting to me that we don't see very many full pumps on tour anymore.

 

[Brychanus]

@sidewinder22

Huh. This is suddenly coming to mind again:


Was thinking maybe I should take another 3-4 weeks focusing on
(1) balance on the rear side in my "windup" and x-step transition +
(2) generally a bit more athleticism through the legs (if I caught your System of a Down meaning).

I was tempted to mess around with other stuff but it seems like my body/brain still have adapting to do. Sometimes both the N-S and W-E dynamics were looking better today.

Side - suddenly my balance appeared more centered to me...


Rear(ish) - 2nd one W-E started to look better...

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah GGs centrifugal whip effect is taunting me at this point lmao.

So I have no clue if I can actually balance properly to do this drastic of a dingle with my weird leg, but one way to find out. I'm also not sure how well it will work with my own pendulum pump- GG carries and windmills his arm way out in front in his windup proportional to his pocket when he throws... Hmm.



I am not sure any player before or since has had such a dramatic centrifugal move, and I keep seeing new things suddenly when I look at him.

This is my current favorite angle. Like, his CoG/mAss really is winding and whipping around his whole damn arm-disc unit like a washing machine on overdrive. If a lurker hasn't paid close attention before watch the dramatic move his ass and center make relative to his arm. Disgusting.

 

[Sewer bill]

His drives are even more spooky in person.

Some clues for your form sleuthing, gg used to not x step on full power shots, he would run and hop and click his feet together and fly into the brace. He also used to hit his back on his follow through which is another clue about how it may not work as well for someone with less range of motion to get too close to the type of swing he has.

 

[Brychanus]

His drives are even more spooky in person.

Some clues for your form sleuthing, gg used to not x step on full power shots, he would run and hop and click his feet together and fly into the brace. He also used to hit his back on his follow through which is another clue about how it may not work as well for someone with less range of motion to get too close to the type of swing he has.

Yeah I am already thinking it's going to be "Gurthie lite" whatever it is. I don't think I have anywhere near the hip, thoracic, or shoulder mobility he has. So maybe the pendulum pump is a good "constraint" that helps keep my momentum moving mostly targetward without pretending my body has a range of motion it just.... doesn't lmao

 

[sidewinder22]

Espen has one of my favorite hops.

 

[Brychanus]

His drives are even more spooky in person.

Some clues for your form sleuthing, gg used to not x step on full power shots, he would run and hop and click his feet together and fly into the brace. He also used to hit his back on his follow through which is another clue about how it may not work as well for someone with less range of motion to get too close to the type of swing he has.

Espen has one of my favorite hops.

I'm a little sore but couldn't resist trying. I did hammer Dingle, was terrified about accidental release, then right to disc. A couple of them had these ridiculous whippy spikes. WTF was I missing?

Way easier on the smash side than the backswing first try. I don't know that I can get a hop and clean as Esken but it makes sense to me. Lemme see if I can get my slightly busted version of that to work in the next few days.

"GG lite" project underway. Like a drier, much less flavorful jerky.

solid guys, thank you

 

[Sewer bill]

I'm worried about your gas pipe lol.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm worried about your gas pipe lol.

Me too dude, I think I need more blankets again lmao

I managed to get my knees a little looser and worked on the hop a bit. These feel insaaaaanely better. I'll keep working on the hop side. Wow wow wow. I'll also try them on the course before I get too much "basement vision," hopefully Thursday. I don't know how worried to be about these like 45 degree hyzers at the moment lmao.

Wow.



Edit: one last side view. I'm still always leaning away but maybe it can end up part more like a "feature and not a bug"? I'll search around the space of Esken hop and GG lean. This move is wild hehe