Form critique request

[disc-golf-neil]

Speaking of grip alignment, I was trying to come up with a better labelling system today as I had to tag the throws to label the grip used. I was thinking about a clock and assigning certain hours to certain fingers but it didn't seem great.

A possible improvement could be to make the base of the middle finger 0 and the center of the bottom of the palm 0 because then it's easier to remember which way the numbers go: 0 is center and to the right is positive and left is negative like a number line. So 0:0 is aligned from center of middle finger to center of palm, and 1:0 is between middle and down to center of palm.

You got any other good ideas for something more intuitive, lol? I need to settle on something so I can tag my throws and consistently refer to these labels in the tech disc test vids.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

For the x step balance issue, does this make sense?

 

[Brychanus]

Cool, thanks.

Yeah I was also working on a less wide reachback on and off since it was last brought up and thought about it today a bit too. But I was also messing with grip, LOL. Had just done another grip alignment test before playing and had some interesting results.

Instead of thinking about keeping the elbow up, I started trying out more scapular protraction again which seems to help. If you just put your forearm across your abdomen and relax your shoulder flexion to drop the elbow, then add scapular protraction, you'll probably automatically add shoulder flexion bringing the elbow up. It also seems to add to the resistance to shoulder collapse.

Yes, good you discovered that. I would alsp encourage you also look at seabas22 double dragon and elephant walk to encode the motor program for the natural cycle of protraction in backswing and shifting toward retraction as you commit the throw, opposite reciprocating pattern in the other shoulder. It works like walking and also is part of training balance. Solves several problems at once.

Speaking of grip alignment, I was trying to come up with a better labelling system today as I had to tag the throws to label the grip used. I was thinking about a clock and assigning certain hours to certain fingers but it didn't seem great.

A possible improvement could be to make the base of the middle finger 0 and the center of the bottom of the palm 0 because then it's easier to remember which way the numbers go: 0 is center and to the right is positive and left is negative like a number line. So 0:0 is aligned from center of middle finger to center of palm, and 1:0 is between middle and down to center of palm.

You got any other good ideas for something more intuitive, lol? I need to settle on something so I can tag my throws and consistently refer to these labels in the tech disc test vids.

This kind of reminds me of problems in brain imaging where you have systems for anatomy, but they don't cleanly solve all referencing problems. One system that emerged for brain scan alignment was the anterior commissure to posterior commissure line. It's always identifiable in a normal brain, and then you can make coordinate systems relative to that. So you could pick a single reference line and just use degrees deviation from that line, or something less granular is probably fine. Your middle finger palm system is consistent with that reference line idea, I think.

Interestingly I'm also thinking about the average "user experience" person in coaching and the reason software developers usually work with them in large companies now - someone that is less technical might prefer something like your alphanumeric system because it is kind of easy to decode in a glance.

So probably depends a little on what your overall goal is in the end from a precision and usability end. I am leaning toward the middle finger and middle base of palm idea, thinking more about the "best" way to decode relative to that.

For the x step balance issue, does this make sense?

You have part of the leg patterns, but not the balance, leg action, and hip action really.

Notice that in most pro movement you usually don't get a ton of leg flexion or extension once the legs are interacting with the ground, because the way you balance when you walk involves natural tilt and that "FIgure 8" action you see discussed around here. You are also not interacting with gravity the way you normally would when walking. You're kind of bouncing around on that leg without ever really being balanced on it (ask my how many ways there are to do it "wrong" and I may never stop writing).

I can keep writing words or draw you a diagram, but I would go right to Double Dragon. Get everything moving forward and back toward the target in tilted axis, reciprocating your arms back and forth.* It takes everything I'm talking about, dials it up to "11", making it easier to find and feel what I'm saying overall. It is also consistent with your path of discovery about "straight back" or "wide" reachbacks and might help you understand why they function in that context. I don't think you've ever felt what I'm trying to get you to feel. I've tried every other coil drill I have ever seen on the market, and that DD drill is maybe the only one I've encountered that reliably teaches it when done well! It is literally the same drill I always use when I am working on X-step or standstills myself when I can feel my coil is drifted out of whack. I do it 2 or 3 times and recognize it immediately again, then work forward from there.

BTW, DD also helps you understand why Tamm's move looks smooth and balanced and Hebenheimer's looks more "explosive". Which do you think is more "efficient"? You may also learn why they have different grip pressures, too

*Don't get distracted whether you think the move is a swing or a pull. Drill is about all of the above and kinetic chain training in efficient harmony with gravity.

 

[RowingBoats]

Lol I respect throwing a bomb directly at the camera.

 

[Brychanus]

Wish we saw more of those, tbh

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes, good you discovered that. I would alsp encourage you also look at seabas22 double dragon and elephant walk to encode the motor program for the natural cycle of protraction in backswing and shifting toward retraction as you commit the throw, opposite reciprocating pattern in the other shoulder. It works like walking and also is part of training balance. Solves several problems at once.



This kind of reminds me of problems in brain imaging where you have systems for anatomy, but they don't cleanly solve all referencing problems. One system that emerged for brain scan alignment was the anterior commissure to posterior commissure line. It's always identifiable in a normal brain, and then you can make coordinate systems relative to that. So you could pick a single reference line and just use degrees deviation from that line, or something less granular is probably fine. Your middle finger palm system is consistent with that reference line idea, I think.

Interestingly I'm also thinking about the average "user experience" person in coaching and the reason software developers usually work with them in large companies now - someone that is less technical might prefer something like your alphanumeric system because it is kind of easy to decode in a glance.

So probably depends a little on what your overall goal is in the end from a precision and usability end. I am leaning toward the middle finger and middle base of palm idea, thinking more about the "best" way to decode relative to that.


You have part of the leg patterns, but not the balance, leg action, and hip action really.

Notice that in most pro movement you usually don't get a ton of leg flexion or extension once the legs are interacting with the ground, because the way you balance when you walk involves natural tilt and that "FIgure 8" action you see discussed around here. You are also not interacting with gravity the way you normally would when walking. You're kind of bouncing around on that leg without ever really being balanced on it (ask my how many ways there are to do it "wrong" and I may never stop writing).

I can keep writing words or draw you a diagram, but I would go right to Double Dragon. Get everything moving forward and back toward the target in tilted axis, reciprocating your arms back and forth.* It takes everything I'm talking about, dials it up to "11", making it easier to find and feel what I'm saying overall. It is also consistent with your path of discovery about "straight back" or "wide" reachbacks and might help you understand why they function in that context. I don't think you've ever felt what I'm trying to get you to feel. I've tried every other coil drill I have ever seen on the market, and that DD drill is maybe the only one I've encountered that reliably teaches it when done well! It is literally the same drill I always use when I am working on X-step or standstills myself when I can feel my coil is drifted out of whack. I do it 2 or 3 times and recognize it immediately again, then work forward from there.

BTW, DD also helps you understand why Tamm's move looks smooth and balanced and Hebenheimer's looks more "explosive". Which do you think is more "efficient"? You may also learn why they have different grip pressures, too

*Don't get distracted whether you think the move is a swing or a pull. Drill is about all of the above and kinetic chain training in efficient harmony with gravity.

Thanks. My problem isn't actually balance in that I lack it. I think I just need a timed cue I think to remind myself as I'm about to X step what I need to do to make sure I don't shift or keep my weight too over the toes. When I try DD I'm easily balanced because it's out of context and without the forward momentum that can allow you to be off balance but still glide with some control due to the momentum.

The cues that are synchronized to something in the timing seem really useful to implement faster, for example, pump the disc with the X step forward.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Lol I respect throwing a bomb directly at the camera.

Haha, I lowered it a decent bit but surprisingly still looked close. I aired a couple later on though probably due to the fear of hitting it.

I told one of the higher up DGPT staff (I think, he was walking with lead card observing) at The Open at Austin they should put some mics in front of some of the tees to pick up the sound. People love seeing the disc fly but if we could hear the rocket ship sound the pros make, it would be even more epic. He said he liked the idea, fingers crossed, lol.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Wish we saw more of those, tbh

Dang, it's amazing he gets such low wobble with so much supination torque, the disc is deforming..

 

[RowingBoats]

Haha, I lowered it a decent bit but surprisingly still looked close. I aired a couple later on though probably due to the fear of hitting it.

I told one of the higher up DGPT staff (I think, he was walking with lead card observing) at The Open at Austin they should put some mics in front of some of the tees to pick up the sound. People love seeing the disc fly but if we could hear the rocket ship sound the pros make, it would be even more epic. He said he liked the idea, fingers crossed, lol.

Nice! I'm in CO so there are no majors here.

Planning a trip to Emporia next year though, very excited to see it in person.

/jealous of all you people with nearby majors

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus and @RowingBoats since you're here atm.

You think this seems good enough for a labelling system? I keep trying to think of something more intuitive like "i" for index finger or "m" for middle but then there is the webbing that also needs to be labelled and there aren't commonly known names for the areas of the bottom of the palm. So at least this has a 0 in the middle reference point and ascending or descending from there that could be easier to remember.

 

[RowingBoats]

@Brychanus and @RowingBoats since you're here atm.

You think this seems good enough for a labelling system? I keep trying to think of something more intuitive like "i" for index finger or "m" for middle but then there is the webbing that also needs to be labelled and there aren't commonly known names for the areas of the bottom of the palm. So at least this has a 0 in the middle reference point and ascending or descending from there that could be easier to remember.

View attachment 336498

Looks like it would cover any conceivable grip I can imagine lol.

I would be...F1P-1 ish.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks. My problem isn't actually balance in that I lack it. I think I just need a timed cue I think to remind myself as I'm about to X step what I need to do to make sure I don't shift or keep my weight too over the toes. When I try DD I'm easily balanced because it's out of context and without the forward momentum that can allow you to be off balance but still glide with some control due to the momentum.

The cues that are synchronized to something in the timing seem really useful to implement faster, for example, pump the disc with the X step forward.

Right: I am not questioning your fundamental ability to balance, what I am trying to say is just that you lack the balance in transition - doing what DD does, but in the context of your X-step. It's much harder than doing DD in standstills. IMO Windmill X-step drill helps with this in X-step and is a great "bridge" drill if you already have the "feel" from DD. Allow yourself to feel slightly more out of balance at first so you can learn to feel how the backswing/reachback completes the coil. It is annoyingly sensitive to minor differences in the move. Even your grip can affect it, as I am testing now ;-)

Remember that my taste/preference/"bias" is that I tend to think a "good" X-step is using gravity as an aid rather than fighting gravity. So using these extreme windmill and pendulum actions is a good guide. Then you just flatten it out to a greater or lesser degree for your form.

I will always be an advocate for pumps, even if you use less of one later. Feel that momentum bringing you forward, Carry the momentum back into the backswing. Can you feel it assist the coil? Does it matter where the momentum goes? Feel it out.

How am I doing RB? Feely-oriented enough in writing?

@Brychanus and @RowingBoats since you're here atm.

You think this seems good enough for a labelling system? I keep trying to think of something more intuitive like "i" for index finger or "m" for middle but then there is the webbing that also needs to be labelled and there aren't commonly known names for the areas of the bottom of the palm. So at least this has a 0 in the middle reference point and ascending or descending from there that could be easier to remember.

View attachment 336498

Agree that covers most things we'd probably see in principle. I can imagine something outside of it but it probably becomes more comical than useful at that point lol

There my Putter, Mid, Fairways would be F1 F-2 ish. I think the reason they're similar has to do with how my index finger can wrap in with the narrower rims. In all of those grips, I'm clearly supinating, but my thumb is getting a significant pressure against the disc late in the move: moves like "pushing a quarter on a tabletop"/"Hammering out"/"basketball push pass"/"backstroke" all have things in common with my arm action. I think what makes this hard to talk about in writing is the dynamic interaction between the fingers and thumb and disc late in the move, which is a huge difference in whether more forearm is actually contributing to the power athletically vs. just flopping and rolling over inertly.

I just tested my Distance drivers again and I'm definitely closer to F2, still testing the palm but somewhere in the vicinity of P-1 to P-2 ish to get the "hammer" effect and nose angle and clean pivot off short index finger. My hand and wrist kind of figure out the rest now from all the hammer drills. I already throw my drivers more consistently better, so thank you for our exchanges

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Looks like it would cover any conceivable grip I can imagine lol.

I would be...F1P-1 ish.

That's interesting, Going positive on the "P" side I thought would be rare. When I do that and grip hard it really feels like someone is showing me a pressure point they found on that thumb muscle meat, so I figured that would naturally result in people gravitating away from it, but maybe yours doesn't feel that way.

 

[RowingBoats]

That's interesting, Going positive on the "P" side I thought would be rare. When I do that and grip hard it really feels like someone is showing me a pressure point they found on that thumb muscle meat, so I figured that would naturally result in people gravitating away from it, but maybe yours doesn't feel that way.

-1 for the P side, and maybe halfway to -2.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Right: I am not questioning your fundamental ability to balance, what I am trying to say is just that you lack the balance in transition - doing what DD does, but in the context of your X-step. It's much harder than doing DD in standstills. IMO Windmill X-step drill helps with this in X-step and is a great "bridge" drill if you already have the "feel" from DD. Allow yourself to feel slightly more out of balance at first so you can learn to feel how the backswing/reachback completes the coil. It is annoyingly sensitive to minor differences in the move. Even your grip can affect it, as I am testing now ;-)

I will always be an advocate for pumps, even if you use less of one later. Feel that momentum bringing you forward, Carry the momentum back into the backswing. Can you feel it assist the coil? Does it matter where the momentum goes? Feel it out.

How am I doing RB? Feely-oriented enough in writing?



Agree that covers most things we'd probably see in principle. I can imagine something outside of it but it probably becomes more comical than useful at that point lol

There my Putter, Mid, Fairways would be F1 F-2 ish. I think the reason they're similar has to do with how my index finger can wrap in with the narrower rims. In all of those grips, I'm clearly supinating, but my thumb is getting a significant pressure against the disc late in the move: moves like "pushing a quarter on a tabletop"/"Hammering out"/"basketball push pass"/"backstroke" all have things in common with my arm action. I think what makes this hard to talk about in writing is the dynamic interaction between the fingers and thumb and disc late in the move, which is a huge difference in whether more forearm is actually contributing to the power athletically vs. just flopping and rolling over inertly.

I just tested my Distances again and I'm definitely closer to F2, still testing the palm but somewhere in the vicinity of F-1 to F-2 ish to get the "hammer" effect and nose angle. I already throw my drivers more consistently better, so thank you for our exchanges

Cool, I'll probably stick with this then. Now I can get to releasing the next test since I have the this ready and the throws already logged, just need to update the labels.

I added some text to clarify. Initially starting with F1P0, after firmly setting the grip, looks like F2P0, but if you didn't change anything (e.g., you hold the disc steady with your off hand while closing the grip), after opening the grip it will return to F1P0.

 

[Brychanus]

Dang, it's amazing he gets such low wobble with so much supination torque, the disc is deforming..

Yeah, it's crazy. I can't do anything close to his X-step even though I think I get "on paper" why it works. If I do more like his move in a standstill you start to understand why the interaction between the forearm muscles/fascia etc. works very "hammer-like" once the move becomes pretty vertical, and once the supination enlarges while getting a lot of pressure through the thumb on the disc. My discs come out low wobble when I throw that way (obviously not as good as his).

 

[Brychanus]

Cool, I'll probably stick with this then. Now I can get to releasing the next test since I have the this ready and the throws already logged, just need to update the labels.

I added some text to clarify. Initially starting with F1P0, after firmly setting the grip, looks like F2P0, but if you didn't change anything (e.g., you hold the disc steady with your off hand while closing the grip), after opening the grip it will return to F1P0.

Yeah one thing I suspect you're going to learn/are already learning from this is that grip is always a little dynamic once you start moving. Soooo that's part of why I'm very interested in what you're doing lol

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus do you see the same too far over toes balance issue in my full runup?

I can't tell if it's hidden by the momentum or if it's not actually present as much in this different runup style. In frame by frame it looks like I'm striding my brace forward pretty straight with balance rather than falling too far over the toes but you might see more.

 

[Brychanus]

I mean, I'll "count" a 517'-er in most conditions, still need to get the thing flying well.

Reminds me of prime Ulibarri form a bit, trending nicely.

You're still not quite accessing the full lesson of Double Dragon there - you're coming it a bit flat through the rear hip, which I think means (1) you're not getting 100% of what you can from gravity and (2) you haven't access the full load through the core quite yet or most compact shift. Notice that your rear leg doesn't get the full counterbalance yet. Getting a little more out of athletic horsepower than efficiency at least.

Overall, we would want to get you to feel more "levitated" than you do now in the reachback like Double Dragon and a little lighter on the rear foot in the X-step transition.

Some people control it with the backswing arm direction, some people it's more clear in their posture & shift.

Right now, I think if you kept everything the same and:
1. Stood up just a bit taller (more like Tamm) and
2. Made a small adjustment to the reachback direction

It might start to get you mounted onto and off of your X-step more like Tamm in transition.

This stuff gets increasingly subtle at this point in my experience and it took me a while to learn to see it.

In transition, instead of the direction of the red arrow, bring the arm back a little more like the green arrow relative to your posture (remember it's about the posture + arm unit & how they work together, regardless of trajectory). Might not need to be a big adjustment. I'm basically trying to get you to feel the DD-like "levitating" effect in transition, which is a little easier to access if you make that adjustment. Remember that as long as the shoulder isn't collapsing and it works relative to your posture and shift, the exact angle of the reachback isn't as important as the balance on the rear side heading into the shift and the extent to which you're postured to get off that foot as quickly as possible.

It's always about how the rear side coil functions as a "unit," usually takes a lot of nudging the parts vs. whole to find the best one.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I mean, I'll "count" a 517'-er in most conditions, still need to get the thing flying well.

Reminds me of prime Ulibarri form a bit, trending nicely.

You're still not quite accessing the full lesson of Double Dragon there - you're coming it a bit flat through the rear hip, which I think means (1) you're not getting 100% of what you can from gravity and (2) you haven't access the full load through the core quite yet or most compact shift. Notice that your rear leg doesn't get the full counterbalance yet. Getting a little more out of athletic horsepower than efficiency at least.

Overall, we would want to get you to feel more "levitated" than you do now in the reachback like Double Dragon and a little lighter on the rear foot in the X-step transition.

Some people control it with the backswing arm direction, some people it's more clear in their posture & shift.

Right now, I think if you kept everything the same and:
1. Stood up just a bit taller (more like Tamm) and
2. Made a small adjustment to the reachback direction

It might start to get you mounted onto and off of your X-step more like Tamm in transition.

This stuff gets increasingly subtle at this point in my experience and it took me a while to learn to see it.

In transition, instead of the direction of the red arrow, bring the arm back a little more like the green arrow relative to your posture (remember it's about the posture + arm unit & how they work together, regardless of trajectory). Might not need to be a big adjustment. I'm basically trying to get you to feel the DD-like "levitating" effect in transition, which is a little easier to access if you make that adjustment. Remember that as long as the shoulder isn't collapsing and it works relative to your posture and shift, the exact angle of the reachback isn't as important as the balance on the rear side heading into the shift and the extent to which you're postured to get off that foot as quickly as possible.

View attachment 336713

It's always about how the rear side coil functions as a "unit," usually takes a lot of nudging the parts vs. whole to find the best one.

Yeah this throw was before that front view one where I had done some more work on narrowing the reach back, however, if I throw a full runup max power now I'm still likely to revert since that's what usually happens at higher power levels.

What do you mean by "flat" on the rear hip? Flat in relation to what?

To feel rear hip coil while just standing around and doing shadow swings I've tried balancing on the back leg then rotating into that hip so that my right knee ends up in front of my left knee but without trying to move my right leg directly.