First form check!

[Sewer bill]

I think once you start getting closer to "flat" release with your gg move you'll find your speed will go up a little and the pendulum pump is going to help maintain tempo but the swing will feel dampened a little, which is probably much safer than just digging in and elbow locking.

 

[Brychanus]

I think once you start getting closer to "flat" release with your gg move you'll find your speed will go up a little and the pendulum pump is going to help maintain tempo but the swing will feel dampened a little, which is probably much safer than just digging in and elbow locking.

Can you say a little more about "dampened" and "elbow locking" in this context?

 

[Sewer bill]

Can you say a little more about "dampened" and "elbow locking" in this context?

Your pump is pretty vertical arm outstretched and your gg swing is pulling in "horizontal", while they should have no bearing on eachother the closer to "flat" you get the more you'll perceive the sensation of a dampened swing. It's probably more psychological and less mechanical. It's like when a stair is half an inch shorter and doesn't trip you but it makes you pay attention.

The elbow locking is a potential byproduct of the gg style swing and is mechanical where if you brace correctly and get the correct height of the elbow for your anatomy during the swing you will experience more late swing speed than you previously encountered with your wider swing, this can even in a toned down situation be a gotcha moment but also poses a risk to the elbow if your follow through can't keep up. This is where range of motion and flexibility become helpful.

 

[Brychanus]

Nice, thanks!

I think my brain can already sense/predict that first thing happening and it is easier to just let it come out about as hyzer as an actual low arm slot hammer swing at first. That's interesting. I'll try not to worry too much about it while I get used to the new "hammer drop" and see what happens when I have real shots that demand more subdued release angles.

That second thing definitely seems possible just watching his move and I was wary of trying to copy it outright (like, who can actually do that extreme move other than him? Crazy). If I have more of a pendulum arm and let the whole arc/spiral come through pretty vertical, the follow through back toward the ceiling over my rear side seems easier on my arm so far. Dunno if that will remain the same for other and flatter angles but I'll be cautious about this...

 

[Brychanus]

Your pump is pretty vertical arm outstretched and your gg swing is pulling in "horizontal", while they should have no bearing on eachother the closer to "flat" you get the more you'll perceive the sensation of a dampened swing. It's probably more psychological and less mechanical. It's like when a stair is half an inch shorter and doesn't trip you but it makes you pay attention.

I think this handful made me perceive what you were talking about. There was also less lean away to an extent.

It is hard to describe but there's this weird moment where the disc and hand are getting that "pound" effect but it feels different than my older move and I definitely felt my brain pausing to notice it.

These were kind of tentative while my brain was adjusting but maybe were getting somewhere. Especially last couple I was trying to get the plane to be less hyzer. I'll give my legs a break then try on the course.



Edit: Looking at the whole move I guess I'd assess that it's functioning better than this was. Some are better than others. There is noticeably more lateral shifting through my hips and posture in my setup and move than before (I have been focusing on this in all my standstills and preshot routines), and I can keep working at most of the same issues. Doing the pendulum/dingle/double dragon framework will probably keep me from prematurely failing to encode the key lessons.

Edit 2: Anatomy- I now think/understand part of the anatomical problem is that my rear hip is always doing more of a "C-like" motion (I think SocraDeez even pointed that out a while ago) than the Figure 8-like action I can find in my plant hip, and I now have identified that this is a fundamental problem in my gait and not just throwing. The leverage is just different than and less complete/significant than my plant leg. Esken hop or as close as I can get still makes a lot of sense to me so I can mitigate the impact of the impairment.

 

[Kjimsern]

i saw a video earlier today and someone mentioned that if you sling your left foot behind to much after plant, it can hurt the lower back.
( the kuoksa video about spin doctor )

Ive noticed we both kinda do it the same way, have you done some research on that?

 

[Brychanus]

i saw a video earlier today and someone mentioned that if you sling your left foot behind to much after plant, it can hurt the lower back.
( the kuoksa video about spin doctor )

Ive noticed we both kinda do it the same way, have you done some research on that?

Yes, and more than I've probably talked about this week. In general this is why I like learning so much about posture and balance and I am curious (and wary) of too much emphasis on smaller supporting muscles in sports moves. I'm a bit simple minded maybe, but if it doesn't function like normal running or walking, I'm personally likely to be more skeptical.

Maintaining a neutral spine and avoiding anterior pelvic tilt is part of protecting the lower back. There's enough peer reviewed research elsewhere that I don't feel the need to revisit the idea anymore for myself (for now).

If you walk or run forward, notice that there is a point where your legs swing in toward the other leg. That happens because of your "North South" (really "left to right" and vice versa) balanced tilt moving back and forth plus the natural flow of muscle loading and unloading. Some of the interior and exterior (adductors and abductors) manage dynamic stability in the lateral direction. Most of your weight is however managed by your butt quads hammies calves etc. for the "heaviest" part of the move.

When you throw, the rear leg counterbalance or swing should be proportional to the overall move, and if your posture is protecting your lower back it should likely be safer.

Of course, you can exaggerate anything, and force even more rear leg counter and swing. I've done a bit of that but I'm just always personally hesitant to make it significantly different from how other athletic motions seem to work.

Part of what is happening in my new GG "lite" move experiment is probably that I have my classic lean away, but I'm still landing in some kind of slightly ugly braced tilt. So the rear leg is following through into the counterbalance. I'm also getting more "juice" through my legs with the hop, so that kinetic "release" gets bigger the more active the legs are overall (I think).

I think it might get more subtle again if my balance improves and my mass gets more centered, I guess we'll find out!

Kuoksa's move is awesome btw- I just can't really do his move off the rear leg and balance like he does, so I rely more on body tilt and centrifugal force.

 

[jupiterboy]

Maybe it's like driving, like late braking. It's great if you have really robust brakes and great timing.

 

[Brychanus]

Maybe it's like driving, like late braking. It's great if you have really robust brakes and great timing.

Yeah, important to keep both in mind. I think no matter how good my timing gets, my "brakes" are going to be more like a 1985 Jeep's that haven't been well-maintained lol.

 

[jupiterboy]

Yeah, important to keep both in mind. I think no matter how good my timing gets, my "brakes" are going to be more like a 1985 Jeep's that haven't been well-maintained lol.

Don't make fun of my ride.

 

[Brychanus]

Don't make fun of my ride.

Hey, I'd ride in one of these any day.

 

[Brychanus]

Round report, v. Cool findings. This is just stuff I've "learned" today.

1. This move is bonkers. I love it. I'm commiting. It's going to be uniquely mine in a few ways, and I like that too.

2. Basement vs. Outside Exhibit A: I was going to shoot 18 but was having way too much fun off the tee on the open hole 6. I was initially having a hell of a time getting the swing plane/trajectory right to get the "tip of the whip/snap" factor. However, I started to get it and then the discs started to flip and ride their turn phase longer than before and kept drifting longer farther right than before even from medium to steep hyzer. Intent matters: once I finally stopped messing around and decided to score the hole I pulled out my favorite distance driver. I exceeded my best controlled distance shot ever on that hole. Legit ~400' right at the mouth of the upshot tunnel, almost exactly where I wanted it. The flight was beautiful to watch. I barely felt like I was working for that shit too. God that felt good. And only needed a narrow 3 step X. Wow.

3. Basement vs. Outside Exhibit B: My brace suddenly felt way more stable than it usually does. It's also dramatically recruiting a vertical brace force and putting the load squarely through my "posterior chain" group. My leg and butt are a little sore, but I think I was putting less lateral abuse on my knee. I am taking that to the bank.

4. Espen hop is clearly "correct" for this move even when I'm botching it a bit. Since I don't have great stability from that rear leg, as long as I'm getting "in front" of it and gaining momentum it works. I also was tempted to try literally clicking my heels like @Sewer bill mentioned but didn't quite get there lol

5. I do not think this move is easy to master but I perceptually Understand much better why both Feldy and GG moves work, I think.

6. Wisdom for a developing golfer: Trying to finesse shots out of this move is not for me right now. The tip of the whip is finicky like Bill predicted. For now this move is for when I want to smash hyzerflip control drives off the tee. I guess I can tell my wife why I'm buying a couple more discs! What a great day.

7. Fitness: my legs are only in good enough shape to pull off so many of these even though it "feels" easy. Will continue to work on fitness and space out practice. Will aim for 50/50 inside outside since that seems to help offset "basement vision" effects.


Swing thoughts right now and "dampening the pendulum/centrifuge:"
"This man thinks a lot!" Yes. But happily when I tee off I am just throwing hammers at this point.

Swing thoughts that seem worth focusing on:

(1) nail a balanced Espen hop. This is hard. Interestingly though, as long as my CoM is not getting caught up and I land in braced tilt, I can get a pretty sick "hit" on the disc.

(2) Land and commit like these guys, and even more like Clement than McBeth here, which makes my lever arm/dingle much bigger like GG (with my short arms). This is easier for me than (1) but obviously depends on (1). My guess is that it's going to take some time for my arm/grip to figure out where the "sweet spot" is between a completely straight arm vs. a bent arm.


Observation/hypothesis: my move will work sorta like Paul's, but more like GG's in how the disc "hammers out" because it will "drop" a little more vertically from my chest:


(3) direct the force out from the braced tilt more horizontal, which is hard to "capture" but possible from the vertical transition plane. This is hopefully just going to improve with intentional practice/actually targeting shots.





Fuzzy Force Ideas
Also, here's an idea that will probably help exactly no one and probably too abstract to be useful, but I was thinking about this again. GG's "3D centrifuge" in his motion is enormous in X, Y, and Z dimensions. He is big in the vertical, horizontal, and West-East planes overall. He has maybe the largest non-straight-arm redirection out from his center and widest pocket of anyone I've seen. Mine is probably going to end up more "squashed" in the West-East dimension, but I am taller and stand with less hip hinge (right image). Mathematically GG's move involves two very large Ellipsoids. So my guess is that a significant percentage of his power comes from the "surface area" of those in his motion. Mine will always be smaller overall in at least one dimension. Athleticism and levers are part of it, but no matter what I do his move is always going to be better than mine due in part to the way his motion traverses this force space.

 

[sidewinder22]

The GG image reminds me of some overhand golf images:

 

[Brychanus]

The GG image reminds me of some overhand golf images:

I was thinking about how the size of the move works on each side of the plant. It seems like in a way the GG or Espen move dramatically elongates the "drift" phase leading into the plant (just very vertically). The literal body mass is mostly stopped in the North direction as you land in the plant, but since the body is closing off more and turned back more away than a golf swing, that (plus rest of posture) is part of why the "buttwipe" helps transmit force regardless of its size. The axes of "real" rotation kind of move around to different places in that case. It's totally not surprising to me that the "real" axis of rotation for each reference frame is somewhere kind of weird in the body since its biology and not sticks and circles.

 

[sidewinder22]

Esken

Espen.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm editing that right now my friend lol

 

[Brychanus]

I was thinking more about why wing up/supinating backswing always works better for me as I "levitate" into the backswing recently.

I think I used to get slightly "body confused" looking at stillframes like this:

GG is significantly pronated/disc dangling in the pump, then still actually supinates a decent amount in the backswing as his arm coils him back dramatically with the rotating disc. Then after exiting it goes significant pronate-supinate-thumb/hammer/drop/dampened pendulum into the release. So it appears wingdown at the peak of the backswing, but it's actually after a massive coiling move kind of countering the movement of his whole upper body. Nasty.

When I just tried to "maintain" wing down I don't think I was ever really getting any torque building up on the rear side/backswing so the coil was always weaker and I was missing something in the "heave/leave back." Allowing levitate+supinate seems to help "connect" the rear side for me for now anyway.




Since I'm not going to obtain a GG-sized washing machine move, Brinster's move came to mind. Here the disc is on a mega harsh hyzer angle like where my new "GG lite" one started out, but it also comes in much closer to/through his center like mine than GG. I will never be that nimble but the compact motion is maybe a little more similar to how mine might work out of the pendulum. Thought of Henna too but she's much ganglier and longer than me.

 

[Brychanus]

Dunno if this is a "good" think but if I understand how the chain is "supposed" to load maybe.

We've seen me have a ton of trouble get balanced fully "on top" of the legs, especially when my feet are moving.

Even though I didn't feel like I was putting much "effort" into the throws yesterday and it felt very "momentous" like a dingle arm, something interesting today.

It has been a long time since I did deadlifts or their more dynamic variants, but that's what I feel like I did yesterday lmao.

Knee seems fine/within its usual range of slightly achy.

"Take it slow and steady, soon to be middle-aged man."



Rising into the release thoughts:
I'm going to wait until I get used to the new release point first, but W/ rear leg shorter than the other and weaker leverage, I think it would make sense to both of us that if my body is centered, I'll tend have either more "up/rise" in the plant as I swing and/or more lean away in the backswing.

Otherwise, I could plant slightly more bent knee, or I could get higher on the rear foot in Espen hop, or have less toe lead, or leg more out in front in the plant.

Anyway, probably better let the course help calibrate my shots for a bit before I get a consistent whip, though. It's somewhere way out more in "front" of me now.

Future reference:
Plucking what was probably the "best" form was from the last series. I'd love to have GG's range of motion but probably can't. So this one had me more closed throughout the swing and committing it more horizontal than the others out of the backswing. I was trying to search around this space for the best whip while teeing off yesterday.

 

[Brychanus]

Greetings from motion experiments while holding my morning coffee:

I was noticing and trying to figure out why I always seem to get more leverage off my rear leg when I start tall and more foot inline and quite little stagger:



And I think the rear leg pathology accounts for some of it. There's some fuzzy physics in here but here I go:

Hard to describe, but if I compare my Hershyzer off of each leg, the right leg lets me stack up comfortably on it and I can stride off in any direction I want very fluently. Conversely, I can plant on it hard and follow thru to do work with it.

The left leg has something weird going on that was initially subtle but now I can't not notice the difference in movement. It's like any time I start to load it in most directions, it subtly wants to start swiveling dynamically out of leverage and there is more lateral stress and compensation at the knee. I just used to think it was a balance and weakness problem, but I no longer think that is all it is. It's very weird now that I can perceive it and now I can feel it in every move including when I walk. It's just a fundamentally slightly busted Figure 8 on that side.

When I stand taller and only focus on the "drift" part of the move off the left leg it's still not as stable as the right leg and doesn't feel exactly like it, but it kind of "neutralizes" some of the instability. I think the Espen hop is consistent with that idea by "taking the left leg out of the equation" as much as possible.

The slightly out-in transition stride ensures that my momentum can keep going forward and get some kind of rear side coil, whereas an out-in-out stagger stride tends to fall apart quickly because I can't fully balance the rear side. The levitating/supinating backswing more like GG helps the process because it is helping keep everything coiling and building whatever torque is available. The levitation is critical because it helps me drift forward freely without relying on the rear leg leverage to be more stable than it is/can be.

I suspect trying to find a dynamically fully balanced move with all the "ideal" action is going to be (as it may be always has been but I guess I now "understand" better) potentially off the table.

However, focusing on quickness and maximizing the drift with whatever balance I can briefly get seems doable. Relying on internal torque "tricks" like GGs seems useful

Anyway, just to affirm you probably have me on the right track, and I can hopefully leave some of the hitting heads against walls in the rearview mirror.

 

[Brychanus]

@sidewinder22

Hey my man, I am not sure if you will like this idea but let's see. I was thinking about a way to further help us help my rear leg.

What if I allow a small 1st step that gives me a little momentum rather than just relying on my rear leg in the first move? Then by the time I am x-hopping I am more like Espen but reduce the instability of the unreliable rear leg by getting over it more quickly with more forward momentum. This rhythm feels a little more like a crow hop (or Isaac Robinson) and my balance would need to adjust to clean up the rear side. But I could maintain more momentum and aggressive shoulder lean when I landed more like Gurthie or Gibson. The rear leg tends to have less opportunity to collapse. Also felt like I wasn't having as many little momentum/power leaks overall.

Is this an acceptable idea to you to work from?





Edit: Round report: FWIW at similar momentum/effort, the recent changes in x-step + arm pattern is getting me ~5% more "free" power. The new small initial step + Espen + backswing "levitation" is definitely helping me get over and off the rear side quicker already. My left leg is less likely to destabilize or collapse in the X-step because it is just mostly helping carry momentum forward.

Edit2: next day, seems like this move took more pressure off my knees/hip sockets again and put it back more squarely in my glutes. In practice moves I think I could "sharpen" the backswing peak further and work on shifting closed.

@Kjimsern you were curious about pendulum pumps. My "new" move here works kind of like Gibson's if he used a "crow hop" or Isaac Robinson rhythm. I was throwing equally well with and without the pendulum. I will probably still generally tend to use the pendulum whenever I want more power/momentum to help my legs, especially since I have so much trouble in my "drive" leg.