Form critique request

[Brychanus]

Geez, I'd kill (well, not that far) to be as on my toes as you. Athlete.

Throw: I like where it's trending, but still a bit of similar trouble on the rear side. I think more time with Load the Bow and Door frame is still justified. The rear side of Double Dragon will probably be important for you too. My point is that (a) your coil is still not quite where you want it and you're leaving some on the table (b) not fully recruiting your core and (c) trailing some weight when you shift off the rear side & (d) missing a bit of body tilt (source of efficient power) when you plant. That's fine and you'll be able to learn it- usually takes a few weeks to learn & solidify. I'd probably show your Door frame from both angles at this point to get posture input on each end of the move from reachback to release. Faster than messing around with a bunch of stuff IMO. Did more for me in 2-3 weeks than messing with more peripheral stuff.

Hailey: yeah, she's a good example of "posture control theory" as I am trying to describe. Most of her throw is keeping intact what she tends to do when teeing off at lower angles. Actually not a bad form example for you to be watching overall IMHO. It helped me to have a few pros I can visualize in my head on the fly as examples when making adjustments.

Will give you another example from KJUSA. Notice that he's bringing his backswing "low" for his Grenade relative to a full power distance drive, but overall his posture is adjusted relative to the reachback. I practiced with even lower backswings with that and even higher lines at one point and it taught my body a lot about leverage and efficient power to the point that I like attacking uphill holes sometimes. My point is just that you just always want your body committing the same(ish) chain if you want to power at different heights. Some pros appear to be a little more "arm adjusting" and some will be a little more "whole posture" adjusting or somewhere in between. Find whatever naturally gets you efficient power, IMO.

Grenade:


Full power(ish) drive - sorry the camera angle sucks, just sharing b/c of reachback/posture comparison.


BTW keep that at least that pump. It looks good for your rhythm overall. Might want to tinker with others if DFD/Double Dragon/Load the bow aren't getting you there on their own, but let's see.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

coiling properly on the rear side

Can you clarify this? What is "coiling on the rear side" and how is it distinct from other parts of coiling?

Is it "coiling into the rear hip"?

 

[Brychanus]

Can you clarify this? What is "coiling on the rear side" and how is it distinct from other parts of coiling?

Is it "coiling into the rear hip"?

Kind of synonymous, but I've always found that the quality of the rear side coil at the rear hip is directly related to how you side bend thru the core to recruit the oblique slings + balance on the rear leg. So I tend to think about and treat it as one overall concept now (some people differ a bit in how they approach this).

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Kind of synonymous, but I've always found that the quality of the rear side coil at the rear hip is directly related to how you side bend thru the core to recruit the oblique slings + balance on the rear leg. So I tend to think about and treat it as one overall concept now (some people differ a bit in how they approach this).

Ah, ok, so you'd divide it up as side-bend / coiling into rear hip as one aspect and then torso / shoulder coil as the other aspect of coiling?

And which 2 camera angles of loading the bow drill are best?

 

[Brychanus]

Ah, ok, so you'd divide it up as side-bend / coiling into rear hip as one aspect and then torso / shoulder coil as the other aspect of coiling?

And which 2 camera angles of loading the bow drill are best?

That's a good Q -

Again I kind of encode all of these into one unit in my own head, but it is important to mind the parts too. The side bend and counter-rotation of the upper body back (reachback/backswing through upper body) need to work together as a unit with the rear hip coiling/walking/cocking back. The shoulder line and action is at the top of your torso, which in a camera depends on degree of sidebend and stance and hip depth in the posture (and a couple other things, but those are the main postural ones coming to mind). Even when you "get it" at first, you can probably make it "better" almost indefinitely. People have various balance problems that make this hard to access in the first place much less optimize, which is one of the reasons Sidewinder spends so much time on standstills and trying to teach people leverage in balance (and now almost everyone I have seen skip that phase shouldn't have if they wanted to optimize their coil).

LMK if that made sense since I just threw a ton of jargon at you lmao

 

[disc-golf-neil]

That's a good Q -

Again I kind of encode all of these into one unit in my own head, but it is important to mind the parts too. The side bend and counter-rotation of the upper body back (reachback/backswing through upper body) need to work together as a unit with the rear hip coiling/walking/cocking back. The shoulder line and action is at the top of your torso, which in a camera depends on degree of sidebend and stance and hip depth in the posture (and a couple other things, but those are the main postural ones coming to mind). Even when you "get it" at first, you can probably make it "better" almost indefinitely. People have various balance problems that make this hard to access in the first place much less optimize, which is one of the reasons Sidewinder spends so much time on standstills and trying to teach people leverage in balance (and now almost everyone I have seen skip that phase shouldn't have if they wanted to optimize their coil).

LMK if that made sense since I just threw a ton of jargon at you lmao

Yeah, make sense, just wanted to make sure I had a decent idea of the focus on "rear side coiling" compared to the rest of the whole.

Also, what about the camera angle question for loading the bow drill?

Also also, what are your thoughts on Ezra R's extra wide reach back? Also his off arm elbow is kinda high like mine. Why is advice to me when my reachback is exaggerated wide to make it more straight back instead of "since he's already favoring wide, here's a correction to make the wider style work like it does for Ezra R"?

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah, make sense, just wanted to make sure I had a decent idea of the focus on "rear side coiling" compared to the rest of the whole.

Also, what about the camera angle question for loading the bow drill?

Also also, what are your thoughts on Ezra R's extra wide reach back? Why is advice to me when my reachback is a bit wide to make it more inline / narrow instead of "since he's already favoring wide, here's a correction to make the wider style work like it does for Ezra R"? Mostly seen high 400s on footage I think, but have read comments from people saying they've seen him at the course he's local to get into the high 500's.

Sounds good!

Treat any drill vids like form vids: directly behind/away from the intended trajectory and at right hand angle/side of tee face on.

Do you have an example of Ezra R's power drive (~500')?

My answer to your q there is because it will help you maximize force/momentum/gravity in the direction immediately toward the target/trajectory while learning to coil, whereas there is a risk in the "wide" reachback styles to screw up the coil in the left-right axis. That's basically what Will Schusterick did to his form when he came back from his shoulder injury and created all kinds of posture and sequence issues relative to most other peak throwers. So I'm not an absolutist myself, just wanted to mention a risk factor in starting very wide and working from there.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Sounds good!

Treat any drill vids like form vids: directly behind/away from the intended trajectory and at right hand angle/side of tee face on.

Do you have an example of Ezra R's power drive (~500')?

My answer to your q there is because it will help you maximize force/momentum/gravity in the direction immediately toward the target/trajectory while learning to coil, whereas there is a risk in the "wide" reachback styles to screw up the coil in the left-right axis. That's basically what Will Schusterick did to his form when he came back from his shoulder injury and created all kinds of posture and sequence issues relative to most other peak throwers. So I'm not an absolutist myself, just wanted to mention a risk factor in starting very wide and working from there.

I'll try to look up an Ezra power drive example. Might be one in Austin open 2024 hole 11 vid that just dropped or in one of the upcoming rounds. If not, I think in the ace run pro 2024 he had a few on a long hole.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Do you have an example of Ezra R's power drive (~500')?

At 5:44 and his next throw are mid 400s here (maybe:


This one at 18:40 is around 500. He is throwing before someone who they said got ~300 feet off the tee which leaves 611 feet left and Ezra was somewhere in or just outside C2 it seems.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus @sidewinder22

Do you have any questions you'd want to hear Albert Tamm answer? I'm likely getting a lesson from him today at the Austin Open after ~5pm CST and I'm compiling a list of my questions right now so I could add some others and try to get them in there.

 

[Brychanus]

@Brychanus @sidewinder22

Do you have any questions you'd want to hear Albert Tamm answer? I'm likely getting a lesson from him today at the Austin Open after ~5pm CST and I'm compiling a list of my questions right now so I could add some others and try to get them in there.

Have replies to your last posts when I can make get back to computer to make a figure, but this awesome! Here were the first that came to mind in no particular order.

Please relay anything you can

1. What were the biggest influences on your form (either people or technique)?
2. What was one piece of form advice or technique you tried that didn't work for you?
3. I noticed some players seem to use wider reachback on power shots than you - did you ever get it/how'd it go?
4. How much effort would you say you're putting in on drives during the average Pro Tour round?
5. Are you swinging or pulling the disc, or neither or both?
6. What is a common misunderstanding about disc golf form?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Have replies to your last posts when I can make a figure, but this awesome! Here were the first that came to mind in no particular order.

Please relay anything you can

1. What were the greatest influences on your form (either people or technique)?
2. What was one piece of form advice or technique you tried that didn't work for you?
3. I noticed some players seem to use wider reachback on power shots than you - did you ever get it/how'd it go?
4. How much effort would you say you're putting in on drives during the average Pro Tour round?
5. Are you swinging or pulling the disc, or neither or both?
6. What is a common misunderstanding about disc golf form?

#3 "get it"? As in, did it work for him? This might already be covered in my question to get his general thoughts on: Straight vs wide vs extra wide reach back (like Ezra R)

#4 might be more clear if you ask about a distance maybe to make it clear what you mean by "average round", or do you mean effort exerted throughout a full round? If it's about a single drive maybe it's already kinda clear, e.g., if 700 is max then 400 is 57% of that, but maybe it's not totally linear and gets increasingly easier so 400 might be more like 45% effort.

#5 will probably be answered by this question I'm going to ask: Which do you think / feel more of: out-in-out, out-in-across-out, straight line pull. And this question: When throwing 70% power vs 90% power, where in your form do you feel the biggest increase in effort / where does the extra power come from, is it more powerful rotation mostly?

If you think they aren't overlapping with my questions or you want to reword them so they are less overlapping let me know otherwise I might leave the seemingly overlapping ones out depending on time.

 

[Brychanus]

#3 "get it"? As in, did it work for him? This might already be covered in my question to get his general thoughts on: Straight vs wide vs extra wide reach back (like Ezra R)

#4 might be more clear if you ask about a distance maybe to make it clear what you mean by "average round", or do you mean effort exerted throughout a full round? If it's about a single drive maybe it's already kinda clear, e.g., if 700 is max then 400 is 57% of that, but maybe it's not totally linear and gets increasingly easier so 400 might be more like 45% effort.

#5 will probably be answered by this question I'm going to ask: Which do you think / feel more of: out-in-out, out-in-across-out, straight line pull. And this question: When throwing 70% power vs 90% power, where in your form do you feel the biggest increase in effort / where does the extra power come from, is it more powerful rotation mostly?

If you think they aren't overlapping with my questions or you want to reword them so they are less overlapping let me know otherwise I might leave the seemingly overlapping ones out depending on time.

Sounds good, here are a couple specific thoughts I was having if they end up relevant:

#3: yeah, figured you were going to ask & here I am interested if he himself ever tried it, or more just developed "leaving the disc behind him" (load the bow style) and stuck with it.

#4: Right. I'm basically trying to ask "does your form feel as effortless as it looks" under normal round conditions, so anywhere in that 60-85% distance range or so.

#5: Likely mine would be answered, just wanted to add - here I'm also trying to ask if he is using either "pull" or "swing" thoughts, which may or may not be directly related to those mechanics. So I think either way you're getting at it there. I like the effort question here. I'm also personally curious in how hard he things his legs are working and if he puts in resistance/dynamic work on them outside of disc golf (given that they also look pretty developed relative to his overall size).

 

[Brychanus]

At 5:44 and his next throw are mid 400s here (maybe:


This one at 18:40 is around 500. He is throwing before someone who they said got ~300 feet off the tee which leaves 611 feet left and Ezra was somewhere in or just outside C2 it seems.

Interesting & thanks for sharing, this was also a way for me to test if I really know what the hell I'm talking about. Let me try to show you with with one simple visual cue.

I hadn't seen an angle quite this good on Ezra R. Even though Ezra is ~1040 rated now, I would point out that his weight shift is still fundamentally leaving a little on the table. Cue: notice how his rear leg ends up looping up and then around his axis of rotation rather than counterbalancing behind him more like Wiggins.* I watched a few throws of Ezra's and it's not just a fluke. Theoretically that means he's leaving some of his mass trailing the move (bad) whereas Wiggins is getting everything he has including his mass & weight leading the throw into the move (good).

You have a similar thing going on, but Ezra's balance is more advanced/more Pratt-like than yours so when he lands he's getting more into the disc. Ezra would probably be getting a bit more out of the move if his side bend was slightly more pronounced and he maintained better leverage into the rear leg in the backswing to complete the fundamental "Figure 8" action the longest throwers use (which is fundamentally the same as walking, just everyone has trouble with it moving sideways-ish).

I'm not oblivious to the fact that Wiggins has not often been regularly touring and is closer to a 1000-1020 rated player overall, so I'm mostly just talking about one model for an idealized form of consistent high-power mechanics. Watch the rear leg on Eagle, Tamm, Simon etc. - they too will shift and counterbalance like Wiggins despite differences in the details. I chose different angles and trajectories on each of Wiggins, Tamm, and Eagle on purpose to help you see that it's not just endemic to one intended type of shot. In a "Platonic ideal" sense Wiggins might have one of if not the best weight shift we've ever seen - he's very athletic but he's not as lever-advantaged as the other two, so his 85mph remains even more impressive (to me, anyway).

Also, I am not a physician but I also worry that the forms that leave weight trailing/looping/crashing behind a bit like Ezra's mean that there is more jerk stress on their kinetic chain somewhere upstream. I always worry about the long-term implications of that.

TAKEAWAY: IMHO still need to consider your shift & coil mechanics and not let a wide reachback get in the way of your overall development. Also notice Wiggins' reachback is closer to directly away from the trajectory like we talked about but even more "behind" him than most people (which is part of why Sidewinder likes to say "backswing doesn't matter much" as long as your back swing is "inside" your posture & sequence are good). Notice that Eagle and Tamm both take the reachback back directly away-ish from the line on power shots or even more "inside" their posture like Wiggins. This might also help you think about your questions a few posts ago about where the trajectory goes - think relative to overall posture.

When you shrink it down to upshots you have more out-in-out options that are "scaled down" versions of the coil, but if you misunderstand the weight shift you will leave something on the table in your power shots.

Load the bow.

LMK if you still don't see it or disagree.

This is easier to learn in standstills first. Watch the rear leg.

*Cole Redalen has this "problem" too at current 1038 rating. Is it a problem in that case? Dunno, I just have learned & think a lot about shift mechanics.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Interesting & thanks for sharing, this was also a way for me to test if I really know what the hell I'm talking about. Let me try to show you with with one simple visual cue.

I hadn't seen an angle quite this good on Ezra R. Even though Ezra is ~1040 rated now, I would point out that his weight shift is still fundamentally leaving a little on the table. Cue: notice how his rear leg ends up looping up and then around his axis of rotation rather than counterbalancing behind him more like Wiggins.* I watched a few throws of Ezra's and it's not just a fluke. Theoretically that means he's leaving some of his mass trailing the move (bad) whereas Wiggins is getting everything he has including his mass & weight leading the throw into the move (good).

You have a similar thing going on, but Ezra's balance is more advanced/more Pratt-like than yours so when he lands he's getting more into the disc. Ezra would probably be getting a bit more out of the move if his side bend was slightly more pronounced and he maintained better leverage into the rear leg in the backswing to complete the fundamental "Figure 8" action the longest throwers use (which is fundamentally the same as walking, just everyone has trouble with it moving sideways-ish).

I'm not oblivious to the fact that Wiggins has not often been regularly touring and is closer to a 1000-1020 rated player overall, so I'm mostly just talking about one model for an idealized form of consistent high-power mechanics. Watch the rear leg on Eagle, Tamm, Simon etc. - they too will shift and counterbalance like Wiggins despite differences in the details. I chose different angles and trajectories on each of Wiggins, Tamm, and Eagle on purpose to help you see that it's not just endemic to one intended type of shot. In a "Platonic ideal" sense Wiggins might have one of if not the best weight shift we've ever seen - he's very athletic but he's not as lever-advantaged as the other two, so his 85mph remains even more impressive (to me, anyway).

Also, I am not a physician but I also worry that the forms that leave weight trailing/looping/crashing behind a bit like Ezra's mean that there is more jerk stress on their kinetic chain somewhere upstream. I always worry about the long-term implications of that.

TAKEAWAY: IMHO still need to consider your shift & coil mechanics and not let a wide reachback get in the way of your overall development. Also notice Wiggins' reachback is closer to directly away from the trajectory like we talked about but even more "behind" him than most people (which is part of why Sidewinder likes to say "backswing doesn't matter much" as long as your back swing is "inside" your posture & sequence are good). Notice that Eagle and Tamm both take the reachback back directly away-ish from the line on power shots or even more "inside" their posture like Wiggins. This might also help you think about your questions a few posts ago about where the trajectory goes - think relative to overall posture.

When you shrink it down to upshots you have more out-in-out options that are "scaled down" versions of the coil, but if you misunderstand the weight shift you will leave something on the table in your power shots.

Load the bow.

LMK if you still don't see it or disagree.

This is easier to learn in standstills first. Watch the rear leg.

*Cole Redalen has this "problem" too at current 1038 rating. Is it a problem in that case? Dunno, I just have learned & think a lot about shift mechanics.

so the back leg can swing around (like eagle) as long as it goes behind first so that more of the energy goes into the disc and then the leg swings around more softly as part of the follow through?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus can you tell the general launch angle that is going to be thrown here just from the form clues and ignoring any other details other than he is on a flat tee pad? Such as a lowish launch angle hyzer flip or a spike hyzer?

 

[Brychanus]

so the back leg can swing around (like eagle) as long as it goes behind first so that more of the energy goes into the disc and then the leg swings around more softly as part of the follow through?

Yes, simple cue: you want the trailing knee to collect forward into the shift.

 

[Brychanus]

@Brychanus can you tell the general launch angle that is going to be thrown here just from the form clues and ignoring any other details other than he is on a flat tee pad? Such as a lowish launch angle hyzer flip or a spike hyzer?



View attachment 335466

Me personally? Not always from still frames yet. I watch a lot more Eagle than AB. If I had to guess that one is probably closer to a low hyzer or hyzerflip than pure and high spike hyzer. If you have source vid I'll be curious to see.

 

[Brychanus]

Here's one of my favorite angles on Eagle to illustrate the weight shift/rear leg counter & finish. Here he's throwing a lowish line forward-penetrating hyzerflip.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Me personally? Not always from still frames yet. I watch a lot more Eagle than AB. If I had to guess that one is probably closer to a low hyzer or hyzerflip than pure and high spike hyzer. If you have source vid I'll be curious to see.

This is why I'm so hung up on this issue. I can't believe it's so hard to see at this stage a MASSIVE difference in launch angle that is a fraction of a second away from happening.

He's throwing a nearly vertical spike hyzer, like >=70 degree launch angle it seems.



Maybe it's camera angle challenges or differing preferences in how people change their launch angle that's making it so confusing. I started doubting my normal conception of lower shoulder flexion = higher launch angle (if maintained) after seeing those other examples that seemed like ~90 deg shoulder flexion while still throwing high so initially I missed this, but it does seem he is lowering the arm. But this looks more like my normal angle from the back when I throw normal hyzer flips in tunnels so idk how I'm avoiding throwing it high, lol. Anyways, I'm planning to practice resetting my muscle memory to 90 degree flexion as my default ~5 deg launch angle then lower it for higher launch angles going forward.



More confusing is how some people have low reach backs even when throwing low launch angles like Clayton Montgomery, this makes me think people who do this are going off plane by increasing shoulder flexion from reachback to power pocket and staying "on plane" is not always the ideal. It's best to learn how to do it and to fix issues from going off plane in a bad way, but for example if you want to really throw nose down the easier way might be to do what Jake H does, low reach back and then crank downwards off plane to bring the nose down. I gotta test it more but that nose-down style is bigger muscles / larger lever style that's probably easier to time and control compared to a small wrist supination flip for example.