Form critique request

[Brychanus]

Yeah this throw was before that front view one where I had done some more work on narrowing the reach back, however, if I throw a full runup max power now I'm still likely to revert since that's what usually happens at higher power levels.

What do you mean by "flat" on the rear hip? Flat in relation to what?

To feel rear hip coil while just standing around and doing shadow swings I've tried balancing on the back leg then rotating into that hip so that my right knee ends up in front of my left knee but without trying to move my right leg directly.

Makes sense, muscle memory and all.

Posturally flat. Basically what most of the pros are doing is some version of the rear side of Double Dragon in transition. So rear hip will be loaded back and up relative to the front hip, then proceeding to the reverse pattern landing in the plant. Their body is tilting its balance from rear foot to front foot more than yours overall. You're looking better East to West, but kind of flattening out the whole reachback move sky-to-ground through the hips a bit unlike Tamm.

Need to get that slightly "levitating" part in the reachback.

Try an extreme vertical two-handed swing to get the feel coiling your arms all the way back around you. Like or literally golf swing.

Can then try loopghost windmill. Should be able to feel the connection and levitation with some fussing (probably). Just throw it more straight down the line (he is throwing somewhat "over the top" of his brace like I mentioned in the other thread- trajectory should be more like the green arrow in the img below). This extreme overhead move is trying to get you the vertical part of the hip separation w/ levitation/light on the rear foot in transition/natural walking.





Then re-try my backswing direction tip above.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Makes sense, muscle memory and all.

Posturally flat. Basically what most of the pros are doing is some version of the rear side of Double Dragon in transition. So rear hip will be loaded back and up relative to the front hip, then proceeding to the reverse pattern landing in the plant. Their body is tilting its balance from rear foot to front foot more than yours overall. You're looking better East to West, but kind of flattening out the whole reachback move sky-to-ground through the hips a bit unlike Tamm.

Need to get that slightly "levitating" part in the reachback.

Try an extreme vertical two-handed swing to get the feel coiling your arms all the way back around you. Like or literally golf swing.

Can then try loopghost windmill. Should be able to feel the connection and levitation with some fussing (probably). Just throw it more straight down the line (he is throwing somewhat "over the top" of his brace like I mentioned in the other thread- trajectory should be more like the green arrow in the img below). This extreme overhead move is trying to get you the vertical part of the hip separation w/ levitation/light on the rear foot in transition/natural walking.


View attachment 336716


Then re-try my backswing direction tip above.

What's the source of levitation in normal form without a windmill? Is it the fact the body has some descending motion towards the ground to brace?

 

[Brychanus]

What's the source of levitation in normal form without a windmill? Is it the fact the body has some descending motion towards the ground to brace?

A couple things working together - hop thru X-step plus posture as you reach back relative to gravity:

In the more horizontal forms it's functioning more like a lateral "hop" or athletic run or walk the more power/momentum you add even if it looks like striding (this took me a while to understand, but puzzling through how they maintain the postures they do and trying many options w/ Sidewinder's or SocraDeez's input revealed the "trick", otherwise your hips are not free to do what they are supposed to be doing). Then your drive step accounts for the rest because when you run or walk you naturally drop a bit in each stride. Running sideways in athletic posture gave me the basic idea of this.

Take that same idea, but add a little more Crow hop or shuffle hip or vertical hop, and you've got what's working in the somewhat vertical forms.

This is why I like to share that Jan Zelezny for when talking about the drive step. The important stuff really starts the step before the drive step, when then means you are setting up "free falling" toward the X-step, then you should just be maintaining or adding to that momentum in the drive step.

Tamm's step before his X/drive step works because he goes low-high, which sets up the "fall" just before his X-step lands. I find this easier to see when he throws lower lines than his max distance line. Watch him go low-high-low. The whole rear side and his body would feel "levitated" in transition.

Simon tends to stay high-high-low. GG goes high-even higher (vertical hop)-low.

I and most people find that harder to learn in transition, so sidewinder or I tend to recommend people to start taller to make it easier to "learn to fall". If you prefer low-high-low, you can try moves like this off each leg to get the feel and balance:

Last part is the reachback posture: if you make your overall move just a little more like a golfer pumping forward and back (even if you don't use a full pump-Simon's modern little elbow pump does the same), you should feel like the reachback is briefly weightless as it approaches the peak of the reachback.

The net effect of "falling" thru the X-step and all the way into the plant plus towing the "weightless" backswing is more free acceleration and less likelihood that you are blocking your own posture and hip action in transition from the good stuff. This is one of the areas of form that takes people the longest to learn, and some people never do. It really does feel like "riding down a curved ramp" or a halfpipe.

I think one thing that often confuses people is that the effect doesn't need to be big to work. It is easier to find with those extreme vertical drills for most people.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

A couple things working together - hop thru X-step plus posture as you reach back relative to gravity:

In the more horizontal forms it's functioning more like a lateral "hop" or athletic run or walk the more power/momentum you add even if it looks like striding (this took me a while to understand, but puzzling through how they maintain the postures they do and trying many options w/ Sidewinder's or SocraDeez's input revealed the "trick", otherwise your hips are not free to do what they are supposed to be doing). Then your drive step accounts for the rest because when you run or walk you naturally drop a bit in each stride. Running sideways in athletic posture gave me the basic idea of this.

Take that same idea, but add a little more Crow hop or shuffle hip or vertical hop, and you've got what's working in the somewhat vertical forms.

This is why I like to share that Jan Zelezny for when talking about the drive step. The important stuff really starts the step before the drive step, when then means you are setting up "free falling" toward the X-step, then you should just be maintaining or adding to that momentum in the drive step.

Tamm's step before his X/drive step works because he goes low-high, which sets up the "fall" just before his X-step lands. I find this easier to see when he throws lower lines than his max distance line. Watch him go low-high-low. The whole rear side and his body would feel "levitated" in transition.

Simon tends to stay high-high-low. GG goes high-even higher (vertical hop)-low.

I and most people find that harder to learn in transition, so sidewinder or I tend to recommend people to start taller to make it easier to "learn to fall". If you prefer low-high-low, you can try moves like this off each leg to get the feel and balance:

Last part is the reachback posture: if you make your overall move just a little more like a golfer pumping forward and back (even if you don't use a full pump-Simon's modern little elbow pump does the same), you should feel like the reachback is briefly weightless as it approaches the peak of the reachback.

The net effect of "falling" thru the X-step and all the way into the plant plus towing the "weightless" backswing is more free acceleration and less likelihood that you are blocking your own posture and hip action in transition from the good stuff. This is one of the areas of form that takes people the longest to learn, and some people never do. It really does feel like "riding down a curved ramp" or a halfpipe.

I think one thing that often confuses people is that the effect doesn't need to be big to work. It is easier to find with those extreme vertical drills for most people.

Thanks. This helps although its hard to see Simon as high high low to me because I don't really see him extending his knees before the plant much but in the tamm one his first right step you can easily see the knee starts more bent and then extends as he stands up on it.

I remember noticed nick kruse on his x step he seemed to stand up onto it higher but without a hop. Maybe I'll try that more. I just don't want to over do focus on vertical force into brace and become too focused on it and increase strain but it shouldn't be any more straining in my walk ups compared to the strain of my normal full run up speed anyway. Early on I thought it could be too easy to fall into a trap of just trying to brace harder and harder to throw harder so I intentionally tried to focus on other form stuff and try to feel like I wasn't just going all out aggressive brace to overcompensate.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks. This helps although its hard to see Simon as high high low to me because I don't really see him extending his knees before the plant much but in the tamm one his first right step you can easily see the knee starts more bent and then extends as he stands up on it.

I remember noticed nick kruse on his x step he seemed to stand up onto it higher but without a hop. Maybe I'll try that more. I just don't want to over do focus on vertical force into brace and become too focused on it and increase strain but it shouldn't be any more straining in my walk ups compared to the strain of my normal full run up speed anyway. Early on I thought it could be too easy to fall into a trap of just trying to brace harder and harder to throw harder so I intentionally tried to focus on other form stuff and try to feel like I wasn't just going all out aggressive brace to overcompensate.

Yes, I am mostly trying to focus you on the movement of your center of body mass. There a few ways to skin the cat in the final phase of the move. Notice that leg extension usually occurs after the force is already transferred in walking or throwing. Some people stay more compressed in the legs & direction/redirection of momentum differs a bit. So trying to focus you on the whole move. Learn to be Jan.

You can stand up higher too as some players do, but I should mention:

Nick stands up higher but blocks some of his rear leg weight shift and counterbalance due to his fundamental balance, compare to Tamm's rear leg as he commits through the release point. Tamm's rear knee drops in and rotates freely North and East a bit before the trailing leg comes arond into follow through, whereas Nick's does not. It's because Nick is still moving mostly around a vertical axis without that little bit of rearside action and "pendulum-like" part of the shift encoded in Double Dragon we've been talking about. Assuming that there is a reason all the top throwers on tour have this in common and Nick does not, Nick is probably leaving a bit on the table. Just goes to show that you can be a little off the "platonic ideal" and smash if you've got enough else working for you.

Not just an artifact of Nick's 360, evident in his basic X-step backhand throws too. If Nick's normal X-step had a weight shift more like Tamm's he would likely get more power out of it:

 

[Brychanus]

Huh, interesting. Tamm is balancing and throwing on a tilted axis. Nick appears to throw more on a vertical axis and takes his throws "over top" of his brace rather than completely behind it like Tamm. Nick tends to keep his posture tilted/leaning away a bit whereas Tamm adjusts his posture in transition to be more aggressive.


Watch the whole move in action, don't get too hung up on a given stillframe. Watch the rear legs, plane of the disc motion, shoulder line relative to the lower body, hip depth, etc.:

Is Nick, all six-foot whatever of him with elite athleticism, a case in point that this doesn't matter, or would changing it help him too? Quite interesting.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Makes sense, muscle memory and all.

Posturally flat. Basically what most of the pros are doing is some version of the rear side of Double Dragon in transition. So rear hip will be loaded back and up relative to the front hip, then proceeding to the reverse pattern landing in the plant. Their body is tilting its balance from rear foot to front foot more than yours overall. You're looking better East to West, but kind of flattening out the whole reachback move sky-to-ground through the hips a bit unlike Tamm.

Need to get that slightly "levitating" part in the reachback.

Try an extreme vertical two-handed swing to get the feel coiling your arms all the way back around you. Like or literally golf swing.

Can then try loopghost windmill. Should be able to feel the connection and levitation with some fussing (probably). Just throw it more straight down the line (he is throwing somewhat "over the top" of his brace like I mentioned in the other thread- trajectory should be more like the green arrow in the img below). This extreme overhead move is trying to get you the vertical part of the hip separation w/ levitation/light on the rear foot in transition/natural walking.


View attachment 336716


Then re-try my backswing direction tip above.

Tried the windmill drill then a bit of more regular pendulum swing after. Definitely felt easier to generate power but it was harder to control launch and nose angle (I haven't practiced it much). I wasn't hugely nose up though but it does seem more like the swoop (without pronation) that people advise against.

I think part of the reason, aside from the efficiency of a pendulum motion, that it was easier power was because it loaded the backswing more effortlessly with the momentum pulling it back. I think I could get more of that loading in my normal form with this forward weight transfer feeling of the chest pulling away from the arm as you shift your weight forward and let the arm extend back.

 

[Brychanus]

Tried the windmill drill then a bit of more regular pendulum swing after. Definitely felt easier to generate power but it was harder to control launch and nose angle (I haven't practiced it much). I wasn't hugely nose up though but it does seem more like the swoop (without pronation) that people advise against.

I think part of the reason, aside from the efficiency of a pendulum motion, that it was easier power was because it loaded the backswing more effortlessly with the momentum pulling it back. I think I could get more of that loading in my normal form with this forward weight transfer feeling of the chest pulling away from the arm as you shift your weight forward and let the arm extend back.

Yes, in general the efficiency idea there is to get the overall concepts and feel that it sounds like you connected with. Then you can start to bring the whole move more horizontal/elongated if you like!

Launch angle and nose control if it remains that vertical does take practice - not for everyone and you see less of it these days as people on tour get longer/leaner/more nimble...

 

[disc-golf-neil]

In this post after your edit the "best drill" video is the same video that you previously double posted. It seems like that video never shows a drill and just explains the mechanics, so is the drill just the swaying side to side he is showing?

Tech disc test driven development

Yeah exactly what should help here esp. when throwing out of a version of a one-legged throw like he is here. It would be a way also of testing exactly what I keep suspecting is going to be affecting the grip data as the OLD improves, for example. "Kickstand" (I like that): What I used to...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Also, for the OLD, I was doing it more in the form where SW22 shows the back toes on the ground so you can really focus on de-weighting the back leg rather than throwing like his intro throws where there is much more weight on the back leg with the heel down and some weight shift. When doing the OLD in that more pure full weight on the front leg form, it seems like it's really hard to learn tilted axis.

Maybe it would be more beneficial to focus on doing a 1 step standstill with a reverse brace leg swing into a kick the ball brace step like in the attached vid (first time trying it)?

I liked trebuchet's vid on the OLD (his updated ones) but forgot to go back to it because I kept having so many other things I wanted to work on that I was using the simplified 100% weight forward OLD to free up bandwidth to focus on other stuff and forgot there were more progressions on it that look like they lead up to the tilted axis coming more into play so I could also start defaulting to that as my warmup style or style I use when also working on other upper body stuff, or maybe something with 1 step is better for me since my plant has decent fundamentals I think.

 

[Brychanus]

I'll try to shorten whatever post is next, but I am trying to figure out how to say this thoroughly enough to prime where I am nudging you to go. I am hoping that if I can get you to do it even once you'll immediately get the point. I think/hope you will learn this faster than I did once you get that first body "aha" to click.

The Pratt drill and its real lesson
Go to 3:00 in that Pratt video. That's the drill. I cannot tell you how many times I have someone try it and they think they're doing it right, but then either (1) use open "shifting from in front" instead of closed-to-target "shifting from behind" mechanics with a compensatory balance rather than athletic balance and (2) do not get as deep as possible into the move, which is almost always related to balance problems in their X-steps and standstills. So I call it the "best drill" from that perspective because I use it as both a diagnostic and fundamental lesson. I would recommend showing you trying to do it. Sidewinder has a decade's lead of experience on me, but I can confirm that when people can't do a drill correctly, it is almost always the case that they are not implementing it in the throw correctly. Sometimes you then need to swap to other things to get things to "click" or deal with upstream causes in that case.

OLD things viewed anew
Totally understand your OLD strategy, but also been there done that and saw your lack of tilted axis right away in your techdisc vids. Probably best for me to expand here and in then in general in the thread I'm organizing. The fundamental problem is that, like the CoM, balance is a construct and not something that shows up on camera. We see the effects of being in or out of balance, but never observe it directly. I think that's why the coaching space either (1) ignores it or (2) is completely confused and delivers mixed messages about it. But I was a dancer before a disc golfer and I cannot make complete sense out of how pros move without it. I am still surprised at how my body is picking up "oh, that's what a dancer does in this or that pattern" motor learning, just in athletic posture. And Waltz has tilt built into the fundamentals from the intermediate level on up.

IMHO and experience the toes down OLD drill usually works better after you deeply encode the tilted axis as part of every throwing move. Advanced golfers usually get the rear toes down move quicker. But the CoM is covering so little distance that it can be hard to distinguish when you are (1) spinning on the front leg vertically rather than also using tilted balance and (2) actually balanced on the front leg vs. tipping off of it. I'm getting convinced it's one of those body-brain problems that takes most people additional work to get right. Which is fine because there are tools for that and then you just need patience and time!

I agree you plant side is working better than your drive side overall, though sans most of the tilted axis each way. I think if you do OLD, I would start letting at least some pressure onto the rear foot like you're showing there. SW might advise a different starting stance at this point.

In any case, in your drill move in athletic posture there, I can tell you are still not balancing on the rear leg in your kick back. You should be able to maintain the posture indefinitely before shifting forward just like Sidewinder shows in his Hershyzer drills. I think you are tipping over instead, and then when you plant you are throwing on the mostly vertical axis.

So my second recommendation is to show you doing Double Dragon standing much taller and kicking back directly at the camera letting your plant leg come back all the way more ballistically. SW and I can probably point out how to convince your brain and body to "get it" from there, and if you prefer to have more hip hinge/athletic depth after that it's fine. The point of standing taller is really just to give you access to the fullest range of motion and the largest feeling from gravity, which is one way to "hack" balance problems faster. I will always stand taller because I am less athletic than you, but the balance fundamentally works the same for any stance or stance depth.


Are all OLDs created equal? The problem with misunderstanding balance
Please remember that any time I say something like the following I am critiquing the moves and concepts, not the person. It is usually after I have been through something myself for a long time and cross-referenced other sports that I get more open about my comments.

Unfortunately, Trebuchet gets his CoM trapped between his feet and throws on a mostly vertical axis without ever being fully balanced on the front leg. His body gets trapped behind the brace and he actually just tips off the plant foot back South because he is never really balanced on it like walking or running:


He uses a "two rails" concept that does not include (1) natural locomotion or the "Figure 8" you see on DGCR or (2) tilted balance, which is part of what I mention in the "East West" edit I added in the post that cued this discussion. Here's the direct link, see the part after I wrote his "three tracks" comment:

Two lanes....... ?

cRyDnUr9dqQ I'm not sure how I feel about this. I can with more certainty say I don't 100% agree. I think I see the idea here, but... There were a few really... Weird comments and demonstrations. I can also say I don't think he understands the elephant walk/drill.

www.dgcoursereview.com

Here's Caroline Henderson making a version of Trebuchet's mistake vs Simon:

Here's a guy making a version of Trebuchet's mistake vs. Sidewinder's Ride the Bull (which encodes the same idea as all his other tilt drills, over and over):

See also 1.7 in Fundamentals document. I think more can be said and shown there which is why I will start a Tilted Axis/Spiral thread, but I don't think it did a terrible job and stating the fundamental cross-sports idea.

 

[Brychanus]

Here you go Neil. I'm going to continue to edit & expand as people interact in form critiques & in the main Thread.

Tilted Axes, Spirals, and Dynamic Balance

TL;DR: If you're already an elite athlete and top 50 thrower on tour, you're probably doing this well enough. Congratulations! If not, maybe there's a nugget or two in here you will find instructive, but it's mostly a form theory thread. "Just do it" if you actually want to learn and Understand...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I'll try to shorten whatever post is next, but I am trying to figure out how to say this thoroughly enough to prime where I am nudging you to go. I am hoping that if I can get you to do it even once you'll immediately get the point. I think/hope you will learn this faster than I did once you get that first body "aha" to click.

The Pratt drill and its real lesson
Go to 3:00 in that Pratt video. That's the drill. I cannot tell you how many times I have someone try it and they think they're doing it right, but then either (1) use open "shifting from in front" instead of closed-to-target "shifting from behind" mechanics with a compensatory balance rather than athletic balance and (2) do not get as deep as possible into the move, which is almost always related to balance problems in their X-steps and standstills. So I call it the "best drill" from that perspective because I use it as both a diagnostic and fundamental lesson. I would recommend showing you trying to do it. Sidewinder has a decade's lead of experience on me, but I can confirm that when people can't do a drill correctly, it is almost always the case that they are not implementing it in the throw correctly. Sometimes you then need to swap to other things to get things to "click" or deal with upstream causes in that case.

OLD things viewed anew
Totally understand your OLD strategy, but also been there done that and saw your lack of tilted axis right away in your techdisc vids. Probably best for me to expand here and in then in general in the thread I'm organizing. The fundamental problem is that, like the CoM, balance is a construct and not something that shows up on camera. We see the effects of being in or out of balance, but never observe it directly. I think that's why the coaching space either (1) ignores it or (2) is completely confused and delivers mixed messages about it. But I was a dancer before a disc golfer and I cannot make complete sense out of how pros move without it. I am still surprised at how my body is picking up "oh, that's what a dancer does in this or that pattern" motor learning, just in athletic posture. And Waltz has tilt built into the fundamentals from the intermediate level on up.

View attachment 336922

IMHO and experience the toes down OLD drill usually works better after you deeply encode the tilted axis as part of every throwing move. Advanced golfers usually get the rear toes down move quicker. But the CoM is covering so little distance that it can be hard to distinguish when you are (1) spinning on the front leg vertically rather than also using tilted balance and (2) actually balanced on the front leg vs. tipping off of it. I'm getting convinced it's one of those body-brain problems that takes most people additional work to get right. Which is fine because there are tools for that and then you just need patience and time!

I agree you plant side is working better than your drive side overall, though sans most of the tilted axis each way. I think if you do OLD, I would start letting at least some pressure onto the rear foot like you're showing there. SW might advise a different starting stance at this point.

In any case, in your drill move in athletic posture there, I can tell you are still not balancing on the rear leg in your kick back. You should be able to maintain the posture indefinitely before shifting forward just like Sidewinder shows in his Hershyzer drills. I think you are tipping over instead, and then when you plant you are throwing on the mostly vertical axis.

So my second recommendation is to show you doing Double Dragon standing much taller and kicking back directly at the camera letting your plant leg come back all the way more ballistically. SW and I can probably point out how to convince your brain and body to "get it" from there, and if you prefer to have more hip hinge/athletic depth after that it's fine. The point of standing taller is really just to give you access to the fullest range of motion and the largest feeling from gravity, which is one way to "hack" balance problems faster. I will always stand taller because I am less athletic than you, but the balance fundamentally works the same for any stance or stance depth.


Are all OLDs created equal? The problem with misunderstanding balance
Please remember that any time I say something like the following I am critiquing the moves and concepts, not the person. It is usually after I have been through something myself for a long time and cross-referenced other sports that I get more open about my comments.

Unfortunately, Trebuchet gets his CoM trapped between his feet and throws on a mostly vertical axis without ever being fully balanced on the front leg. His body gets trapped behind the brace and he actually just tips off the plant foot back South because he is never really balanced on it like walking or running:
View attachment 336921

He uses a "two rails" concept that does not include (1) natural locomotion or the "Figure 8" you see on DGCR or (2) tilted balance, which is part of what I mention in the "East West" edit I added in the post that cued this discussion. Here's the direct link, see the part after I wrote his "three tracks" comment:

Two lanes....... ?

cRyDnUr9dqQ I'm not sure how I feel about this. I can with more certainty say I don't 100% agree. I think I see the idea here, but... There were a few really... Weird comments and demonstrations. I can also say I don't think he understands the elephant walk/drill.

www.dgcoursereview.com

Here's Caroline Henderson making a version of Trebuchet's mistake vs Simon:

Here's a guy making a version of Trebuchet's mistake vs. Sidewinder's Ride the Bull (which encodes the same idea as all his other tilt drills, over and over):

See also 1.7 in Fundamentals document. I think more can be said and shown there which is why I will start a Tilted Axis/Spiral thread, but I don't think it did a terrible job and stating the fundamental cross-sports idea.

Should I be thinking about adding more lateral pelvic tilt into the brace? Seems like you can be on a tilted axis just be bracing in front of you so the brace has that diagonal line but I can add more or less lateral pelvic tilt to it.

 

[Brychanus]

Should I be thinking about adding more lateral pelvic tilt into the brace? Seems like you can be on a tilted axis just be bracing in front of you so the brace has that diagonal line but I can add more or less lateral pelvic tilt to it.

Yes, let your pelvis, spine, and balance work in a big unit like walking. Internalizing wireframes like these:


Balance problem: first, let's get you kicking back much more directly at the camera. Notice that SW ends up more "center balance" with his head in that tilted axis I broke down on the main forum. I think you still tend to get your balance too "over your toes" (West-East) which leads you to tip overa a bit rather than do the balanced tilt all the way South->North and vice versa. Stay as tall as you need to until you get it. You will probably feel a completely different coil quality and more balanced into it once you do.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes, let your pelvis, spine, and balance work in a big unit like walking. Internalizing wireframes like these:


Balance problem: first, let's get you kicking back much more directly at the camera. Notice that SW ends up more "center balance" with his head in that tilted axis I broke down on the main forum. I think you still tend to get your balance too "over your toes" (West-East) which leads you to tip overa a bit rather than do the balanced tilt all the way South->North and vice versa. Stay as tall as you need to until you get it. You will probably feel a completely different coil quality and more balanced into it once you do.

View attachment 336939

Cool, ty. I was trying to exaggerate the double dragon so I'll see if I do it more controlled where that balance is then move it back more.

In a throw where you start more vertical and don't have too much weight over the toes but you end up noes over toes in order to throw on hyzer, will you end up with more of the balance over toes that I have? It will just happen later and not prematurely like I'm doing?

 

[Brychanus]

Cool, ty. I was trying to exaggerate the double dragon so I'll see if I do it more controlled where that balance is then move it back more.

In a throw where you start more vertical and don't have too much weight over the toes but you end up noes over toes in order to throw on hyzer, will you end up with more of the balance over toes that I have? It will just happen later and not prematurely like I'm doing?

The balance will be "the same" as the adjustment I just prescribed, but the tilt of the entire body will sometimes give the appearance of the nose appearing more over/past the toes. This used to confuse the hell out of me and it is one of the reasons it can be really important to understand fundamental balance when watching movement. This is also one of the brilliant things about Seabas drills because he is always maximizing/orthogonalizing a principle rather than mixing them together, which can cause body and balance confusion. You always want the "same" coil, sequence, and posture as that vertical DD. Then you can adjust the whole coil and swing "unit" to the desired plane. Once you are nailing it reliably you will probably be able to integrate it and adjust it faster than the average bear, but don't rush it and cheat yourself out of the drill practice. Minimally it reduces effort, for most players it adds (often significant) distance when mastered.

Btw your relative sequence looks pretty good so hopefully this is more just a fundamental balance issue for you.

Kick/swing the leg and foot right back at us!

Lots of momentum letting the leg pull you into the balance and coil. I still practice adding as much momentum as I can.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes, let your pelvis, spine, and balance work in a big unit like walking. Internalizing wireframes like these:


Balance problem: first, let's get you kicking back much more directly at the camera. Notice that SW ends up more "center balance" with his head in that tilted axis I broke down on the main forum. I think you still tend to get your balance too "over your toes" (West-East) which leads you to tip overa a bit rather than do the balanced tilt all the way South->North and vice versa. Stay as tall as you need to until you get it. You will probably feel a completely different coil quality and more balanced into it once you do.

View attachment 336939

I was trying to keep my back leg swing too lateral, SW's right foot is vertical. That helped it seems.

 

[Brychanus]

I was trying to keep my back leg swing too lateral, SW's right foot is vertical. That helped it seems.

View attachment 336940

Now get the arm and shoulder stacked directly over the leg like his.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus do you know of a way to determine the maximum brace stride length that somebody should use based on their leg lengths?

I remember seeing a bunch of people early on working on their form on YouTube and shortening their brace step because they were doing it too long but I wonder if I was too conservative with mine and end up too vertical now and maybe a longer brace can help me be more tilted.

I rarely go over my brace a lot tho in the follow throw. At most it's usually 1 step that sometimes had a little too much back leg rotational follow through so that also makes me think it can't be overly short.

 

[sidewinder22]

@Brychanus do you know of a way to determine the maximum brace stride length that somebody should use based on their leg lengths?

I remember seeing a bunch of people early on working on their form on YouTube and shortening their brace step because they were doing it too long but I wonder if I was too conservative with mine and end up too vertical now and maybe a longer brace can help me be more tilted.

I rarely go over my brace a lot tho in the follow throw. At most it's usually 1 step that sometimes had a little too much back leg rotational follow through so that also makes me think it can't be overly short.

This is also going to depend on your forward velocity and hip mobility.

The best way to find out is to feel in total balance on plant leg in the finish. See Shawn Clement Finish Position and Width of Stance.

 

[Brychanus]

@Brychanus do you know of a way to determine the maximum brace stride length that somebody should use based on their leg lengths?

I remember seeing a bunch of people early on working on their form on YouTube and shortening their brace step because they were doing it too long but I wonder if I was too conservative with mine and end up too vertical now and maybe a longer brace can help me be more tilted.

I rarely go over my brace a lot tho in the follow throw. At most it's usually 1 step that sometimes had a little too much back leg rotational follow through so that also makes me think it can't be overly short.

This is also going to depend on your forward velocity and hip mobility.

The best way to find out is to feel in total balance on plant leg in the finish. See Shawn Clement Finish Position and Width of Stance.

A couple other specific drill things that have influenced me the most:

1) I mostly developed my "default" stride width & start people with Door Frame Drill like Sidewinder often does. I actually spent maybe 3-4 weeks on that at one point with input from Sidewinder and a couple others that was invaluable. It's remarkably effective at finding the right spacing between your rear leg and plant leg for the final part of the move to teach the low-effort leverage chain, and the posture feedback is baked into the drill. Be warned that it often does take a lot of fussy work and patience.

2) As you do drills like Double Dragon, it will also implicitly help you figure out where the optimal and natural stride range tends to be that either (1) prevents you for tipping over backwards or (2) go toppling over the brace forwards when directing the shot toward the target & ending in balance. That's kind of why I like to work on Door Frame & DD as a "package" myself now.

After going through that I noticed that my plant/brace stride would start to adjust on its own. E.g., Sidewinder at one point encouraged me to throw on a downslope. On one of the longest downhill shots near me, I would easily build more forward momentum down a sloped teepad. Even though I generally have a fairly vertical shift & bracing style (and ok but not great hip mobility), the plant stride lengthened with the forward velocity. That also helped my brain improve what happens on flat ground. Specifically, it helped me connect with the idea of "running downhill" on flat ground to build momentum, which I am currently still working on.