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Form critique request

@Brychanus working on off leg counterbalance while warming up for pickleball lol
Love it. See if you can balance on that rear leg in transition more like seabas22 Hershyzer drill or the rear side of Ride the Bull or double dragon. It's part of coil we've been talking about. Right now you are slightly off balance on transition and pitching your body a little too West in transition, which is why you get a little bit caught behind your brace. Watching it again, might suggest double dragon kicking directly back away from target specifically to exaggerate it. This will look subtle to you but feel completely different.
 
Love it. See if you can balance on that rear leg in transition more like seabas22 Hershyzer drill or the rear side of Ride the Bull or double dragon. It's part of coil we've been talking about. Right now you are slightly off balance on transition and pitching your body a little too West in transition, which is why you get a little bit caught behind your brace. Watching it again, might suggest double dragon kicking directly back away from target specifically to exaggerate it. This will look subtle to you but feel completely different.
I see what you mean, I think this is happened when it was previously pointed out. I was leaning back too much so I started trying to shift my weight more forward earlier.

What do you mean by 'caught behind brace'?
 
I see what you mean, I think this is happened when it was previously pointed out. I was leaning back too much so I started trying to shift my weight more forward earlier.

What do you mean by 'caught behind brace'?
It's also about the coil into the rear side and the trajectory out-in-out we talked about earlier. Watch the golfers moving into the backswing in wireframes here. Pay attention to the rear hip, spine tilt and curve, and balance like that "curve" with sidebend we talked about in Wiggins etc. earlier:


Double dragon dramatically emphasizes the rear side coil and load. When you transition out of the backswing you should ideally feel more like you are "riding down a ramp" into the plant. Even if you end up moving as horizontal as you do there, it's a fundamental part of the move. In DD, the rear kick directly back in away from the target while allowing your weight to shift forward is IMO the best drill ever made to exaggerate this. This part of the move is missed in almost all other instructional content out there. One you feel/really understand what DD does, you know why I tend to think of the rear side coil as one "unit" of motion- it all has to work together well enough to work correctly at all, and it's deficient in I think 100% of players who initially start out even if they move well and athletically otherwise. This will also help you get the intution behind "heaving the disc back" directly away form the target in the coil. Again, I'm not saying you can't do otherwise, just pointing out an efficiency that you haven't accessed yet. Man, that Sidewinder guy did his homework, huh?

Basically you should feel like the red ball coming out of the backswing. Right now your move is closer to the blue slope at the top or a little more shallow than that - you accelerate but the move is a little too "flat". There's more "Free" acceleration available you can discover by "riding down the halfpipe"!
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"Caught behind the brace": any time your move traps the rear side of the body from clearing through freely, which leads either to jamming or something from the rear side crashing into the front side. Right now since you were a little off balance/not DD-ing off the rear side, you get your rear leg briefly bunched up behind your brace rather than counterbalancing in (yours already looks better) and then clearing smoothly from out behind you. You get trapped for a bit. DD will probably help if you do it correctly.
 
Watched a couple of your training vids, you and Jake are missing the back half of the figure 8 going into the backswing and a lot of APT and spine extension. You are moving more left/westward in backswing while I'm moving deeper right/eastward in backswing.

Instead of trying to keep the elbow up, think about lowering the shoulder and swinging it more like a Battering Ram or Reciprocating Dingle Arm.

 
Watched a couple of your training vids, you and Jake are missing the back half of the figure 8 going into the backswing and a lot of APT and spine extension. You are moving more left/westward in backswing while I'm moving deeper right/eastward in backswing.

Instead of trying to keep the elbow up, think about lowering the shoulder and swinging it more like a Battering Ram or Reciprocating Dingle Arm.

What's APT stand for?

What body movement are you suggesting to "lower the shoulder"?

I'll try the Simon style of swinging the right foot to the right first to help correct the balance being too left. I was normally thinking about getting my right foot over into it's own lane before the X step to make more space for the X step and then have a simpler path for the brace to just go straight forward, but creating that space between the feet while also trying to stay on the toes during the X is all adding up to that issue of the weight being too far over the toes so the Simon style definitely makes sense to help with that.

I don't think this issue is as prominent in my runup compared to walkup because of the extra forward momentum and X hop naturally creating better balance forward instead of leftward, but when I go slow I think some things become exaggerated and then there's more time for the offset weight to pull me to the left.

I see how this tracks with @Brychanus double dragon recommendation as well.
 
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What's APT stand for?

What body movement are you suggesting to "lower the shoulder"?

I'll try the Simon style of swinging the right foot to the right first to help correct the balance being too left. I was normally thinking about getting my right foot over into it's own lane before the X step to make more space for the X step and then have a simpler path for the brace to just go straight forward, but creating that space between the feet while also trying to stay on the toes during the X is all adding up to that issue of the weight being too far over the toes so the Simon style definitely makes sense to help with that.

I don't think this issue is as prominent in my runup compared to walkup because of the extra forward momentum and X hop naturally creating better balance forward instead of leftward, but when I go slow I think some things become exaggerated and then there's more time for the offset weight to pull me to the left.

I see how this tracks with @Brychanus double dragon recommendation as well.
Momentum can help mask fundamental issues, it's not really making it better. "If you can do it in slow motion, then you are in balance." - Mike Maves

 
Instead of trying to keep the elbow up, think about lowering the shoulder and swinging it more like a Battering Ram or Reciprocating Dingle Arm.

So scapular depression from relaxing and letting the shoulders hang like you say to do in dingle arm? And then what, let levitation and rotational force bring the elbow up as you swing?
 
Finally got some tailwind out here in Austin Texas. Not sure if you guys know but it's usually headwind in both directions here.

I wasn't thinking about form corrections we've discussed that I normally work on since I just wanted to rip some brand new discs as far as I could. I tried an extra 2 steps though which felt super awkward for timing since I don't normally do it, but timing muscle memory worked out I guess.

 
Simon looks extremely closed in his brace but I think part of that is because he is throwing a bit left of where the tee is facing?
Just to give you too much more to think about, you might chew on this part of my discussion of Simon's form here. Viewing from top down helps you see where the principal directions of motion and force are headed independent from the details of each part of the move. Simon's move is very complex off the rear leg so I found it very hard to understand at first.

btw, not sure if I want to refer to it as "torque force" as the coupling force between feet because as Chris Taylor has pointed out you lose that component moving foot to foot (and it might work differently in different forms, but I am still studying it). When I say torque I mean the more general torque force of the entire move (imagine using a screwdriver). In any case, Simon is using east-west motions, but pay attention to the image where the main directions of motion and the disc go!


Here too. Think about how the body's center of gravity shifting interacts with the final trajectory when the force needs to get through the arm to the disc.

 
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Just to give you too much more to think about, you might chew on this part of my discussion of Simon's form here. Viewing from top down helps you see where the principal directions of motion and force are headed independent from the details of each part of the move. Simon's move is very complex off the rear leg so I found it very hard to understand at first.

btw, not sure if I want to refer to it as "torque force" as the coupling force between feet because as Chris Taylor has pointed out you lose that component moving foot to foot (and it might work differently in different forms, but I am still studying it). When I say torque I mean the more general torque force of the entire move (imagine using a screwdriver). In any case, Simon is using east-west motions, but pay attention to the image where the main directions of motion and the disc go!


Here too. Think about how the body's center of gravity shifting interacts with the final trajectory when the force needs to get through the arm to the disc.

Cool, I've perused that thread before but it helps to come back to it with something more specific in mind.

Something I didn't see mentioned directly that I had wondered. Thinking about the direction the hips rotate, it seems like a linear plant sweep is going to jam the hip into the socket more and therefore the hip will give and rotate to redirect the force, however, more of a crescent plant sweep might add some plant west to east plant force which is more in the direction the hip rotates which seems like a more direct way for the plant to aid in hip rotation and possible less taxing. But the more momentum you have, I think, the more the linear force will become primary even with a crescent plant sweep.

All the common drive videos I look at are high momentum smashes, my issue of being too unbalanced in the direction of over the toes in my X makes me wonder how do people with a linear plant sweep stay balanced over the X step while still having the plant foot staggered out in front, whereas the crescent plant sweep gives you that balance by first curving so you aren't slowly falling over the toes. However, my issue might also be that I like to have some of the hyzer lean that I want to plant with already in my runup, which weighs me over my toes more during the X.
 
Cool, I've perused that thread before but it helps to come back to it with something more specific in mind.

Something I didn't see mentioned directly that I had wondered. Thinking about the direction the hips rotate, it seems like a linear plant sweep is going to jam the hip into the socket more and therefore the hip will give and rotate to redirect the force, however, more of a crescent plant sweep might add some plant west to east plant force which is more in the direction the hip rotates which seems like a more direct way for the plant to aid in hip rotation and possible less taxing. But the more momentum you have, I think, the more the linear force will become primary even with a crescent plant sweep.

All the common drive videos I look at are high momentum smashes, my issue of being too unbalanced in the direction of over the toes in my X makes me wonder how do people with a linear plant sweep stay balanced over the X step while still having the plant foot staggered out in front, whereas the crescent plant sweep gives you that balance by first curving so you aren't slowly falling over the toes. However, my issue might also be that I like to have some of the hyzer lean that I want to plant with already in my runup, which weighs me over my toes more during the X.
Yeah I follow you! Let me see if this helps integrate some of this with the "crescent" idea and linear force you're talking about as drives power up. This is as much for my benefit in thinking about it so apologies if I'm a little verbose, but hopefully it is also inspirational :)

Think about walking forward- as your hips swivel and sway a bit, your legs are also probably doing slight crescent moves naturally. The problem for the backhand is finding the "best" one for you. It's part the strides, part balance/balance, and part the direct you commit the movement of you CoG overall down the tee.

I think it you watch the people with the more linear appearing plant sweep (not really out in out or maybe closer to out-in like PP or GG) you will still see a transition of their center of mass and gravity in the direction SW pointed out (more Eastward) above to remain athletically balanced in transition.

I'll use GG and my own move as an example because mine is developing more like his and since I think my grasp on how his move works continues to increase as I work on my form. Yours will end up more horizontal, so it will likely rely more on force of that direction but ideally your most efficient form would have a bit of what I'm talking about. At the bottom of it I think the dynamics are similar.

Since I just physically realized the connection between my Waltz box step advanced posture and transition move for the backhand, it changed my frame of reference to realize that the legs are only doing the best they can if (1) you find the right trajectory for your center of gravity in a way that (2) your feet are basically just carrying and accelerating the momentum while (3) not impeding natural actions of the legs (crescent moves that get stretched out as you add momentum).

My move is definitely going to be among the more centrifugal forms I can think of, and similar to Sidewinder's. That's kind of a detail though and IMO more about how our bodies naturally move for quickness and power. I'll try to make the more general example of what I've just learned better since I finally made the connection in my body.

Even though my strides now look pretty "linear toward the target" - and they are as I add momentum - they've still got a little bit of that natural "crescent" action you're describing, slightly out-in-out, and they're moving that way to allow my center to move (1) very targetward like a bowling ball and also (2) like a pendulum bringing in my mass high-low-high-low like waltz or GG and finally (3) making it very centrifugal and rapidly accelerating at the end as I "drop" through the drive step AND into the plant (like waltz or GG).

Seabas Hershyzer drill is generally what you want for that transition from when the x step lands forward. But your own issue is upstream to that and I think that is the case for every person unless they're already throwing like a touring pro. I recommended DD to you - if you do that right, at the peak of the backswing, you should feel your balance in the rear foot and like you will shift "behind" you. That's exactly how part of the waltz box step works, except in DG it's in athletic rather than dance posture. Also notice the similarity in the little backswing I do with a pitcher's windup getting tall and a bit coiled and with my balance moving like Double Dragon: it's setting up the most effortless move forward and "down the mound" like a pitcher but in the backhand direction. This move isn't perfect because I am still trying to get my body to remain in the aggressive balance all the way into my X-step, but contains what I'm talking about:



The other part is that you want to take the stride out of whatever your first move is forward(ish) in a way that sustains and can accelerate momentum rather than jams, blocks, or slows it in any way. That's probably going to be more like an out-in-out or out-in stride, whatever more naturally transitions your whole body mass along the most efficient trajectory. That usually takes trial and error even if you're already doing something else very well.

Also worth mentioning because I became somewhat advanced at waltz that the dance is deceiving: a beginner dancer will take maybe 4-5 times the number of box step rotations to make the same distance over the same amount time as an advanced dancer. An elite waltzer is actually moving deceptively athletically and fast but at low effort directly down the dance line while also rotating faster or slower depending on the move. Is it as explosive as a sprinter? No, but it's nevertheless a powerful move and the best I've got personally. I also know from my waltz training that I can start to make my own move quicker and more aggressively balanced for more power now that I understand it in the context of the backhand.

After I had this Waltz insight by FEELING it, I suddenly realized Simon's transition move is actually pretty similar to one I learned in the Foxtrot (I wish I could remember the pattern name) but was always very hard for me to do/find the posture for it while moving quickly. I think I've only seen people who dance very young and usually for a long time do it as well as he can. But here again we would find your same observation about the "crescent" and stretching it out longer and more linear as you add momentum.

Dickerson and Heimburg run. Eagle and Simon stride. Tartar and Gurthe Waltz. McBeth crow hops. But I think I understand what all of these have in common after mapping it to the move I was most advanced at before I started getting obsessed with form. Mine will now inevitably end up quite a bit more like the Waltz.

You just need to find yours.
 
Yeah I follow you! Let me see if this helps integrate some of this with the "crescent" idea and linear force you're talking about as drives power up. This is as much for my benefit in thinking about it so apologies if I'm a little verbose, but hopefully it is also inspirational :)

Think about walking forward- as your hips swivel and sway a bit, your legs are also probably doing slight crescent moves naturally. The problem for the backhand is finding the "best" one for you. It's part the strides, part balance/balance, and part the direct you commit the movement of you CoG overall down the tee.

I think it you watch the people with the more linear appearing plant sweep (not really out in out or maybe closer to out-in like PP or GG) you will still see a transition of their center of mass and gravity in the direction SW pointed out (more Eastward) above to remain athletically balanced in transition.

I'll use GG and my own move as an example because mine is developing more like his and since I think my grasp on how his move works continues to increase as I work on my form. Yours will end up more horizontal, so it will likely rely more on force of that direction but ideally your most efficient form would have a bit of what I'm talking about. At the bottom of it I think the dynamics are similar.

Since I just physically realized the connection between my Waltz box step advanced posture and transition move for the backhand, it changed my frame of reference to realize that the legs are only doing the best they can if (1) you find the right trajectory for your center of gravity in a way that (2) your feet are basically just carrying and accelerating the momentum while (3) not impeding natural actions of the legs (crescent moves that get stretched out as you add momentum).

My move is definitely going to be among the more centrifugal forms I can think of, and similar to Sidewinder's. That's kind of a detail though and IMO more about how our bodies naturally move for quickness and power. I'll try to make the more general example of what I've just learned better since I finally made the connection in my body.

Even though my strides now look pretty "linear toward the target" - and they are as I add momentum - they've still got a little bit of that natural "crescent" action you're describing, slightly out-in-out, and they're moving that way to allow my center to move (1) very targetward like a bowling ball and also (2) like a pendulum bringing in my mass high-low-high-low like waltz or GG and finally (3) making it very centrifugal and rapidly accelerating at the end as I "drop" through the drive step AND into the plant (like waltz or GG).

Seabas Hershyzer drill is generally what you want for that transition from when the x step lands forward. But your own issue is upstream to that and I think that is the case for every person unless they're already throwing like a touring pro. I recommended DD to you - if you do that right, at the peak of the backswing, you should feel your balance in the rear foot and like you will shift "behind" you. That's exactly how part of the waltz box step works, except in DG it's in athletic rather than dance posture. Also notice the similarity in the little backswing I do with a pitcher's windup getting tall and a bit coiled and with my balance moving like Double Dragon: it's setting up the most effortless move forward and "down the mound" like a pitcher but in the backhand direction. This move isn't perfect because I am still trying to get my body to remain in the aggressive balance all the way into my X-step, but contains what I'm talking about:



The other part is that you want to take the stride out of whatever your first move is forward(ish) in a way that sustains and can accelerate momentum rather than jams, blocks, or slows it in any way. That's probably going to be more like an out-in-out or out-in stride, whatever more naturally transitions your whole body mass along the most efficient trajectory. That usually takes trial and error even if you're already doing something else very well.

Also worth mentioning because I became somewhat advanced at waltz that the dance is deceiving: a beginner dancer will take maybe 4-5 times the number of box step rotations to make the same distance over the same amount time as an advanced dancer. An elite waltzer is actually moving deceptively athletically and fast but at low effort directly down the dance line while also rotating faster or slower depending on the move. Is it as explosive as a sprinter? No, but it's nevertheless a powerful move and the best I've got personally. I also know from my waltz training that I can start to make my own move quicker and more aggressively balanced for more power now that I understand it in the context of the backhand.

After I had this Waltz insight by FEELING it, I suddenly realized Simon's transition move is actually pretty similar to one I learned in the Foxtrot (I wish I could remember the pattern name) but was always very hard for me to do/find the posture for it while moving quickly. I think I've only seen people who dance very young and usually for a long time do it as well as he can. But here again we would find your same observation about the "crescent" and stretching it out longer and more linear as you add momentum.

Dickerson and Heimburg run. Eagle and Simon stride. Tartar and Gurthe Waltz. McBeth crow hops. But I think I understand what all of these have in common after mapping it to the move I was most advanced at before I started getting obsessed with form. Mine will now inevitably end up quite a bit more like the Waltz.

You just need to find yours.

Cool.

I'd rather not run if I don't have to because it seems harder on the body to stop that momentum. In my full speed like the vid a few posts ago I feel like I'm doing a run-stride hybrid but with a crow hop. I practiced the crow hop for the run up to help shorten my X step and not turn it backwards or lean back too much on the X, and in my walk up, I still try to keep the X step short for a lot of the same reasons, but maybe I should try a bigger X again so I can stride more smoothly and not feel like I have to run as much.
 
Crow hop would probably fit well on you.

Whichever version I think SW had it right focusing on the rear part of the Figure 8 action and direction of the move - would focus on balance & coiling back there.
 
Crow hop would probably fit well on you.

Whichever version I think SW had it right focusing on the rear part of the Figure 8 action and direction of the move - would focus on balance & coiling back there.
Anything we haven't already discussed pop out at you from this new view?

I was mostly focusing on making sure my elbow didn't drop, from the side view it's really hard to tell how far away from the body it is.

I know my off arm elbow is coming up high and my weight is too far forward over the X step toes. Making sure my elbow position is good before I focus on those.

 
Anything we haven't already discussed pop out at you from this new view?

I was mostly focusing on making sure my elbow didn't drop, from the side view it's really hard to tell how far away from the body it is.

I know my off arm elbow is coming up high and my weight is too far forward over the X step toes. Making sure my elbow position is good before I focus on those.


Looking a little better.

Yeah, rear side balance issues are still similar, though maybe a little improved (hard to land in plant ideally if not in ideal balance on the rear side). Based on how you already move overall, I think once you fry that fish you will have significant speed potential.

Not sure if you intentionally toned down your "wide" reachback to be more straight back(ish) away, but it looks like that's functioning better in the context of your overall move.

Elbow: that's starting to look like it's smoothing out and looking more organic at this point (nice!). As long as your shoulder isn't straining as you move into the pocket and then release I might not fuss with it too much more, but let us know. Reminder that its overall path will probably modify a bit if/when you decide to attack the rear side again and you will also potentially gain some ease/efficiency from gravity.
 
Looking a little better.

Yeah, rear side balance issues are still similar, though maybe a little improved (hard to land in plant ideally if not in ideal balance on the rear side). Based on how you already move overall, I think once you fry that fish you will have significant speed potential.

Not sure if you intentionally toned down your "wide" reachback to be more straight back(ish) away, but it looks like that's functioning better in the context of your overall move.

Elbow: that's starting to look like it's smoothing out and looking more organic at this point (nice!). As long as your shoulder isn't straining as you move into the pocket and then release I might not fuss with it too much more, but let us know. Reminder that its overall path will probably modify a bit if/when you decide to attack the rear side again and you will also potentially gain some ease/efficiency from gravity.
Cool, thanks.

Yeah I was also working on a less wide reachback on and off since it was last brought up and thought about it today a bit too. But I was also messing with grip, LOL. Had just done another grip alignment test before playing and had some interesting results.

Instead of thinking about keeping the elbow up, I started trying out more scapular protraction again which seems to help. If you just put your forearm across your abdomen and relax your shoulder flexion to drop the elbow, then add scapular protraction, you'll probably automatically add shoulder flexion bringing the elbow up. It also seems to add to the resistance to shoulder collapse.
 
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